Why are stops cancelled while the train is still running?

[DanielCF]

Last December, I was on an Avanti service from Glasgow to Wolverhampton (the 11.56) and it was delayed by about half an hour or so starting off, and spent quite a lot of time sitting at North West Wigan. About two hours and half to three hours into the journey, it was announced the train wouldn’t be stopping at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, (I couldn’t really hear the announcement so had to ask fellow passengers what as going on!) so I had to get off at Stafford and get the next Avanti train. Luckily I got the full cost of the ticket back!

My question is, why do train companies miss out stations while the train is still travelling and only a relatively short time before it actually arrives? And how commonly is this sort of thing happening?

 

[43066]

Last December, I was on an Avanti service from Glasgow to Wolverhampton (the 11.56) and it was delayed by about half an hour or so starting off, and spent quite a lot of time sitting at North West Wigan. About two hours and half to three hours into the journey, it was announced the train wouldn’t be stopping at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, (I couldn’t really hear the announcement so had to ask fellow passengers what as going on!) so I had to get off at Stafford and get the next Avanti train. Luckily I got the full cost of the ticket back!

My question is, why do train companies miss out stations while the train is still travelling and only a relatively short time before it actually arrives? And how commonly is this sort of thing happening?

Various reasons. Probably the two most common are to ensure the train is on time, or at least closer to it, for its next (possibly far busier) working, and also to keep traincrew within their agreed working time and break parameters.

 

[DanielCF]

Various reasons. Probably the two most common are to reduce delay and ensure the train is on time, or at least closer to it, for its next (possibly far busier) working, and also to keep traincrew within their agreed working time and break parameters.

I hadn’t even considered that the train would have to be going straight back up the WCML again! Given that it‘s timetabled to be in Euston for about 5pm then that makes a lot of sense.

 

[brad465]

Sometimes if a particular route/line is shut due to disruption, but an alternative route to the final destination is still open, a train will be diverted, which means any stops on the original route but not the diversion are skipped. This causes less disruption than waiting for an affected line to reopen.

Examples where this I've seen this happen include avoiding Lewisham station, using the through line at Maidstone East when a train has either broken down or a passenger taken ill in the down platform, the Maidstone East line being fully blocked, leading to a diversion via Tonbridge (although Paddock Wood is added as a stop to assist getting to/from Maidstone) and going via Catford instead of Herne Hill between Bromley South and Victoria (although non-stop trains don't see cancelled stops here). Last week the Paddington-Frome train ended up skipping Westbury station due to congestion, so used the avoiding line rather than passing through the station.

 

[Efini92]

Last December, I was on an Avanti service from Glasgow to Wolverhampton (the 11.56) and it was delayed by about half an hour or so starting off, and spent quite a lot of time sitting at North West Wigan. About two hours and half to three hours into the journey, it was announced the train wouldn’t be stopping at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, (I couldn’t really hear the announcement so had to ask fellow passengers what as going on!) so I had to get off at Stafford and get the next Avanti train. Luckily I got the full cost of the ticket back!

My question is, why do train companies miss out stations while the train is still travelling and only a relatively short time before it actually arrives? And how commonly is this sort of thing happening?

It was probably sent via the Trent valley to make up time.

 

[davews]

Making up time after a disruption. SWR do it all the timer. Once after leaving Waterloo 15m late they decided to miss all stops to Staines, loads of upset people got off there to work their way back. On another occasion it took me four separate trains to get from Martins Heron to Clapham Junction - I remember changing at Staines when the PIS said the next train was stopping at Clapham and even the station staff waving people on it ('this train for Clapham Junction) only for the guard to come on ten seconds after we left to say it wouldn't!

 

[hermit]

I too have experienced this on SWR - eg Havant to Guildford non-stop. Southern on the other hand seem much more likely to get back on schedule by terminating short rather than missing out stops.

