Why are trainspotters being treated like terriorists?

[LilLoaf]

Oh my god, AlexS, what a way to go on about something. I only have a differant opinion.

So if drivers are blinded by camera flashes, try going into a nightclub in Newcastle, you may be off work for a week, too many bright lights.


The whole point of the forum is so people can share infomation on the railway, have a polite chat, and share their views.
I share my views get head bitten.

For crying out load admin just lock this thread before people start threating me anymore than they already are. Can i suggest AlexS gets a warning for that little outburst.

 

[D306]

So if drivers are blinded by camera flashes, try going into a nightclub in Newcastle, you may be off work for a week, too many bright lights.

does a single person look after all the people there? no. Face it, using a flash will get you kicked out of stations resulting in other enthusiasts not being allowed onto the station

 

[507 001]

Can we all GROW UP and get back on topic please?
This is a discussion forum not a playground argument.




Its not just trainspotters who get treated like terrorists i'm afraid. It happens to photographers in general, for example in Liverpool photographers are not allowed to shoot in metquarter (at all) or in Liverpool one without permission. I myself have been stopped by police while with a friend, both of us with entry level D-SLR's, were stopped outside St Georges hall and asked very sternly "What are you doing?"

They did become very friendly after we explained that we were shooting for our photography GCSE, turns out that he was a keen photographer himself :roll:

 

[yorkie]

For crying out load admin just lock this thread before people start threating me anymore than they already are. Can i suggest AlexS gets a warning for that little outburst.

No you can't, because that's called backseat moderating.

I did ask you earlier, nicely, not to persue this. I even sent you a PM with some advice.

And we've been through this before, with the same result.

You just make enthusiasts look stupid with terrible spelling/grammar, and a poor attitude as well as not really making much sense. And all this over arguing for the right to take poor quality photos with flash - as has been pointed out before, flash does NOT help when taking photos of trains! (unless you have a flash worth several thousand quid that can light the whole train up!)

 

[Guinness]

For crying out load admin just lock this thread before people start threating me anymore than they already are. Can i suggest AlexS gets a warning for that little outburst.

That's hardly an outburst. You need to grow some balls.

 

[O L Leigh]

Learn to be like the reed that bends with the breeze, grasshopper. True wisdom comes not from believing that we know everything but in acknowledging that we know almost nothing.

I'm not intending to be unfriendly, but you can be very stubborn. Your views are respected, as is your right to hold them, but sometimes what we believe we know is wrong and needs a little correction. Debate is not about undoing someone else's arguments but about turning the chess board around to give your "opponent" a different perspective. For that we all need to respect everyone else but be prepared to change our position. If you can do that a little more you will become a better forum member and find that people will like you a little more.

O L Leigh

 

[P156KWJ]

Oh my god, AlexS, what a way to go on about something. I only have a differant opinion.

So if drivers are blinded by camera flashes, try going into a nightclub in Newcastle, you may be off work for a week, too many bright lights.


The whole point of the forum is so people can share infomation on the railway, have a polite chat, and share their views.
I share my views get head bitten.

For crying out load admin just lock this thread before people start threating me anymore than they already are. Can i suggest AlexS gets a warning for that little outburst.

cooool do trains run through nightclubs now?! :roll:

^if you didn't get that^ what I mean is it's a different concept. Nobody will be driving trains through a nightclub with strobe lights, however they will be doing so on a railway line...

 

[Max]

Its not just trainspotters who get treated like terrorists i'm afraid. It happens to photographers in general, for example in Liverpool photographers are not allowed to shoot in metquarter (at all) or in Liverpool one without permission. I myself have been stopped by police while with a friend, both of us with entry level D-SLR's, were stopped outside St Georges hall and asked very sternly "What are you doing?"

They did become very friendly after we explained that we were shooting for our photography GCSE, turns out that he was a keen photographer himself :roll:

Thankyou for getting us back towards the actual topic! Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this is exactly what happened to my college friend who is taking A-level photography! I'm not really sure there is any specific law they can quote when in a completely public place (ie. a public square as opposed to a shopping centre or railway station).

