Why are the frequencies so poor on the NLL?

[mrmartin]

Hi all,

I just cannot fathom why the frequencies are so poor on the NLL. Services are generally pretty busy off peak when it is 6tph - could easily be 8tph and still busy.

The biggest joke is after 8/9pm when it often drops to one every 20 or 30 minutes. These services are generally packed, so it's not from lack of use. Every time I've got on the 11.30ish service (often the last of the day) it's usually standing room only from Stratford.

Finally, why do services finish so early? The last train from some of the stations are just after 11pm!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe during the day a lot of paths are taken up by freight heading across London, generally to Felixstowe, so this limits what can be done to passenger trains, I think that's why some Clapham Jn trains terminate at Willesden Jn. Of course when the new curve opens at Ipswich a lot more freight will be trafficked via the Midlands, giving more passenger paths along the North London line. I don't know why frequencies drop after 2100 however, though I'm sure someone does.

 

[nicobobinus]

LO did a lot to improve the peak and daytime services - especially on Sundays, which was a pathetic 2tph until recently, but late evening services and first/last trains have remained largely the same. I don't understand why they feel obliged to have everything on it's way back to the depot by midnight - no other heavy rail operation in London does.

Early morning services are also a problem, given that the lines serve a lot of low income areas with people travelling to/from shift work at all hours - I used to commute between Highbury and Richmond for a 7am start - the first train got in at 7:01am, but as I was working in the station I just about winged it! That train was invariably stuffed to the gills and I'd often be standing as far as Willesden Junction. Many stations on a Sunday still don't see a train until gone 9am.

Things are still better than they were - the entire evening service on the Gospel Oak - Barking line used to consist of a single train puttering back and forth on a 90 minute service, giving up at around 10pm. If (when) that train went defective (as the 117s did), Silverlink just gave up for the night.

 

[mrmartin]

I'm not disagreeing that LO have made dramatic improvements to the service, and I can understand the freight pathing problem.

The other two issues, with late night frequencies and the end of service, I can't understand. Surely it doesn't require any new infrastructure and there must be plenty of unused rolling stock, so it seems like such an easy win for so little money.

Has TfL said anything about this?

 

[455driver]

There is a lot more freight running late evening/over-night than there is during the day.

 

[Wath Yard]

Only someone in London could describe 6 tph as a poor service!

 

[Harlesden]

Well 6 tph IS a poor service in view of the fact that the service was originally promoted as a metro style "turn up and go" service similar to the tube.

 

[Wath Yard]

So waiting on average 5 minutes for a train isn't turn up and go? Do you want a dial-a-train service?

 

[ainsworth74]

Only someone in London could describe 6 tph as a poor service!

I was thinking that! Speaking as someone where 2tph (not evenly spread and not properly clockface) is considered high frequency and the last trains are around 2200.

 

[mrmartin]

There is a lot more freight running late evening/over-night than there is during the day.

I thought this as well. You do see a few freight trains through the day, but they surely can't be holding back what is a completely resignalled line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So waiting on average 5 minutes for a train isn't turn up and go? Do you want a dial-a-train service?

Waiting on average 5 minutes isn't a massive problem, my main point is that these services can be very busy indeed offpeak. The demand is there, the infrastructure (should) be able to handle it and there is surely rolling stock sitting unused. Seems odd that it isn't increased.

 

[Wath Yard]

I would suggest the reason the trains are so busy is because the service frequency is so good. The increased frequency has encouraged more passengers to use it.

 

[nicobobinus]

I'd be interested to see if TfL/LOROL have the will to increase the off peak service any further in economic terms. Fares across the line are very low thanks to much of the service staying in zones 2 & 3 - especially outside peak hours, where a 15 mile journey can be done for £1.50. Couple that to staffing overheads which have to be pretty high with guards and all stations being staffed. Packing 'em in as standees and pricing low isn't ideal for an orbital route with long journeys, but running half empty trains isn't going to be financially viable in the long term without more subsidy support or a change to the way fares are structured. I think LOROL would want to be confident they could 'stuff' 8tph in the medium term before they actually started providing that service. Not unrealistic though, given the way ridership figures have climbed in recent years.

