Why are stops cancelled while the train is still running?

[pompeyfan]

Back on 3/4/24 I had the unusual experience of travelling non stop from Weymouth to Bournemouth as part of SWR’s recovery plan after the Basingstoke bomb scare. An all stations stopper left Weymouth a few minutes after our train.
This was the first time I have benefitted from SWR’s predilection for cutting stops. I usually suffer from their regular habit of not stopping between Bournemouth and Southampton at the drop of a hat…

The long signal sections between Southampton and Bournemouth combined with the 5 trains an hour during the peak (mix of stoppers and fasts) mean that if stops aren’t removed Network Rail will intervene if SWR don’t by putting the stopping service away in the loop at Brockenhurst to protect the Cross Country services.

 

[Jim]

Some decisions that you see for skipping stations are odd, but best endeavors at the time I guess!

 

[Peter0124]

RTT showed the cancellation reason as being "problem with train crew" so I'm assuming that there was due to be a driver or guard change at Birmingham New Street but the replacements weren't available.

Seems to happen a fair bit with Avanti WC.

It ran as empty from Birmingham to London under the headcode 5M54 about 20 minutes later so it was likely a TM issue.

 

[TUC]

Surely the same legal duties as any other customer?

Everyone has the same legal right to complete their journey don't they? As long as you provide the correct assistance to anyone displaced, I am not aware of any extra rights disabled people have to avoiding service recovery methods?

If a disabled person travelling from A to B knows that they can manage their own way around both stations without assistance, so has not arranged any, but unexpectedly finds themselves having to travel to less accessible station C instead, that is problematic.

 

[uglymonkey]

They regularly do this on the St Pan or Kings Cross to Cambridge services, usually after any delay or problem ( wires down etc). After about Hitchin they then rush fast to Cambridge missing out most of the stops. I can understand why they do it ( pathing) and to "catch up" but it is extremely frustrating as they always miss out Baldock!!! ( taxi drivers at Letchworth must love it however !!!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Trains running without stopping on the Atherton line is quite common.
Sometimes they run empty with no guard, and if they end up really delayed they'll run fast to Wigan, with the previous train picking up the passengers.
If possible they usually axe the Atherton line (2 trains per hour) in favour of Headbolt Lane (1 train per hour).
I've also seen them turn at Rainford and not go to Headbolt Lane (earned me £6 in delay repay).

Almost all of those decisions above are on short notice, usually in responce to delays.

 

[Dr Hoo]

If a disabled person travelling from A to B knows that they can manage their own way around both stations without assistance, so has not arranged any, but unexpectedly finds themselves having to travel to less accessible station C instead, that is problematic.

(Presuming that C comes between A and B in your hypothetical scenario…) is there any suggestion that passengers are being decanted at ‘inaccessible’ stations with no prospect of help?
Taking the original example of a train being diverted to run fast via the Trent Valley, the next step is to pick up a following service at Stafford (or wherever). Obviously this is inconvenient but not really inaccessible as I would describe it.

 

[RailWonderer]

It seemed to happen more on GWR on Reading - Paddington (more frequently when GWR did the stoppers) and SWR still. Intercity operators have fewer calls so there isn't as much time to be gained by skip stopping. I had a Lincoln - Nottingham stopper that went non-stop to make up time but when the frequency on that line can be poor at some of the stations that's not good.

 

[Falcon1200]

It would be interesting to know whether TOCs have carried out any disability impact assessment of short notice stop-skipping in terms of their legal duties towards disabled people

If a disabled person is on a train which, during the journey, has been altered to remove their stop, the second person on board (Guard or Ticket Examiner) should be aware and advise Control so that the stop can if possible be re-instated.

 

[Steve Harris]

If a disabled person is on a train which, during the journey, has been altered to remove their stop, the second person on board (Guard or Ticket Examiner) should be aware and advise Control so that the stop can if possible be re-instated.

That'll work on DOO services then

 

[Horizon22]

If a disabled person is on a train which, during the journey, has been altered to remove their stop, the second person on board (Guard or Ticket Examiner) should be aware and advise Control so that the stop can if possible be re-instated.

Well that evidently won’t work for DOO services, the majority of which are metro / urban-suburban routes which are more likely to implement skip-stopping.

However there are still ways around this - such as controllers knowing which services assisted travel passengers are on and/or the origin/destination station being made aware of the service alteration and liaising with another station accordingly.

Despite that, it’s hard to say there isn’t going to be at least some additional risk than a non-disabled passenger wouldn’t have to deal with.

 

[Falcon1200]

That'll work on DOO services then

Well that evidently won’t work for DOO services

It would work for DOO services which have a second person on board; DOO does not necessarily mean the Driver is the only staff on the train. How many of the DOO services in the UK do not have a second person rostered on board, as a matter of interest? All those on the services I use most, in Scotland, do.

 

[Steve Harris]

It would work for DOO services which have a second person on board; DOO does not necessarily mean the Driver is the only staff on the train. How many of the DOO services in the UK do not have a second person rostered on board, as a matter of interest? All those on the services I use most, in Scotland, do.

Thameslink/Great Northern DOO services don't have anyone else on board unless there is a spot ticket check being carried out by revenue staff (which isn't that often tbh).

So, as I said earlier, That'll work on DOO services then.

 

[Horizon22]

It would work for DOO services which have a second person on board; DOO does not necessarily mean the Driver is the only staff on the train. How many of the DOO services in the UK do not have a second person rostered on board, as a matter of interest? All those on the services I use most, in Scotland, do.