 

[D306]

http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p52172371.html

now lets see, a flash could have been used here, but it wasn't. instead, the ISO was turned up to get a suitable shutter speed. Flash isn't needed all the time, especially at dusk, like in this photo http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p51756824.html

(i'm using Davids site as I remember a bit of time ago he said something about the photo on the first link, that it was late and getting dark so he had to take it someway, even if it did mean making it grainy)

 

[90019]

Thankyou for getting us back towards the actual topic! Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this is exactly what happened to my college friend who is taking A-level photography! I'm not really sure there is any specific law they can quote when in a completely public place (ie. a public square as opposed to a shopping centre or railway station).

haha, i just misread that as 'A-level pornography'

Personally, I've never been stopped for it at all, although i have seen people stopped. This also reminds me of the rediculous campaign in London about suspicious photographers (not to mention the huge amount of spoof posters it generated )

 

[EM2]

Oh my god, AlexS, what a way to go on about something. I only have a differant opinion.

So if drivers are blinded by camera flashes, try going into a nightclub in Newcastle, you may be off work for a week, too many bright lights.

You're really not getting it are you?
When some stands in front of you with a camera to take your photo, you're expecting it to flash.
When you go into a nightclub in Newcastle, you expect flashing lights.
In both cases, you are prepared but crucially, you are not in charge of a couple of hundred tons of metal and glass, possibly travelling at over 100mph, with a few hundred other human beings on board.
A train driver, who IS in charge of all that metal and glass, is not expecting to see a bright flash in his eyeline or his vision and is therefore not prepared for it. The only bright white lights he expects to see are on a feather indicator.

 

[Donny Dave]

I've only skim read this topic, but if papers are going to enthusiasts like LilLoaf for quotes and interviews, then no wonder we are being branded as morons/imbeciles/terrorists. (Delete as applicable depending on what the papers are saying.)

LilLoaf, the ban on flash photography on and around the railways is there for a reason. Imagine this. A train is called onto a platform that is occupied by another train(both carrying for example 100 passengers). Someone takes a picture with flash. That is enough to distract the driver for a few seconds. Maybe not blind them, but enough that they're concentration shifts to the prat who took the picture. The driver could then miss the braking point, and hit the other train, causing injuries to the 200 passengers.

In your opinion, is flash photography still acceptable?

My advice to you is to grow up, and stop being such a self centered arrogant prat!

 

[D306]

The only bright white lights he expects to see are on a feather indicator.

or another train going in the opposite direction

 

[GB]

The topic of flash photography does go some way to incorporate into the original topic to the extent if you can't follow simple rules, then is it any wonder we (entusiasts) are treated the way we are?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh my god, AlexS, what a way to go on about something. I only have a differant opinion.

So if drivers are blinded by camera flashes, try going into a nightclub in Newcastle, you may be off work for a week, too many bright lights.


The whole point of the forum is so people can share infomation on the railway, have a polite chat, and share their views.
I share my views get head bitten.

For crying out load admin just lock this thread before people start threating me anymore than they already are. Can i suggest AlexS gets a warning for that little outburst.

No one has threatend you from what I can see.

Flash photography is a serious issue so I hope this thread does not get locked in the hope that the message may just get through.

 

[LilLoaf]

or another train going in the opposite direction

Or me taking a photo....

Anyone ever wondered why this has only been an issue recently. Next time i am in a train cab (tuesday) i'm going to look at for this i dig further into the issue and ask a few more drivers not just American ones.


If you's think you have a point fine, but i also have a point. Watch out for me out and about on friday i taking pictures around the Manchester area.

 

[GB]

Or me taking a photo....

Anyone ever wondered why this has only been an issue recently. Next time i am in a train cab (tuesday) i'm going to look at for this i dig further into the issue and ask a few more drivers not just American ones.


If you's think you have a point fine, but i also have a point. Watch out for me out and about on friday i taking pictures around the Manchester area.