 

[NSEFAN]

I think until the freight gets diverted away from the NLL, you won't see much of an improvement. Is Network Rail in the process of upgrading lines in the north so these trains can take other routes? If Felixstowe freightliners could mainly be sent via Peterborough that would help a lot.

Even then, does LOROL have enough units to provide an 8tph service on the whole route all day?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well 6 tph IS a poor service in view of the fact that the service was originally promoted as a metro style "turn up and go" service similar to the tube.

They have never ever said frequencies would be 'similar to the tube' on the NLL. Various TfL reports I've seen have said that they consider a metro style 'turn up and go' service to be achieved if there are 4 tph or more...

£millions have been spent so far on getting the NLL frequency up to the 8 tph peak service, and anyone going back through all the relevant RUSs and track access applications over the last few years would actually see that what has been achieved is better than they were originally planning for...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even then, does LOROL have enough units to provide an 8tph service on the whole route all day?

You'd expect that in theory there would be enough units, but that pre-supposes that all maintenance can be done overnight. There might be a requirement for units to be maintained during the daytime off-peak, if that is what the depot capacity requires to happen. So some units could end up on half day diagrams IYSWIM.

I'd be surprised if the peak service didn't require nearly maximum achievable numbers from the current fleet. Although a 6 tph service to/from Crystal Palace has been mentioned, that might really need the assets to be sweated a bit more.

 

[Ivo]

Well 6 tph IS a poor service in view of the fact that the service was originally promoted as a metro style "turn up and go" service similar to the tube.

Some parts of LUL have just two or three trains per hour, with numerous areas having six (including two of the three Heathrow stations). And of course Olympia has literally a few trains a day, and has never had more than about 4tph in the modern era.

But as swt_passenger says, 4tph (or more accurately, one train every fifteen minutes) is considered "turn-up-and-go".

 

[mrmartin]

The problem is:

8tph/4car is not enough to cope with the peak demand, it's absolute bedlam at H&I going towards stratford day in day out in the evening peak. The worst thing is that because so many people are getting on and off the dwell times are significant and because of a lot of selfish people rush the doors as they close, causes a backlog.

6tph is acceptable frequency wise for an offpeak service, but it is still busy and getting busier. 8tph would be preferable if rolling stock was available - though I take your point on maintenance.

My main points are:

Why does the frequency drop after 8 when there is obvious demand -- and probably a lot of demand goes elsewhere as people don't bother using the overground if there is a 30 min wait at the station if they've just missed a train.

And why does the service finish so early, again obvious demand and even one extra train half hour later would make a big difference. I've had a couple of times when I've just missed a train and had to get a bus, central line right through town and then a nightbus which is a complete pain.

 

[Lewisham2221]

London Vs. The Real World....

A "complete pain" would be missing the last train and having no reasonable/obvious/affordable alternative. Only in the short sighted world of London would 6tph off peak, 8tph peak and a reasonable late night alternative be considered a poor service!

 

[90sWereBetter]

A train every 10 minutes off-peak is more than adequete for the NLL, based on my experience in August. Caught a train from Caledonian Road and Barnsbury to Willesden Junction at about 10:30 in the morning and there was plenty of empty seats.

 

[nicobobinus]

I'd hazard against taking a sample from 10:30am to be representative of the whole offpeak*. There are large chunks of inner London where public transport goes fairly quiet between the end of the morning peak and about lunchtime - less so in suburbia, where all the blue rinses go into the town centres early, and obviously the radial routes stay busy bringing people into central London. But bus services and, in my own experience, the Overground, do go pretty quiet for a while.

Afternoons get much busier on the NLL, especially at weekends with shoppers making the pilgrimage to the two Westfield centres. Sundays also draw church traffic, especially from members of the African & Afro-Carribean communities - plenty of which are served along the NLL - travelling to/from various places of worship in NW and E London.

*especially in August, in the middle of the summer holidays - and even more especially last August, where London was told to 'go away' to make space for the Olympians and their spectators and many did - half of Central London was a ghost town for several weeks!