Presumably one consideration in making these decisions is whether paths will in practice let time be recovered - there is little point in missing out stops if the train will be crawling behind a slow stopper.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I was once on a 2 coach Chiltern service from Marylebone - Aylesbury Vale Pkwy. Standing room only. About two minutes before leaving MYB it was announced we wouldn’t stop at Harrow-on-the-Hill. I imagine it was to ease overcrowding, as the train was on time, though very few people left the train. Could have also had something to do with a broken down train at Rickmansworth blocking one line in the area. Would be nice if they could say why they were inconveniencing people.

 

[Lurcheroo]

TFW will often not stop at Wellington and Teflord on their way to Birmingham if the train is formed of 2 coaches instead of 4 and very overcrowded.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My question is, why do train companies miss out stations while the train is still travelling and only a relatively short time before it actually arrives?

In your example the train will probably have been sent down the Trent Valley to make up time, and it would make up quite a lot of time missing out Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

As for why they do it, it is generally to make sure the train is on time for its next journey or to make sure the crew don’t run out of hours. If they don’t do that then the delay just continues to get bigger and the impact continues to spread as the train misses all its paths.

Merseyrail will run delayed trains fast to the end of the line to get the unit on time for its next journey. I experienced this last week, a train was 12 late at Liverpool Central (on a 4tph route) so it ran fast to Hunts Cross. By running fast it made the delay back up and actually left Hunts Cross on time for its return to Southport.

 

[pompeyfan]

It’s because delay repay payments come out of the controllers pocket

The above is untrue, but looking at the TOC Twitter accounts and the replies from upset passengers, you could be forgiven for thinking that is the perception.

As others have said it’s to try and get trains and crew on time for their next workings. Crew on arrival at a terminus may split to work separate trains with the unit then working a 3rd train (2nd if DOO), so suddenly you’ve got 1 late train leading to 3 separate late trains if action isn’t taken.

A good controller (if there is spare stock / crew) might be able to juggle departures and use a different unit and use spare crews to work part of a duty.

 

[Falcon1200]

As others have said it’s to try and get trains and crew on time for their next workings.

Yes indeed, and also to minimise overall disruption. Where late running occurs in a congested area, and/or where a route has a single line section, doing nothing can result in delays snowballing to a point where cancellations occur. Of course, some passengers on the train with its stops removed are inconvenienced, but far more passengers have a normal journey.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Presumably one consideration in making these decisions is whether paths will in practice let time be recovered - there is little point in missing out stops if the train will be crawling behind a slow stopper.

SWR are good at this in the down direction - Kingston line trains running on the fast to just beyond New Malden first stop Norbiton. Less so on the up, we're they almost invariably end up using the up slow, crawling through intermediate stations behind a stopper, suggesting Control had not told the signallers that it's running nonstop.

 

[Bevan Price]

The main thing is that passengers already on the train - or waiting on platforms should always be informed of the change before the journey starts., and be given time to alight. Changing stopping patterns after your journey has started is very undesirable.

 

[bleeder4]

It's relatively common I think. On Saturday I was on the 10:52 Avanti WC service from Edinburgh Waverley to London Euston. We ran well all the way to Stafford, got about 8 minutes late around Preston but had easily made that up by Crewe. Just as we were approaching Stafford the train manager announced the train would be terminating at Birmingham New Street (fortunately, where I was getting off anyway) and any passengers for Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction and London Euston needed to get off at Stafford and board the next service. A girl near me who had booked assistance at Milton Keynes Central started crying but myself and a couple of others managed to console her.

We arrived into Birmingham New Street just 2 minutes late. Once I retrieved my bag from the luggage rack I noticed a couple of Japanese tourists still seated further down the coach and not looking like they planned to move any time soon. Clearly travelling to London and hadn't understood what had happened at Stafford. I said "train finished, last stop" to them but I'm not sure they understood, so I left them sitting on an empty train as I disembarked.

RTT showed the cancellation reason as being "problem with train crew" so I'm assuming that there was due to be a driver or guard change at Birmingham New Street but the replacements weren't available.

