why are there no late night trains on SWT network

[anme]

When one of the rail mags reviewed late night departures a few years ago SWT were considered one of the better TOCs for late night departures from London, if you ignored those actually running an all night service.

Which sounds a bit like saying Slough is the biggest city in UK if you ignore all the cities that are bigger.

 

[Bookd]

On the original point for some reason (presumably to do with stock positioning) the 23.50 Reading is only 4 cars rather than 8. On Fridays and Saturdays it is so rammed that there would be no chance of a fight breaking out as no-one would have room to start one!

 

[tsr]

Here was me thinking the last Southern metro from London Victoria at 0042 is a bit early on a Friday night...

Its amazing how living in London can really skew your sense of perspective on things like this

I frequent the 0042 Victoria-East Croydon, and I've never known it to be full and standing except in the most extreme circumstances, including Fridays and Saturdays. Given the potential of the West End I think this is fairly telling. It's a ghost train early in the week, really - last time I was on it on a Monday and Tuesday, there were a couple of stops where nobody got on or off. This does not usually apply in that bit of South London!

The major stations are served by the all-night service, as well as the 0100 Victoria-Brighton immediately afterwards, which gives you an extra 15 minutes to enjoy in the capital if you live anywhere around Clapham/Battersea, Croydon, Purley and so on. There is probably demand to serve Balham, Streatham Common and Norbury overnight - but the night buses are the status quo and do at least provide a door-to-door service for more people. Additionally you cannot serve Streatham Common-Selhurst inclusive on some nights due to engineering work. If the level of custom really required it, there could be stops on the "overnights" to Three Bridges.

 

[All Line Rover]

The last direct train from Leeds to London is at 20:45. The last train of the day from Manchester to London is at 21:15. These are too early, but 23:50 is more than adequate regardless of the route.

 

[Bigfoot]

On the original point for some reason (presumably to do with stock positioning) the 23.50 Reading is only 4 cars rather than 8. On Fridays and Saturdays it is so rammed that there would be no chance of a fight breaking out as no-one would have room to start one!

Has been an 8 for 6 plus months....

 

[Starmill]

The last direct train from Leeds to London is at 20:45. The last train of the day from Manchester to London is at 21:15. These are too early, but 23:50 is more than adequate regardless of the route.

I don't think you can do too much complaining about the last GR train into King's Cross - 1935 Edinburgh to London, arriving 0108!

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think you can do too much complaining about the last GR train into King's Cross - 1935 Edinburgh to London, arriving 0108!

Unless you're doing a much shorter journey in which case leaving Edinburgh at 2100 is a fairly early last train.

Last trains like that (and the 2045 from Leeds) are what cause me to resort to coaches sometimes.

 

[DarloRich]

We get a decent late LM service into & out of Euston. The late (early?) trains are always fun!

 

[Starmill]

Unless you're doing a much shorter journey in which case leaving Edinburgh at 2100 is a fairly early last train.

Last trains like that (and the 2045 from Leeds) are what cause me to resort to coaches sometimes.

What would help for Leeds would be a Leeds > Doncaster at around 2200 in order to connect with the 1935 Edinburgh > London Kings Cross there (2243). Hard to believe there isn't a train available for such a run at that time of day.

 

[clagmonster]

There is probably demand to serve Balham, Streatham Common and Norbury overnight - but the night buses are the status quo and do at least provide a door-to-door service for more people. Additionally you cannot serve Streatham Common-Selhurst inclusive on some nights due to engineering work. If the level of custom really required it, there could be stops on the "overnights" to Three Bridges.

All of the aforementioned shacks have both slow and fast line platforms. All of the overnights are booked an unadvertised stop at Selhurst. I have seen many a normal make use of this.

 

[tsr]

All of the aforementioned shacks have both slow and fast line platforms. All of the overnights are booked an unadvertised stop at Selhurst. I have seen many a normal make use of this.

