Why cant i get off replacement bus at Manchester?

[Confused147]

I'm trying to book a ticket on the 03:20 Replacement bus from Blackpool North to Manchester Piccadilly for Sunday 13th.

My travel details are offered like this using replacement buses:

03:20 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport (arrives 05:25)
05:30 Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly (arrives 05:55)

changes required: 1



So after further investigation I find the 03:20 from Blackpool DOES call at Manchester Piccadilly but its pick up only.

Why? who came up with this one? Have the TOC really said that passengers are required to remain seated on the bus past their stop and have their journey time unnecessarily increased with time wasting and the struggle of changing from one bus to another just to travel backwards to a stop you already been past? Its actually a stupid backwards idea whose was it?
All I want is my damn stop at Piccadilly but instead i'm given stress, fuss and delay :-x:-x:-x

 

[Bookd]

Seems barmy; you could tell the driver that you were about to be violently sick, and he would certainly let you off !

 

[Bertie the bus]

My guess is the bus driver really won't care where you get off. If it stops at Piccadilly then you will almost certainly be able to get off the bus. I used a late night RRB from Blackpool once and the driver happily dropped me off at a red light nowhere near any railway station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonder if that is a timetabling error. Traditionally those trains were "s" at Manchester, not "u", if I recall correctly. This allowed for early running.

 

[urbophile]

Some years ago I was on a Merseyrail replacement bus, wanting to get to Moorfields. I would have been much better off on the regular service bus and walking the last ten minutes: this driver pootled around the most indirect route possible. We were within a five minute walk of Moorfields station (and nearly half an hour later than the train would have been), but it was clear the driver intended to backtrack to Liverpool Central first before heading to Moorfields, which would have meant an additional ten and probably more minutes. As we drove up James Street, past the station, I asked the driver if he could drop me there (at a bus stop) to which his surreal reply was, 'I'm not a bus I'm a train, and I only stop at stations.' I pointed out that this was a station but he said it was not on his route. But common sense prevailed and he did let me dismount. I understand that replacement buses are not a taxi service and they should stop at scheduled stations, but whoever plans the itineraries needs to think flexibly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's actually a legal issue. A RRB can only serve stations or nearby if not physically possible. Otherwise it is necessary to register it as a local bus service.

 

[Jonfun]

It won't necessarily be the same bus. They might run one from Blackpool and another from Piccadilly.

 

[BestWestern]

My guess is the bus driver really won't care where you get off. If it stops at Piccadilly then you will almost certainly be able to get off the bus. I used a late night RRB from Blackpool once and the driver happily dropped me off at a red light nowhere near any railway station.

Red light district, or just red light?!

 

[tsr]

Wonder if that is a timetabling error. Traditionally those trains were "s" at Manchester, not "u", if I recall correctly. This allowed for early running.

"S" is usually a staff stop. Do you mean "d"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

"S" is usually a staff stop. Do you mean "d"?

"u" and "s" are the usual public timetable markings for "pick up only" and "set down only".

I contend that this bus may have been erroneously timetabled with the wrong one, based on my experience of the trains that used to run in that timeslot years ago (which basically picked up at Blackpool N and Preston then dropped off at stations after that, and the reverse in the other direction, as I recall). They did this mainly I think to allow for early running depending which way they went.

They showed as "Staff Train" on the displays when they were "s".

 

[tsr]

"u" and "s" are the usual public timetable markings for "pick up only" and "set down only".

I contend that this bus may have been erroneously timetabled with the wrong one, based on my experience of the trains that used to run in that timeslot years ago (which basically picked up at Blackpool N and Preston then dropped off at stations after that, and the reverse in the other direction, as I recall). They did this mainly I think to allow for early running depending which way they went.

They showed as "Staff Train" on the displays when they were "s".

Must confess I'm thinking more of the WTT and staff diagrams.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must confess I'm thinking more of the WTT and staff diagrams.

Sorry, not being staff I'm not familiar with those.