This "issue" has been there quite a considerable amount of time.

 

[D306]

Or me taking a photo....

How stupid.


Just face it, listen to us then you don't have to bother asking other drivers. This is the last your gonna hear of me in this thread as I can't be arsed anymore with such an arrogant brat who doesn't listen to other people who've been photting trains for longer than you

 

[Phoenix]

Or me taking a photo....

Anyone ever wondered why this has only been an issue recently. Next time i am in a train cab (tuesday) i'm going to look at for this i dig further into the issue and ask a few more drivers not just American ones.


If you's think you have a point fine, but i also have a point. Watch out for me out and about on friday i taking pictures around the Manchester area.

Fine go do it you don't need to tell us all about it half of us are bored of this thread now let alone if it went any further.

 

[Mintona]

Or me taking a photo....

Anyone ever wondered why this has only been an issue recently. Next time i am in a train cab (tuesday) i'm going to look at for this i dig further into the issue and ask a few more drivers not just American ones.


If you's think you have a point fine, but i also have a point. Watch out for me out and about on friday i taking pictures around the Manchester area.

I shall advise Manchester Control of your plans and they will tell all drivers/conductors to be extra vigilant, as now there is an added risk. As if the railways aren't dangerous enough, you are making it worse.

 

[Metroland]

An MP has been stopped and searched by police officers under anti-terror laws after he was seen taking photographs near a railway station.

Andrew Pelling, MP for Croydon Central, aroused suspicion when he was taking pictures of a cycle path in his constituency because he was collecting evidence about the problems caused to cyclists by maintenance works.

When the two officers confronted him, he presented them with his Commons pass as proof of identity. But the police continued to question him and they searched his bag before issuing him with a stop-and-search notice and letting him go. No further action was taken.

The MP said later it was "pleasing to see just how vigilant" the police had been. A police spokeswoman confirmed that a search had been carried out under section 44 of the Terrorism Act.

Pelling was elected in 2005 as a Conservative MP. But he had the Tory whip withdrawn after being arrested in 2007 in connection with an alleged assault and, even though he subsequently was not charged, he now sits in the Commons as an independent.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/07/uksecurity-terrorism

 

[Chilled Phill]

If you are calling a driver with experience incompitent and unfit for his job whilst your saying 'ooh I've cabbed a train so I know all about it' I find that is attitude that reflects shallow thinking. You should realise that if a bright light flashes and you are not expecting it, you will be affected. Flashes on cameras may only show for a fraction of a second but are extremely bright. Also, you obviously don't know about photography. I hardly ever use my flash. To prove it I have two examples (note that the one taken with flash was accidental and I put my hands up and admit I was at falt so don't bother pointing that out).

with flash

without flash (yeah I know it's a bit crap, but I didn't have a tripod).

And one last thing LilLoaf, learn to bloody type!

Nice. Indeed, a higher exposure time with a camera on a tripod makes better pictures than with the flash because flash fired photos are less exposed for obvious reasons. Although everybody already knew that, I feel...

Anyway, please can we go back to what Phoenix suggested and discuss stations which have staff that are polite rail enthusiasts.

Btw, last time I checked, this was supposed to be about BTP using terrorism legislation to get rid of rail enthusiasts NOT if flash photography should be allowed on rail premises or not...

 

[EE Type 3]

Would dread to think what the poor gentleman in coach B with us on 221102 t'other day thought when we had a bit of a random flail...

You were lucky he wasn't an old war hero. Imagine what would happen then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How stupid.