They do - however, engineering works can and do mean that both the Thameslink and Southern branded services can divert from Selhurst to call at Norwood Junction instead. Overnight stops at either are staff stops only and as such there is no obligation to provide a passenger service to either station. Providing a passenger service would mean that replacement transport would always need to be provided during engineering work. This may not be cost-effective given other bus options in the area being more efficient than a replacement bus a couple of times an hour calling at railway stations only.

You could make extra public calls, not just at Selhurst, if the demand really, really existed, but also consider this: the overnights have extremely tight diagrams to make the most of stock and crew availability. They already experience numerous short terminations and increasingly end up skipping stops too. Adding two or three extra stations would slow the service down considerably and eat into turnaround times. It would also result in roughly double the number of unstaffed stations being served. You would not be able to lock up several of the stations overnight so you need to consider the security aspects in inner South London.

Given how quiet the overnights can be in the early part of the week, and even at other times of the week during parts of the year, it could at most end up only being cost-effective to slow the service down to call at additional stops on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. This would add complexity to the timetable, and mean drunk passengers would be confused about which nights the train actually called at their station. You can take it from me and my front-line experiences that this is NOT something you want.

Instead, why not serve stations which don't have overnight public transport, like the glaringly obvious example of Redhill - it's staffed overnight, timings allow trains to be routed through the centre "Main" lines anyway, there are already irregular staff stops and those attract more passengers than most stops on the 0042 Victoria-East Croydon, and lastly it's a train crew depot and major railhead for crew travelling to other areas...

 

[deltic]

The last direct train from Leeds to London is at 20:45. The last train of the day from Manchester to London is at 21:15. These are too early, but 23:50 is more than adequate regardless of the route.

Not sure there is much demand for later services and I always wondered whether there was a reticence to timetable anything into London after the underground has closed down - the last ECML service always used to have a note saying there was no guarantee it would arrive before the last tubes had gone

 

[Andyh82]

Always a bit of a funny rule, as night buses are still available, outside Kings Cross more plentiful than many areas have during the day. Plus of course there are still taxis.

 

[JonathanH]

They do - however, engineering works can and do mean that both the Thameslink and Southern branded services can divert from Selhurst to call at Norwood Junction instead. Overnight stops at either are staff stops only and as such there is no obligation to provide a passenger service to either station. Providing a passenger service would mean that replacement transport would always need to be provided during engineering work. This may not be cost-effective given other bus options in the area being more efficient than a replacement bus a couple of times an hour calling at railway stations only.

You could make extra public calls, not just at Selhurst, if the demand really, really existed, but also consider this: the overnights have extremely tight diagrams to make the most of stock and crew availability. They already experience numerous short terminations and increasingly end up skipping stops too. Adding two or three extra stations would slow the service down considerably and eat into turnaround times. It would also result in roughly double the number of unstaffed stations being served. You would not be able to lock up several of the stations overnight so you need to consider the security aspects in inner South London.

Given how quiet the overnights can be in the early part of the week, and even at other times of the week during parts of the year, it could at most end up only being cost-effective to slow the service down to call at additional stops on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. This would add complexity to the timetable, and mean drunk passengers would be confused about which nights the train actually called at their station. You can take it from me and my front-line experiences that this is NOT something you want.

Instead, why not serve stations which don't have overnight public transport, like the glaringly obvious example of Redhill - it's staffed overnight, timings allow trains to be routed through the centre "Main" lines anyway, there are already irregular staff stops and those attract more passengers than most stops on the 0042 Victoria-East Croydon, and lastly it's a train crew depot and major railhead for crew travelling to other areas...

Overnight stops at Redhill (well at least the 0100 from Victoria) was meant to have happened by now under the GTR contract but presumably either

a) Network Rail are still dragging their feet on working out a way of ensuring that they can operate to Redhill using one line enabling engineering work to take place safely on the other; or

b) GTR aren't particularly interested as it is the least of their worries.

As you have written before, it is unusual for Redhill to be shut overnight from both directions so it ought to be possible to either have passengers circulate via Gatwick Airport.