 

[Manchester77]

Ha! 6tph is inadequate?! LO had transformed NLL and it operates well in my experience. TfL plan for longer trains and yet in manchester we have commuter routes into suburbia made up of a single pacer with no seats and quite often your unable to board. Priorities?!

 

[deltic]

The NLL will shortly 2014? be going to 5 car which will help to address some crowding issues - and given the rolling stock with so few seats even lightly loaded trains will have people standing. Agree with OP point about it finishing early - as with Boxing Day services not clear why it seems to operate to former National Rail rather than TfL custom and practice. Also as mentioned by others fares are very low - so for every added service it loses more money

 

[yorkie]

Ha! 6tph is inadequate?! LO had transformed NLL and it operates well in my experience. TfL plan for longer trains and yet in manchester we have commuter routes into suburbia made up of a single pacer with no seats and quite often your unable to board. Priorities?!

The frequency isn't a problem as such, it's the capacity. But from my journey experiences in the Manchester area compared to the London Overground routes, yes you will have problems at peak times on some services in Manchester (as with almost anywhere else), but get a train at, say, 8pm or 9pm and the LO trains will be far busier.

 

[mrmartin]

Exactly my point. I recently moved from Edinburgh. The Airdrie Bathgate route is 4tph and it's absolutely empty offpeak. Even at peak times it's rare to see more than a handful of people standing. Many offpeak Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkrik services are also virtually empty.

 

[bb21]

The real question is if additional services are provided, who is going to pay for the additional costs incurred? There are already comprehensive provisions in bus services and the Underground until 1am, so is it really such a big deal if there is no railway service?

 

[Clip]

I was going to raise that point bb21. Yes the demand is there in the evening but not quite so high as you can't get a seat from h&I at 2030 but there are plenty other options to get home. And we don't really know what contracts staff are on,both drivers and station staff. If silver link finished early then it would stand to reason that the drivers are still on those contracts as if they were rewritten then late working would've been included

 

[swt_passenger]

The NLL ... not clear why it seems to operate to former National Rail rather than TfL custom and practice.

The LO operation on the NLL conforms to Network Rail (not National Rail) practice, because it is still running on NR tracks throughout from Stratford whether to Richmond or Clapham Jn. The only area of LO's network that TfL have full operational control over are their 'owned' parts of the ELL, (ie south of the Dalston Jn connection point as far as the New Cross Gate connection points, and of course to whatever that new junction is called on the SLL).

 

[Pumbaa]

Ha! 6tph is inadequate?! LO had transformed NLL and it operates well in my experience. TfL plan for longer trains and yet in manchester we have commuter routes into suburbia made up of a single pacer with no seats and quite often your unable to board. Priorities?!

Let's not conflate relative needs eh?

I live in Liverpool, yet I still agree that the NLL needs a greater frequency and longer trains. More people travel in the SE than up here, granted. My commute on the 0822 off of Lime St is regularly wedged, especially as I board at South Parkway! But everything's relative... Manchester - Liverpool (fast services) 3tph, a 2 car, 3 car and 4 car. Bletchley - London, 7tph, all 8 or 12 cars, and more wedged.

Everywhere has its needs

 

[Boothby97]

I've visited Willesden Junction twice in the past few years, August 2011 and August 2012 (of which was during the Olympics).Bot times I was there from 1200 to at least 1600 and trains were never full and standing, there was good loadings though. To ask the question "Why are frequencies so poor on the NLL" is an absolute joke. At last you have a good rail service, in terms of us up north!

Rant over

 

[Clip]

I've visited Willesden Junction twice in the past few years, August 2011 and August 2012 (of which was during the Olympics).Bot times I was there from 1200 to at least 1600 and trains were never full and standing, there was good loadings though. To ask the question "Why are frequencies so poor on the NLL" is an absolute joke. At last you have a good rail service, in terms of us up north!Rant over

Well London does have more people than the whole of the North West doesnt it so its understandable. And thats before you add on the people travelling from all round the south east into it each day.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Well 6 tph IS a poor service in view of the fact that the service was originally promoted as a metro style "turn up and go" service similar to the tube.

As others have said I would hardly say 6tph is a poor service for the NLL, does demand justify an increase in service? I would say that was a reasonable service in all honesty.