Scotland - and Southern OBSs - are an exception in this regard. Most DOO trains have a single member of staff (the driver).

 

[Jim]

However there are still ways around this - such as controllers knowing which services assisted travel passengers are on and/or the origin/destination station being made aware of the service alteration and liaising with another station accordingly.

Despite that, it’s hard to say there isn’t going to be at least some additional risk than a non-disabled passenger wouldn’t have to deal with.

I don't know any operational controllers at my local TOC that have access to booked assisted travel.

Regardless though, people should be able to turn up and go so it wouldn't be a great way to judge.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't know any operational controllers at my local TOC that have access to booked assisted travel.

Regardless though, people should be able to turn up and go so it wouldn't be a great way to judge.

I’m aware of some controllers (on the information side not the operational) that log turn-up-and-go travellers and at the very least origin & destination obviously need to know too so can discuss.

 

[Peter0124]

It would work for DOO services which have a second person on board; DOO does not necessarily mean the Driver is the only staff on the train. How many of the DOO services in the UK do not have a second person rostered on board, as a matter of interest? All those on the services I use most, in Scotland, do.

Even though two staff members are rostered on Strathclyde DOO services, there are (occasional) times when the train runs with just the driver onboard, if the Ticket Examiner booked for the service has called off sick for example, and they couldn't get anyone to cover the turn.

 

[Falcon1200]

So, as I said earlier, That'll work on DOO services then.

So, as I said earlier; That'll work on DOO services with a second person on board then (which actually is how all DOO services should operate, IMHO, but that is another issue).

Even though two staff members are rostered on Strathclyde DOO services, there are (occasional) times when the train runs with just the driver onboard,

True, although it would be an unfortunate (but not impossible) combination of circumstances to have no second person on board, and a passenger requiring assistance on board, and stops removed, and one of those stops being the assisted person's alighting point. And of course, on a non-DOO train, if the second person (ie Guard) was not available the train would not run at all.

 

[43066]

So, as I said earlier; That'll work on DOO services with a second person on board then (which actually is how all DOO services should operate, IMHO, but that is another issue)

The majority of DOO services don’t have a second person aboard, however.

 

[Falcon1200]

The majority of DOO services don’t have a second person aboard, however.

Which, I must admit, I did not know, living as I do in Scotland where all DOO trains should, and usually do, have that second person.

 

[43066]

Which, I must admit, I did not know, living as I do in Scotland where all DOO trains should, and usually do, have that second person.

Fair enough. It’s a different picture south of the border, for sure. Southern outer services and Southeastern’s HS1 trains are about the only ones currently.

 

[Steve Harris]

So, as I said earlier; That'll work on DOO services with a second person on board then.

Which is in the minority, something which your not quite grasping.

 

[TUC]

(Presuming that C comes between A and B in your hypothetical scenario…) is there any suggestion that passengers are being decanted at ‘inaccessible’ stations with no prospect of help?
Taking the original example of a train being diverted to run fast via the Trent Valley, the next step is to pick up a following service at Stafford (or wherever). Obviously this is inconvenient but not really inaccessible as I would describe it.

'Inaccessible' isn't just about wheelchair access. If you're a visually impaired person familiar with your departure and arrival stations, both of which are simple in layout, and find yourself at an unfamiliar station with perhaps a more complex layout, that is a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

If a disabled person is on a train which, during the journey, has been altered to remove their stop, the second person on board (Guard or Ticket Examiner) should be aware and advise Control so that the stop can if possible be re-instated.

If the passenger has not requested assistance because they know they can manage independently from/to their planned stations, the Guard/Examiner won't necessarily know they are on the train.

 

[Falcon1200]

Which is in the minority, something which your not quite grasping.

I have very much grasped the issue thanks to the another much more helpful, and polite, post.

Perhaps you could explain how someone living in Scotland where every single DOO service has a second person rostered on board (I travelled on 3 Scotrail DOO trains just today and on each one the second person was indeed present and active) is expected to know how DOO trains (on multiple operators) are staffed elsewhere in the UK?

 

[Steve Harris]

I have very much grasped the issue thanks to the another much more helpful, and polite, post.

Perhaps you could explain how someone living in Scotland where every single DOO service has a second person rostered on board (I travelled on 3 Scotrail DOO trains just today and on each one the second person was indeed present and active) is expected to know how DOO trains (on multiple operators) are staffed elsewhere in the UK?

Research !?

As for politeness, I used for a reason in my first reply to you. But sorry if you thought I was being inpolite, as I wasn't trying to be.

 

[Falcon1200]

Research !?

How?!

 

[Steve Harris]

How?!

Well, this very forum contains invaluable information.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well, this very forum contains invaluable information.

Perhaps then you could direct me to the thread which details which TOCs operate DOO, and the varying ways in which it is done.

 

[yorkie]

Thameslink/Great Northern DOO services don't have anyone else on board unless there is a spot ticket check being carried out by revenue staff (which isn't that often tbh).

Yes if you had said Thameslink/Great Northern, it would be a valid point.

So, as I said earlier, That'll work on DOO services then.

Not so; there are many driver only operated services that do have a second person (On Board Manager, On Board Supervisor, Travelling Ticket Inspector etc) on board. The method of operation of the train is a separate concept, to what you are referring to.

Can we please return to the subject title; thanks

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

It would work for DOO services which have a second person on board; DOO does not necessarily mean the Driver is the only staff on the train. How many of the DOO services in the UK do not have a second person rostered on board, as a matter of interest? All those on the services I use most, in Scotland, do.

Greater Anglia's commuter services don't, unless there is a random ticket check