On the other hand, I expect that Redhill customers who want to travel at that time of night are prepared to put up with stumping up for a taxi from Horley back home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the original point for some reason (presumably to do with stock positioning) the 23.50 Reading is only 4 cars rather than 8. On Fridays and Saturdays it is so rammed that there would be no chance of a fight breaking out as no-one would have room to start one!

Hasn't that changed? Diagrams posted elsewhere suggest that the 23.50 Reading is now 8-450. Previously, it had to share a berth at Staines C.H.S. with a unit off another route but it looks like the last three Readings (8-450) and last two terminators from Waterloo (both 5-458) now get the four available berths.

How many of the berths at Staines C.H.S. are suitable for a 10-car train?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Frankly - the night bus coverage in most of London is now far superior than what it was in say the 1980's - and there has to be a balance between the outer limits - say beyond Croydon or Surbiton , with the need to do track inspections and routine maintenance.

 

[Bigfoot]

Hasn't that changed? Diagrams posted elsewhere suggest that the 23.50 Reading is now 8-450. Previously, it had to share a berth at Staines C.H.S. with a unit off another route but it looks like the last three Readings (8-450) and last two terminators from Waterloo (both 5-458) now get the four available berths.

How many of the berths at Staines C.H.S. are suitable for a 10-car train?

I already said it changed about 6 months ago. But then noone seems to read threads.

Staines C.H.S has 2 8 and 2 10 car roads. All fully operational now.

 

[VisualAcid]

Having a last Bath to Bristol train ad 01:16ish but 23:11 the other way was always a bit annoying

 

[Scott M]

To be honest you should be relatively grateful for such a late service, not many get that.

I always see it that beyond midnight I'm 'having a late one', and therefore I'm accepting that I'm either gonna have to take a cab or wait for the first train.

What time is your first train, out of interest?

 

[radamfi]

The lack of overnight service on SWT is the main reason I don't live on that network.

 

[clagmonster]

They do - however, engineering works can and do mean that both the Thameslink and Southern branded services can divert from Selhurst to call at Norwood Junction instead. Overnight stops at either are staff stops only and as such there is no obligation to provide a passenger service to either station. Providing a passenger service would mean that replacement transport would always need to be provided during engineering work. This may not be cost-effective given other bus options in the area being more efficient than a replacement bus a couple of times an hour calling at railway stations only.

You could make extra public calls, not just at Selhurst, if the demand really, really existed, but also consider this: the overnights have extremely tight diagrams to make the most of stock and crew availability. They already experience numerous short terminations and increasingly end up skipping stops too. Adding two or three extra stations would slow the service down considerably and eat into turnaround times. It would also result in roughly double the number of unstaffed stations being served. You would not be able to lock up several of the stations overnight so you need to consider the security aspects in inner South London.

Given how quiet the overnights can be in the early part of the week, and even at other times of the week during parts of the year, it could at most end up only being cost-effective to slow the service down to call at additional stops on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. This would add complexity to the timetable, and mean drunk passengers would be confused about which nights the train actually called at their station. You can take it from me and my front-line experiences that this is NOT something you want.

Instead, why not serve stations which don't have overnight public transport, like the glaringly obvious example of Redhill - it's staffed overnight, timings allow trains to be routed through the centre "Main" lines anyway, there are already irregular staff stops and those attract more passengers than most stops on the 0042 Victoria-East Croydon, and lastly it's a train crew depot and major railhead for crew travelling to other areas...

I hadn't considered the possibility of a Vic diverting via Palace to make the staff stop at Norwood Jn instead, I suppose when that happens there is a third pair of units out and presumably at least one extra driver and guard. As you say, the diagrams are tight with little turnround time at Three Bridges and Vic.

Are the side entrances to all the intermediate shacks actually locked after the last train then? I had always thought that the booking offices were closed and the side entrances left open while the station was unstaffed.

 

[pethadine82]

23.50 is a woefully early last train. I would expect a train service to end at 2am.

If I go out with friends, we will have dinner about 7.30pm then that would finish about 9 ish, then on to a bar.
by the time we have a few drinks its about 1am, get to waterloo to make a 2am train.

Sounds very reasonable, and not a huge request.