Seems to happen a fair bit with Avanti WC.

 

[Kite159]

It's relatively common I think. On Saturday I was on the 10:52 Avanti WC service from Edinburgh Waverley to London Euston. We ran well all the way to Stafford, got about 8 minutes late around Preston but had easily made that up by Crewe. Just as we were approaching Stafford the train manager announced the train would be terminating at Birmingham New Street (fortunately, where I was getting off anyway) and any passengers for Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes Central, Watford Junction and London Euston needed to get off at Stafford and board the next service. A girl near me who had booked assistance at Milton Keynes Central started crying but myself and a couple of others managed to console her.

We arrived into Birmingham New Street just 2 minutes late. Once I retrieved my bag from the luggage rack I noticed a couple of Japanese tourists still seated further down the coach and not looking like they planned to move any time soon. Clearly travelling to London and hadn't understood what had happened at Stafford. I said "train finished, last stop" to them but I'm not sure they understood, so I left them sitting on an empty train as I disembarked.

RTT showed the cancellation reason as being "problem with train crew" so I'm assuming that there was due to be a driver or guard change at Birmingham New Street but the replacements weren't available.

Seems to happen a fair bit with Avanti WC.

I can understand passengers for Rugby & beyond changing at Stafford (although how many Avanti services call at both Stafford & Rugby which go via the Trent Valley? But surely for Birmingham International & Coventry it would have been better for the passengers to be advised to remain on board to New Street to catch a service starting at New Street?

 

[12LDA28C]

The main thing is that passengers already on the train - or waiting on platforms should always be informed of the change before the journey starts., and be given time to alight. Changing stopping patterns after your journey has started is very undesirable.

It's not always known 'before the journey starts' that delays will be encountered. As long as an announcement is made before the last point at which passengers would need to alight and change for their destination then there's no problem.

 

[Steve Harris]

It's not always known 'before the journey starts' that delays will be encountered. As long as an announcement is made before the last point at which passengers would need to alight and change for their destination then there's no problem.

That's providing the service behind is not also skip stopping !! GTR are well known for leaving stations with a 2 hrs service pattern vice 30 mins when things go pear shaped.

So I wouldn't call that "no problem".

 

[Trainguy34]

Even today, I went to see a Railtour near me, only to find there had been a bridge strike and nothing was running. In the aftermath, they decided to run one train fast from Dover to (one presumes) London, likely calling at Canterbury East, Faversham, Gillingham and London Victoria. They do that often during disruption, often leaving stations unserved for 2 (Occasionally 3) hours during disruption.

 

[Ben427]

It's not surprising that sometimes trains run through a station not stopping to ensure it runs on time for the next service while leaving people already on the service stranded at a random stop they didn't want and either have to wait for another train or a taxi home losing hours

The priorities should be the passengers affected first however as usual the network works for the network and not the passengers

 

[Horizon22]

It's a service recovery method. To not do so risks trains running late and crew relief issues all day.

A service controller will look at everything from lateness, turnaround time at terminus, crew & stock diagram(s), time of day, frequency of service (e.g. is the next train serving the route running to time and catching up), location/route/direction of the train (e.g. peak direction), level of crowding (if known), infrastructure constraints to make a decision.

A service recovery decision could be a) skipping stops, b) terminating/starting short of destination/origin, c) rerouting, d) outright cancellation and reformation.

You should always give passengers prior notice and not trap them - e.g. if the train is booked to run A-B-C-D-E-F and has been delayed between A-B, you can't then say its running non-stop A to E and sending all the passengers for B,C&D to E; it would need to run non-stop B-E to allow passengers to alight and wait the next service

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

That's providing the service behind is not also skip stopping !! GTR are well known for leaving stations with a 2 hrs service pattern vice 30 mins when things go pear shaped.

So I wouldn't call that "no problem".

