Why are Class 700s considered unpopular?

[Hadders]

Personally, I prefer a 387 to a 365. The toilets don't smell. They have selective door opening, so 8 car trains can run through to Kings Lynn. The windows don't open, so the cabin doesn't fill with pollen in the summer. The couplings work first time, rather than taking 5-10 minutes of bashing back and forth to connect units.

On the down side, a 387 lurches violently between Ely and Cambridge. I assume the suspension bottoms out on a bump. Its not a problem on a class 755 or 700 on the same route.

A 700 would be much better with somewhere to hold a coffee cup and power sockets to charge a laptop.

I can't say I'd ever noticed a smell from the toilets on a 365.

The 365s didn't have air con, hence the opening windows but given they were built in the mid-1990s they really did age well. I'd much prefer them over the 387s.

Another redeeming feature of the 700s is their length and the fact they can't be shortened! You can bet in they were 4-car units coupled together we'd have penny pinchers at the DfT demanding 4-car units for much of the day!

 

[physics34]

I agree that in terms of train quality, the 700 could be considered as 'functional'. For a commuter/suburban rail train, it's great, but definitely sub-par for longer journeys.
At the next refurbishment, they should definitely consider adding some more comfortable seating for people making 1hr+ trips on the Cambridge/Bedford/Peterborough/Brighton/Rainham routes. Perhaps with the 12 car units, replace the declassified first class section with a (free) 'premium' seating section (i.e. tables and charging points) for people joining the train at the ends of the network, with all of the train overall having more comfortable seating.

Yes.. i think im quoted in saying the 700s are nearly perfect for sutton loop/metro services but are wholly inadequate for longer routes. Hopefully in the future they improve things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2025 ==

The seats aren't pushed against the wall. Unlike some other such units they are actually slightly spaced from it - not quite an armrest's width but not far off.

Enough so though to affect the legroom and shoulder width

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes.. i think im quoted in saying the 700s are nearly perfect for sutton loop/metro services but are wholly inadequate for longer routes. Hopefully in the future they improve things.

They even fail here with the 1st class and that pointless door separating 1st and standard. Pointless because of the design and massive gaps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They even fail here with the 1st class and that pointless door separating 1st and standard. Pointless because of the design and massive gaps.

The gaps are so it doesn't disrupt airflow/air conditioning. Not an unusual feature.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2025 ==

Another redeeming feature of the 700s is their length and the fact they can't be shortened! You can bet in they were 4-car units coupled together we'd have penny pinchers at the DfT demanding 4-car units for much of the day!

Agree the fixed formation is a good feature and it is a shame it has not been replicated elsewhere e.g. Merseyrail (though it is on the Lizzie).

 

[physics34]

They even fail here with the 1st class and that pointless door separating 1st and standard. Pointless because of the design and massive gaps.

Ha ha true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really enjoy them, myself and family usually opt for them over 377s for the decent luggage space and the rear carriage comfort however we are more than happy with the standard seating also.

I prefer Standard; the First Class seats are a Fainsa Sophia derivative (not quite the Sophia, possibly an earlier version) which unfortunately suffer the standard "metal bar" problem associated to that seat design.

 

[Hadders]

I prefer Standard; the First Class seats are a Fainsa Sophia derivative (not quite the Sophia, possibly an earlier version) which unfortunately suffer the standard "metal bar" problem associated to that seat design.

An issue in standard is that anyone who's tall really has to use the priority seats (thankfully there's lots) or sit in an aisle seats with legs protruding into the aisle

 

[bramling]

I have never understood the unpopularity of them either. They are by far my favourite trains that are currently in service. The entire Desiro City fleet (700/707/717) of trains is amazing.

They have such a nice bright spacious interior. The aisles are extremely wide. In fact the aisles are wide enough that a wheelchair can easily wheel down the entire twelve coach train. The doorways are extremely wide. They have really nice extra large windows. The ride quality is excellent and very smooth. The air conditioning is fantastic and much more powerful than many other classes. The interior feels really nice and has a much nicer brighter ambiance compared to some other classes.

I know the seats have some complaints but personally i have become so used to the ironing boards that i do not really mind then. Sure they are not the best seats but they are definitely not the worst. I suppose the seats are probably the major thing that some people dislike.

The interior is a bit subjective, however I find it exceptionally drab, clinical and sterile, in fact bordering on a bit sickly - especially in standard. Reminds me of a dirty 1970s greasy spoon cafe. And I’m not a fan of the wide gangways either, feels a very inferior travelling ambience.