 

[Deerfold]

23.50 is a woefully early last train. I would expect a train service to end at 2am.

If I go out with friends, we will have dinner about 7.30pm then that would finish about 9 ish, then on to a bar.
by the time we have a few drinks its about 1am, get to waterloo to make a 2am train.

Sounds very reasonable, and not a huge request.

There's about 6 lines in the country that run that late. Sadly, many, many linest don't even run as late as 11.

 

[TheEdge]

23.50 is a woefully early last train. I would expect a train service to end at 2am.

If I go out with friends, we will have dinner about 7.30pm then that would finish about 9 ish, then on to a bar.
by the time we have a few drinks its about 1am, get to waterloo to make a 2am train.

Sounds very reasonable, and not a huge request.

Would you now? 23.50 is woefully early? Round here there almost an hour later than all last trains. To me 23.50 seems fairly reasonable. If you are grown up enough to stay out getting bladdered till 2am you are old enough to find your own way home. Sunday to Thursday trains would be empty and pointless, Friday and Saturday they would be utter hell and spend more time stopped with police dragging people off than moving.

Not long ago many of the great and good (read councillors and upper middle class types) lobbied for the last Norwich - Sheringham train to run at 23.05 rather than 22.45 on a Friday and Saturday so, and I quote, "they could stay to the end of a show". So it has been. And those people probably used it once before realising that little shift had made an already bad train horrid. All it has done is given the idiots 20 minutes to down another few pints or shots.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Yeah I did also think that 23:50 is hardly a bad service. I reckon most theatre shows and gig venues (excluding your bigger ones like Wembley or the o2) would be finished in time for that train. Also, the Waterloo-Reading line is probably not SWT's biggest priority. There will be far more customer demand for services down the bigger and busier SWML (as demonstrated by the Soton service mentioned). Also, a quick check on National Rail shows three more trains departing, two for Staines and one for Kingston via Richmond, after the 23:50 and three services departing for Reading from Paddington (and beyond infact as one of them carries onto Oxford). So really, the only section left without a service after 23:50 is the section of stations between Staines and Reading.

So yeah, not really agreeing with you tbh.

From my experience Waterloo to Reading services regularly leave London "Standing room only" as late as the 22:20. I do not know how quickly the loading drops off after this time. Mind you I have had to stand on these services at 9am on a Sunday morning. There does not seem to be an off peak on this line any more. Travelling to and from Feltham I often resort the the Houslow loop services to get a seat.

 

[BuryBlue]

23:50 is pretty generous actually.

My last train from Cambridge to Bury on a Saturday night leaves at 22:45! You have to time your London exit perfectly (early 21:30 bath at KGX) or face either a) (if you're not too late) a train to Stowmarket and a £25 ish cab home or b) (if you're really unlucky) a £60 cab fare from Cambridge.

I really hope the new franchise improves on this. Bury has amazingly crap train service for the size of town that it is and the potential for growth that's there.

 

[miami]

I really hope the new franchise improves on this. Bury has amazingly crap train service for the size of town that it is and the potential for growth that's there.

Last tram is 23:52 from Victoria

 

[BuryBlue]

Last tram is 23:52 from Victoria

Haha, sadly I forgot the suffix - St Edmunds.

 

[Deerfold]

Last tram is 23:52 from Victoria

Did you miss the references to London and Cambridge?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would you now? 23.50 is woefully early? Round here there almost an hour later than all last trains. To me 23.50 seems fairly reasonable. If you are grown up enough to stay out getting bladdered till 2am you are old enough to find your own way home.

I assume this must be a different person to the 'pethadine82' that had extreme difficulty getting to Marylebone to exchange his defective season ticket hock:

 

[Envy123]

23.50 is a woefully early last train. I would expect a train service to end at 2am.

If I go out with friends, we will have dinner about 7.30pm then that would finish about 9 ish, then on to a bar.
by the time we have a few drinks its about 1am, get to waterloo to make a 2am train.

Sounds very reasonable, and not a huge request.

That's much later than my last GN train to New Southgate.