Just face it, listen to us then you don't have to bother asking other drivers. This is the last your gonna hear of me in this thread as I can't be arsed anymore with such an arrogant brat who doesn't listen to other people who've been photting trains for longer than you

No one can be bothered to reply to The Prize Tit anymore, I'm losing the will to live reading his posts. As far as I see it he's going to have alot of explaining to do when that flash does go off on a station.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p52172371.html

now lets see, a flash could have been used here, but it wasn't. instead, the ISO was turned up to get a suitable shutter speed. Flash isn't needed all the time, especially at dusk, like in this photo http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p51756824.html

(i'm using Davids site as I remember a bit of time ago he said something about the photo on the first link, that it was late and getting dark so he had to take it someway, even if it did mean making it grainy)

Indeed, the first shot was getting quite late, so as the train was only doing about 15mph at that point, I rammed the shutter speed down and knocked the ISO up. You do not need flash to photograph trains. I tried with what I could use, and it came out ok (not the best but I like it). It was either that or pack up and go home, seeing as it's three 37s there was no chance of the last one

 

[34067James]

I've just had a read of the Daily Mail flailing article... It makes me laugh how they blow the story completly out of the water by saying the Peak Army make Nazi Style saluts!! It's a flail and it's most certainly nothing to do with the Nazis! Do your research Daily FAIL!!

Its infact a Roman salut which was adopted by Hitler/Nazi Party ,then so many years later railway enthusiast started to use it. Its just a fact that now days people seen doing it think your Nazi's.

The thing with flash photography is I think it only blinds the driver if he looks straight at the the flash, though is it the same with lighting ? That Torndao video bloody hell the amount off people there

Anyway it was not just the Daily mail about this The Sun had a bit too, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2094122.ece

James

 

[adambro]

I must say this is an interesting thread although I haven't really learnt anything new. Two things I knew and just seem to be confirmed more are one, that yorkie is a top bloke, and two, that some spotters through their arrogance will likely spoil things for the rest of us.

Our resident flasher LilLoaf seems to have missed my previous comment or perhaps chosen to ignore it, either way I'll summarise it again. It doesn't matter which drivers he talks to who say they aren't bothered by it, it hardly takes a genius to realise that a load of camera flashes going off pointing straight in your direction is going to be a little irritating whilst these people go about their work.

The railways are there for the transport of passengers and freight, they are not there as some playground for train spotters and so those who choose to engage in the hobby should appreciate that there is no right for them to loiter on platforms, they are accommodated by the railways on the basis that they don't cause any trouble. As such, the industry is perfectly free to regulate against the use of camera flashes and the like if it benefits their drivers. There need not be any good safety justification but I suspect there is in this case.

 

[LilLoaf]

ambro - The railways are there for the transport of passengers and freight, they are not there as some playground for train spotters and so those who choose to engage in the hobby should appreciate that there is no right for them to loiter on platforms

last time i checked its a free country people can go where they liked as long as they arn't causeing trouble.



Oh and sorry if i've annoyed " 1 or 2 " people on here. That was not my intention, i just wanted to put my opionion forward. Wish i never bothered, i never realised when i joined this forum that i had to think like eveyone else. At the end of the day we all have our own opinions.

I will certainly think carfully about the way i take photo's in furture to make sure i do not distract the drivers, not saying i'll turn the flash off (don't have a good camera to start with) but i will certainly wait till train stops before taking a photo.

 

[90019]

last time i checked its a free country people can go where they liked as long as they arn't causeing trouble.

Not if it's private land you can't.
And I'm not sure about this, but I think railway stations are private land.

 

[Pumbaa]

All stations are owned by Network Rail, which is not-for-profit private company. So yes, private property

 

[EM2]

All stations are owned by Network Rail, which is not-for-profit private company. So yes, private property

In fact, the whole of the railway is private property

 

[90019]

In fact, the whole of the railway is private property

Yeah, i thought so.

So when you're in a station taking photos, they have every right to tell you to leave (and I believe they can use 'reasonable force' if necessary) and you have to abide by the rules they have, which includes not using the flash.

From the BTP:

You are not allowed to use flash photography on platforms as it may distract the attention of train drivers and train dispatch staff and is therefore a potential safety hazard

 

[jopsuk]

Not if it's private land you can't.
And I'm not sure about this, but I think railway stations are private land.

They are- but even publicly owned land can be "private" as far as trespass laws (England and Wales)/access laws (Scotland) are concerned.