They’re not the only recent trains like this though. I’m not very keen on the Aventra series either, and having been on the Merseyrail class 777s this week for the first time I’m not a fan of those either. I kind of like a train to feel like a train, not a bus. The contrast from some of the decent 1990s/2000s designs is quite stark.

 

[NSEWonderer]

The problem the 700s face with interior design is the same one the 345s do. They're trains that have to do a multi role job, the 700 arguably doing the better of the two. Both trains have quite a bit of metro styled heavy pax work that suddenly then shifts to a more long distance style work and the interiors have to somewhat suit both.

 

[Failed Unit]

The gaps are so it doesn't disrupt airflow/air conditioning. Not an unusual feature.

Seems to be fine on the 387s which have a better separation between the areas (without a door constantly hitting the seats either side of it)

Another major fail for the 700s (Hopefully not many of have this issue) is the disabled access. They have poles right in the area infront of the doors. Great for standing passengers, however very difficult for wheelchair users as it is in the turning circle. Again the 387s / 379s are much easier to board in that respect. I can't think of any other types of train where something like that makes it challenging to get the passenger on. On the positive, it is great you don't need assistance in the core. (Although staff helping ask people to leave the tip up seats so you are not having to put the wheelchair in the doors is also welcome)

 

[RacsoMoquette]

It will be interesting to see what Siemens latest suburban offering is like, the Desiro Verve. It may be a decent train for Scotrail suburban routes, aswell as Southeasterns Networker replacement! It will be interesting to see how the build and reliability compares to its contemporaries such as the Aventras and METROs. From concept images, the Verve looks akin to a Class 380, maybe some resemblance is taken from the first gen Desiros. Also considering battery technology is increasing, the battery Desiro Verve may become a popular choice for operators. I wonder how the interior compares to a outer-suburban/commuter style akin to TL 700s?

 

[yorksrob]

While they're good people movers, the lack of tables on some of them is unsuited for services regularly travelling to the coast. This ought to be rectified.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some of them have had wi-fi retro fitted. As a rule as built if it had tables it had wi-fi. Now some of the lower numbered units have WiFi. If they can find the finds for that (which has an opex charge) it is a pity they can’t the funds for the seat back tables on all set.

 

[Harpo]

In my experience, the only place they are unpopular is on enthuiasts forums.

Maybe because of their knowledge and experience of comparable and (subjectively) ‘better’ train types?

 

[Bletchleyite]

An issue in standard is that anyone who's tall really has to use the priority seats (thankfully there's lots) or sit in an aisle seats with legs protruding into the aisle

Yes, the legroom is poor. I don't use these to commute with the flow, however, so with the long fixed formations I have generally just sat in a facing bay with nobody opposite. It is the main problem with them, though, as it makes the wide aisles less useful if people have to stick their knees out into them.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, the legroom is poor. I don't use these to commute with the flow, however, so with the long fixed formations I have generally just sat in a facing bay with nobody opposite. It is the main problem with them, though, as it makes the wide aisles less useful if people have to stick their knees out into them.

I agree with that. You may as well just have a decent width seat. At least with trad high-density 3+2 seating, you could sit three across quite comfortably. In this situation you just get the thin seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with that. You may as well just have a decent width seat. At least with trad high-density 3+2 seating, you could sit three across quite comfortably. In this situation you just get the thin seats.

One thing I have noticed is that the Class 195 (and there are plenty running about as 2 cars on services which would justify 6 down South) seems to deal with crowds just as well as the 700 or 730/0 does, and similarly that the 730/0 being about 5cm narrower* doesn't seem to make any difference. The thing that makes the difference appears to be the standbacks at the doors. Thus yes, you can provide 45cm wide seats with armrests and tables (so there aren't knees and backsides sticking out into the aisle) and the basic design still works.

* Notably Aventras only come in one width, which makes 701s look like baby trains - normally 20m vehicles are a bit wider

 

[driverd]

In my opinion, the class 700 is the perfect metro train. The problem is that most of the routes that these trains are used on are not metro routes. Thameslink and Great Northern routes are mostly outer-suburban and regional routes with services that go over 50 miles commonly. The spartan interior is only really suitable for the central core of Thameslink and the Sutton loop services. Perhaps a refurbishment to make the interior more like a class 380 or a 2+2 class 350 would make these units more suitable for the actual routes that these units are used on.