 

[Mugby]

This is nothing new. I travelled on the very same bus which the original post refers to about three years ago, the 0320 from Blackpool.

I remember noting at the time that I would have to travel to the airport and then back to Manchester from there (which I wasn't looking forward to!)
In the event, it entered Manchester along Trinity Way, round the back of Victoria, then Ancoats Street and Ducie Street to Piccadilly Station.
Myself and several others got off there with no problem.

 

[Howardh]

In the old days the night train went from Manchester Airport through Piccadilly (where it dropped down only) to Bolton the Preston then Blackpool.

So as you couldn't alight at Piccadilly, late night punters caught the train from Piccadilly to the airport and then changed to the airport - Blackpool train...and for those of us travelling to Bolton it was no more expensive as it was covered by the Evening Ranger!

They did see sense and allowed the train to pick up @ Piccadilly eventually.

However, both the train (0135??) and the cheap Evening Ranger are now a thing of the past; and even the night buses have gone, meaning after 2359 the only way back to Bolton for a drinker is a taxi.

Whether or not electrification brings a better evening service remains to be seen. Not holding...

 

[northwichcat]

That's actually a legal issue. A RRB can only serve stations or nearby if not physically possible. Otherwise it is necessary to register it as a local bus service.

I would have thought it would count as a private hire service unless the passengers directly pay the operator of the replacement bus.

Although, I'm aware of some drivers saying passengers can't be dropped off in a different place to the advertised places for insurance reasons.

 

[urbophile]

Although, I'm aware of some drivers saying passengers can't be dropped off in a different place to the advertised places for insurance reasons.

I get that. The question is, why are so many of these 'advertised places' so daft? And the routes incomprehensible. To drive within two minutes walk of an advertised station, and refuse to drop people off until the bus has done a two-mile circuit via another station, seems crazy to me.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Although, I'm aware of some drivers saying passengers can't be dropped off in a different place to the advertised places for insurance reasons.

Utter nonsense and an excuse. They can pick up and set down at any safe and legal place. So, no, they can't drop you on a motorway or roundabout, but a bus stop is fine, or any straight road without stopping restrictions. If the driver doesn't believe you, ask them who the insurance company is. They won't know, and therefore can't possibly know what the insurance terms are! Most operators are self-insured anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Safe and legal are the main things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Utter nonsense and an excuse. They can pick up and set down at any safe and legal place. So, no, they can't drop you on a motorway or roundabout, but a bus stop is fine, or any straight road without stopping restrictions. If the driver doesn't believe you, ask them who the insurance company is. They won't know, and therefore can't possibly know what the insurance terms are! Most operators are self-insured anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Safe and legal are the main things.

A rail replacement bus can only pick up/set down at a railway station or a pre-arranged nearby subsitute. If it does otherwise, it needs to have been registered as a local bus service, which as it wouldn't have been would then be breaking the law.

I doubt there would be any *insurance* issue because coaches are insured for general use.

Unless registered as "hail and ride" it would also be a breach of the registration for a "normal stopping" local bus service to pick up/set down other than at bus stops.

 

[northwichcat]

If it does otherwise, it needs to have been registered as a local bus service, which as it wouldn't have been would then be breaking the law.

Can you prove that is the case? A bus service must be registered if it collects fares off passengers and there's less than 25 miles between stops. If standard rules apply for RRB services then they must be registered as bus services unless the stops are more than 25 miles apart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can you prove that is the case? A bus service must be registered if it collects fares off passengers and there's less than 25 miles between stops. If standard rules apply for RRB services then they must be registered as bus services unless the stops are more than 25 miles apart.

I don't know the relevant legislation, but in my understanding a rail replacement bus is legally a train.

They certainly are not registered (the list of registrations is a matter of public record in a document called "Notices and Proceedings").

 

[weastebusdepot]

The question is, would you expect the train to drop you right outside your house just because you happened to live next to where it was passing? If not, why should the rail replacement bus?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know the relevant legislation, but in my understanding a rail replacement bus is legally a train.