Sometimes infrastructure constraints / a contingency plan of course prevents a station being served in one/both directions.

 

[matthenj]

Making up time after a disruption. SWR do it all the timer. Once after leaving Waterloo 15m late they decided to miss all stops to Staines, loads of upset people got off there to work their way back. On another occasion it took me four separate trains to get from Martins Heron to Clapham Junction - I remember changing at Staines when the PIS said the next train was stopping at Clapham and even the station staff waving people on it ('this train for Clapham Junction) only for the guard to come on ten seconds after we left to say it wouldn't!

You were lucky enough to have one run fast to staines?

The dream! Wish they always did that.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's not surprising that sometimes trains run through a station not stopping to ensure it runs on time for the next service while leaving people already on the service stranded at a random stop they didn't want and either have to wait for another train or a taxi home losing hours

The priorities should be the passengers affected first however as usual the network works for the network and not the passengers

You're totally missing the point. This is done for the benefit of all passengers, not just the ones actually on the train, try to see the bigger picture. Recovering a delay more quickly by missing out stops or diverting via a more direct route will mean less delays for many more passengers than just those on board that one train.

 

[Falcon1200]

The priorities should be the passengers affected first however as usual the network works for the network and not the passengers

I don't know how often this has to be said; Any positive action taken by Control, whether that be running express, turning short or diverting via faster routes, is done to restore normal service as quickly as possible and therefore disrupt and inconvenience the fewest number of passengers. Sitting back and doing nothing just leads to much greater total delay.

 

[Dr_Paul]

It works both ways. I was a bit narked when an up Shepperton service, normally all stations to Waterloo (except Earlsfield) was running late and ran non-stop from Teddington, thus running through Kingston where I was waiting. On the other hand, one evening I boarded a down Shepperton service at Waterloo that was late, and was quite happy when we were told it was running non-stop to Kingston. Another time, I boarded a very delayed up semi-fast at Surbiton which stopped for some time at Wimbledon and then went via East Putney. I was quite happy as I wasn't in a hurry and I'd never gone that way before, but for the already delayed passengers, this was the last straw.

 

[TUC]

It would be interesting to know whether TOCs have carried out any disability impact assessment of short notice stop-skipping in terms of their legal duties towards disabled people

 

[Jim]

It would be interesting to know whether TOCs have carried out any disability impact assessment of short notice stop-skipping in terms of their legal duties towards disabled people

Surely the same legal duties as any other customer?

Everyone has the same legal right to complete their journey don't they? As long as you provide the correct assistance to anyone displaced, I am not aware of any extra rights disabled people have to avoiding service recovery methods?

 

[Steve Harris]

Sometimes infrastructure constraints / a contingency plan of course prevents a station being served in one/both directions.

I'm talking about the ECML and particularly the Horsham- Peterborough service which is the only passenger service to use the slows between Hitchin and Holme/Huntingdon. So no constrains between them 2 points, although I agree it must be fun for the Computer system to thread the eye of the needle at Digswell Viaduct!!

I have no problem with skip stopping per say, as long as a station is served in a reasonable manner (ie 15 min frequency drops to 30 min or 30 mins drops to 1 hr) but a drop of 30 mins to 3 hours is not acceptable (this has happened, especially at Arlesey).

 

[Cymroglan]

Back on 3/4/24 I had the unusual experience of travelling non stop from Weymouth to Bournemouth as part of SWR’s recovery plan after the Basingstoke bomb scare. An all stations stopper left Weymouth a few minutes after our train.
This was the first time I have benefitted from SWR’s predilection for cutting stops. I usually suffer from their regular habit of not stopping between Bournemouth and Southampton at the drop of a hat…

 

[Spamcan81]

A couple of months ago I travelled from Letchworth to Cambridge and back and in each direction stops were missed out in spite of each train being only 10 minutes late. Did affect me going but when they decided to miss out Letchworth and I had to detrain at Royston and catch a following train, it meant I missed my bus.