I agree fully with this. The 700 is essentially a slightly longer distance tube train. Deals with a high turnover of people well and is passable for a 10-15 minute journey. If they ran Finsbury Park to East Croydon, they'd be an unspectacular unit doing an unspectacular job.

But they run Brighton to Cambridge. Best part of 3 hours, used by a not insignificant number of passengers between either end and London (eg: 90 minutes).

And what joys does that 90 minutes behold for the user?

An uncomfortable seat with no arm rests, no table, next to no padding and no personal space.

Yes you get a wide aisle, but at the cost of anything like sufficient width from the person next to you. If you're with your partner and want to be close and coupley, fab. If you're with a stranger, grim.

And then theres the NHS waiting room inspired decor...

The interior is a bit subjective, however I find it exceptionally drab, clinical and sterile, in fact bordering on a bit sickly - especially in standard. Reminds me of a dirty 1970s greasy spoon cafe. And I’m not a fan of the wide gangways either, feels a very inferior travelling ambience.

Absolutely get the 1970s cafe ambiance, especially now the units tend to be a bit grimey.

As I've said before, a lot of these flaws could be quick fixes. Change the colour of the interior bulbs to something warmer, next major exam, respray seat backs and panels something other than white, grey or blue, add armrests and tables uniformly.

But as it stands these are shocking units, far far inferior to the 377/5s or 319/2s. As others, I too actively avoid them as much as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely get the 1970s cafe ambiance, especially now the units tend to be a bit grimey.

I'd say they feel like a hospital but without the cleanliness. NHS fleck Lino etc.

As I've said before, a lot of these flaws could be quick fixes. Change the colour of the interior bulbs to something warmer, next major exam, respray seat backs and panels something other than white, grey or blue, add armrests and tables uniformly.

Sticky backed plastic of scenery on the blank panels might help, particularly in the toilets where it deters vandalism. It's been done to good effect on other TOCs.

 

[43066]

Are they considered unpopular? I’d be interested to know by whom. Perhaps amongst certain quarters of the enthusiast community, who seem to dislike anything modern by default. I doubt many of Thameslink’s regular passengers would like to see 319s back on the route.

In my experience, the only place they are unpopular is on enthuiasts forums.

Agreed.

 

[Mag_seven]

Are they considered unpopular?

That's what I was thinking.


I'm sure passengers outside London who have to put up with 2 or 3 car trains would love it if a 12 car train rocked up let alone an 8 car one.

 

[Class15]

I like the 700s but unfortunately they are not likely to be ordered again due to the current policy which seems to be that all trains must be made in Derby or Newton Aycliffe. They are popular on the runs I use them for on the St Albans to Sutton route. They may be less popular on the longer distance routes.

 

[zwk500]

Are they considered unpopular? I’d be interested to know by whom. Perhaps amongst certain quarters of the enthusiast community, who seem to dislike anything modern by default. I doubt many of Thameslink’s regular passengers would like to see 319s back on the route.

When they first came in, there were numerous complaints around the 'ironing board seats' and so forth. Particularly on routes where they replaced 365s.

Given many people don't have a choice about the type of train that they get, I'm not sure how you'd evaluate popularity other than by interviewing fellow passengers. Passenger numbers would be an unreliable guide.

I personally don't like pretty much everything about the passenger environment. The seats are too close, the wrong shape, not padded enough, there's no wifi/plugs etc, first class partition is laughable, the door alarms, etc...
I *do* like the fact it can move a very large number of people and that it doesn't hang around when accelerating.

 

[43066]

Given many people don't have a choice about the type of train that they get, I'm not sure how you'd evaluate popularity other than by interviewing fellow passengers. Passenger numbers would be an unreliable guide.

Passenger feedback forms perhaps? Looking at how many complaints about rolling stock there are pre and post introduction of the fleet.

Fair point re. 365s but (especially at this time of year) I bet you’d find 99% of passengers overwhelmingly favour aircon stock.

 

[jon0844]

In fact there was nothing quite like travelling on a 365 on a hot summer evening on the down fast at 100mph with all the windows open . A wind in the hair experience, sadly missed.

Likewise, if the train had sat in the sidings and come ECS into King's Cross, then you boarded an oven that didn't begin to cool until you'd started making some progress from Finsbury Park. If the hopper vents worked, maybe you could get a bit more comfortable but IME it wasn't pleasant on hot days.