They certainly are not registered (the list of registrations is a matter of public record in a document called "Notices and Proceedings").

If you don't know the legislation you can't say it's a legal requirement.

I'm sure your aware that a coach for 50 people can be hired privately, the organiser can pay the coach company £500 and ask each person travelling to pay £10 to him/her and that wouldn't be classed as a bus service which needs registering. If the operator of the RRB doesn't take any fares couldn't it work under the same rules as a private hire?

 

[northwichcat]

The question is, would you expect the train to drop you right outside your house just because you happened to live next to where it was passing? If not, why should the rail replacement bus?

Slight difference - unless you have a platform on the rail line by your house it would be unsafe for you to alight. Although, with any form of public transport you should expect to be dropped off and picked up at an advertised stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you don't know the legislation you can't say it's a legal requirement.

You're as good at conjecture, to be fair

I'm sure your aware that a coach for 50 people can be hired privately, the organiser can pay the coach company £500 and ask each person travelling to pay £10 to him/her and that wouldn't be classed as a bus service which needs registering. If the operator of the RRB doesn't take any fares couldn't it work under the same rules as a private hire?

It would if the stops, allowing boarding and alighting, were less than <the required distance, I forget, it's upthread> apart and those fares were taken from members of the public.

It does not matter *who* takes the fares, be that the driver, conductor, railway, online, whatever. It matters that they are taken from members of the public for the purposes of transport.

Most private hires involve picking people up and taking them to a specific place, which are exempt on grounds of passengers not being able to make journeys of less than <the distance>.

 

[al78]

The question is, would you expect the train to drop you right outside your house just because you happened to live next to where it was passing? If not, why should the rail replacement bus?

Aside from the fact that roads operate completely differently to railways, and aside from it being a strawman argument anyway, sometimes a bus driver will drop you off where there isn't a bus stop. For example, the bus service that runs from Aviemore to the Cairngorm ski centre will drop you off at the Sugarbowl car park on request (just over a mile before the ski centre car park), which is not a scheduled stop, but the bus passes it directly and it is safe for the bus to pull in and stop.

 

[DuncanS]

Growing up in rural Scotland it was far more common to see people randomly standing at the end of Farm roads than it was to see them at a bus stop.

 

[Sybic26]

Rail Replacement services do not required to be registered with the Traffic Commissioners Office.

Drivers of such services are told that they can only pick up and set down passengers at the points shown on their running board. They should not be stopping at any other points. If someone got off a service at a non authorised bus stop and was injured, that person would have no claim on either the operator or TOC. The coach driver may however be banned from operating any further rail replacement services.

After all the services are replacing a train. You could not ask the train driver to stop a station where it is not scheduled to.

Many services registered bus services are registered as being Hail and Ride. In such instances, passengers will be both picked up and set down at a safe point, this could be a road end or layby.

 

[Intercity 225]

You're as good at conjecture, to be fair



It would if the stops, allowing boarding and alighting, were less than <the required distance, I forget, it's upthread> apart and those fares were taken from members of the public.

It does not matter *who* takes the fares, be that the driver, conductor, railway, online, whatever. It matters that they are taken from members of the public for the purposes of transport.

Most private hires involve picking people up and taking them to a specific place, which are exempt on grounds of passengers not being able to make journeys of less than <the distance>.

I know you say most but how do school buses operate within the requirements? When I was at school (granted, this was over 15 years ago) sixth formers were required to pay if they wanted to travel on the privately hired school bus whereas year 7-11 students were exempt. I can remember sixth formers being issued with tickets following payment too. All students would have been able to travel between the same destinations (and stops in some instances) using the public bus.

 

[northwichcat]

School and works buses don't have to be registered unless members of the public can also travel on them. In Greater Manchester there's a large number of school buses registered as public bus services and the public could travel on them if they wanted to.

 

[sheff1]

After all the services are replacing a train. You could not ask the train driver to stop a station where it is not scheduled to.

I have been on many a train which has stopped to let someone off at a station where it was not scheduled to stop.