Sure, if you got a Cambridge Cruiser and were flying along at 100mph then it would have been great - really feeling connected to the railway, but otherwise they were hell to be on. Of course so were the other non A/C stock.

Besides the heating issue, the 365s were great. If air con and bodyside cameras could have been added, maybe they could have stayed in service longer.

I am not sure, however, that 700s are unpopular. I get that the 387/379 interior is nicer for those who can sit, but 700s were designed to get everyone onboard and help in particular when there may have been a cancellation previous, or to cope with the ever increasing number of events at multiple stations along their routes. I hope that when they get a refresh, the final units get seat back tables and Wi-Fi, and power sockets, but the basic layout is left as is.

 

[ScotGG]

They're fine but dull. Toilets are always like the Bronx in the 80s for some reason.

This made me laugh though: "Compared to other countries such as France, they still use 30 year old commuter trains on the RER, which are really in need of replacement, I think London and South-East England are quite fortunate to have sleek, modern, reliable commuter trains!"

Someone hasn't been on a SouthEastern Networker!

 

[Failed Unit]

That's what I was thinking.


I'm sure passengers outside London who have to put up with 2 or 3 car trains would love it if a 12 car train rocked up let alone an 8 car one.

They are much less liked on the Great Northern side then the Thamelink side, mainly because they are a downgrade of what was there previously. Are the 700s an improvement on the 319s? Absolutely. Are they an improvement on the 365s? Absolutely not? Did it need to be that way? Absolutely not, if they had got the interior right then most of the complaints would go away. This can and hopefully will be recified in thier midlife refit. Had they managed to get some prototypes on the route they would have realised the seating just didn't work and people need encroach into thier nieghboroughs space. If you get a large passenger on a window seat they through no choice of thier own take space from the passenger on other seat who now needs to have thier backside hanging off the seat. They realised they made a mistake by not putting the tables in, as they fitted them into the later build, but sadly never retrofitted.

The poor design for the wheelchair users was pretty unforgivable. Again it would have being seen in a mock up / prototype. Sadly the DfT don't appear to be interested in passenger comfort and are more interested in the crush loading of the trian. Where the majority of passengers have lost out (we have all seen photos of trains where the legs are now in the standing room space).

The pushing the button to prevent the door shutting is brilliant for wheelchair users (although the ramp stops this where it is needed). The obstruction to get them on-board in the first place isn't welcome. (The centre pole for the standing passengers)

Do any of the 8 car units need first class? I know some on the Great Northern side run to Ely and Kings Lynn, but hopefully these can be removed with 379s soon (hopefully riding the 700s from the Kings Cross - Cambridge trains at the same time)

 

[jon0844]

They're fine but dull. Toilets are always like the Bronx in the 80s for some reason.

The 700 toilets should be getting sacrificial film (like the windows) to help keep them clean (or should I say, to help remove the mess easier than using harsh chemicals or paint that only Siemens can use as part of the lease agreement). Not sure if any already have it fitted, or how often they'll replace the film to hopefully discourage people once they see their 'hard work' doesn't last.

 

[frankmoh]

All of the Desiro Cities are simply boring trains. Using the Class 707 as an example here, the seats are also arguably worse than 465s despite their age and general state of disrepair.

The 465s, both BREL/Hitachi and MetCam also make a nice sound compared to the warbling of the 707 (and others).

I think railways in London are all becoming boring in their homogeny of Desiro Cities and Electrostars. They can't even ask for different options on the cab ends aside from gangways.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am not sure, however, that 700s are unpopular. I get that the 387/379 interior is nicer for those who can sit, but 700s were designed to get everyone onboard and help in particular when there may have been a cancellation previous, or to cope with the ever increasing number of events at multiple stations along their routes. I hope that when they get a refresh, the final units get seat back tables and Wi-Fi, and power sockets, but the basic layout is left as is.

I don't find over-crowding on the Great Northern side that bad, certainly not to a level that we need to comprimise the seat width avialable to passengers to the extent they need to turn thier legs to actually fit in. The 717s get very full now. The 700s ourside disruption tend have people comfortably stood in the aisle, which would make no difference if it was a 387 (although it would have more seats to start with)

As special events, sadly lack of staff seems to be the issue here. Back in the good old days they would run extras. When Arsenal were at home pre GTR they would run extras from Welwyn Garden City to help with the load. That said we also had 4 coach trains from trains starting at Cambridge because of platform length issues.