• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Whither XC after HS2?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,058
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If they are closer to regional services north of Brum, what rolling stock should be used?

Taking this a little further on, what should really become of the Manchester - Birmingham and Leeds - Birmingham XC routes?

Both will have 2 tph in to Curzon Street, but intermediate stations still require a service to Birmingham at least. I’d have thought that 1 tph would work best or 2 tph with significantly more stops. Given the routes south of Brum are not electrified I’d say the Leeds-Birmingham service is best for continuing south, whereas the Manchester-Birmingham service should either go to London or terminate.

Manchester-Birmingham would probably do better combining the WCML local services with the longer-distance stuff and operating a service rather more like that presently from Liverpool, i.e. skip-stopping regional expresses at 2 or 3tph, as the fast service will be HS2.

Liverpool doesn't get HS2 to Birmingham, so that is a bit different and so perhaps does justify a proper fast, which could come under "improvements on secondary routes that come from HS2".

I don't really know about Leeds, I'm not familiar with that route (I've only ever done it once, and scenery-wise it was deadly boring, so combined with the TOC being the awful Arriva XC I'm not likely to go there again in a hurry :) )
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Leeds should be 2tph but isn't because it can't be pathed and DfT insisted the 2nd train has to run via Doncaster even though TPE run fast Sheffield- Doncaster and ECML services run Doncaster- York- Newcastle- Scotland. Which means Cross Country services to and through Leeds are very overcrowded in non Covid times. They also take on some occasions well over 2 hours despite Leeds- Brum being half the distance of Leeds- London which has a similar journey time. Sheffield- Leeds fast is also only possible on the XC service !
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,270
Leeds should be 2tph but isn't because it can't be pathed and DfT insisted the 2nd train has to run via Doncaster even though TPE run fast Sheffield- Doncaster and ECML services run Doncaster- York- Newcastle- Scotland.
Running via Doncaster reduces the journey time from Newcastle to Birmingham relative to going via Leeds. That is the primary purpose for going that way. It certainly shouldn't be seen simply as a Doncaster to Sheffield fast.

Sheffield- Leeds fast is also only possible on the XC service !
The Barnsley service isn't unreasonably slow.

They also take on some occasions well over 2 hours despite Leeds- Brum being half the distance of Leeds- London which has a similar journey time.
That is why HS2 Eastern Leg is transformative.
 

biko

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2020
Messages
512
Location
Overijssel, the Netherlands
The whole discussion until now is about whether a change and massive time saving will be chosen over a direct slower service. From scientific research we know people prefer direct trains but not to any extent. As I understand it, changing onto HS2 will have massive time savings in some cases, so XC in its current form should completely change. It should complement HS2 by giving quick links between areas that are not served by HS2 (the whole southwest) and further afield. Also, it can focus on long-distance journeys to/from stations on the old routes that are not served by HS2. But when changing onto HS2 is only slightly quicker and a hassle, then keeping a XC service seems logical.

My rough idea would be the following with all services to New Street coupled to another one, based on the current frequencies because those should be possible in any case:
Southwest:
1 tph (Penzance -) Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham Moor Street (as few stations as possible between Exeter and Birmingham)
1 tph Exeter - Bristol - Birmingham New Street (more stops)

South:
1 tph Southampton - Reading - Birmingham New Street
1 tph Reading - Birmingham Moor Street

North:
1 tph Liverpool - Birmingham New Street
1 tph Scotland - Preston - Birmingham New Street (only if the time saving is high on the last part of HS2)

The services to Moor Street provide the quick connection to HS2, the services to New Street continue to places which are not connected by HS2, or which are not much faster by changing. I am considering a link to Nottingham via Derby as the time saving to Nottingham will be relatively slow if you take the connection time into account. In the current idea, services to Derby become regional services.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
Manchester-Birmingham would probably do better combining the WCML local services with the longer-distance stuff and operating a service rather more like that presently from Liverpool, i.e. skip-stopping regional expresses at 2 or 3tph, as the fast service will be HS2.

Liverpool doesn't get HS2 to Birmingham, so that is a bit different and so perhaps does justify a proper fast, which could come under "improvements on secondary routes that come from HS2".

I don't really know about Leeds, I'm not familiar with that route (I've only ever done it once, and scenery-wise it was deadly boring, so combined with the TOC being the awful Arriva XC I'm not likely to go there again in a hurry :) )

Yeah I agree with the Manchester-Birmingham WCML services becoming more like a Liverpool - Birmingham service. Personally I’d to see combination of:
  • 2 tph Edinburgh, Berwick, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly HS2, Birmingham Curzon Street
  • plus 2 tph skip-stop between Piccadilly & New Street, combining stoppers. I’m sure there must be slow stopping services that are 90 miles in length somewhere in the world!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The whole discussion until now is about whether a change and massive time saving will be chosen over a direct slower service. From scientific research we know people prefer direct trains but not to any extent. As I understand it, changing onto HS2 will have massive time savings in some cases, so XC in its current form should completely change. It should complement HS2 by giving quick links between areas that are not served by HS2 (the whole southwest) and further afield. Also, it can focus on long-distance journeys to/from stations on the old routes that are not served by HS2. But when changing onto HS2 is only slightly quicker and a hassle, then keeping a XC service seems logical.

My rough idea would be the following with all services to New Street coupled to another one, based on the current frequencies because those should be possible in any case:
Southwest:
1 tph (Penzance -) Plymouth - Bristol - Birmingham Moor Street (as few stations as possible between Exeter and Birmingham)
1 tph Exeter - Bristol - Birmingham New Street (more stops)

South:
1 tph Southampton - Reading - Birmingham New Street
1 tph Reading - Birmingham Moor Street

North:
1 tph Liverpool - Birmingham New Street
1 tph Scotland - Preston - Birmingham New Street (only if the time saving is high on the last part of HS2)

The services to Moor Street provide the quick connection to HS2, the services to New Street continue to places which are not connected by HS2, or which are not much faster by changing. I am considering a link to Nottingham via Derby as the time saving to Nottingham will be relatively slow if you take the connection time into account. In the current idea, services to Derby become regional services.

Looks sensible to me. Although would it not be better running the Scotland services on to Hull via Doncaster in order to pair up diesel running services?

PS, if you’re travelling from Reading to a HS2 connection, you’d most likely go to Old Oak Common. This might be a better route for Oxford too. Leamington, Banbury, Solihull connect to Moor Street through Chiltern, therefore you could run both South Coast services as a semi-fast in to New Street for onward connections. This should keep to your principal of fast to a HS2 node, but semi-fast for longer connective services.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,058
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Yeah I agree with the Manchester-Birmingham WCML services becoming more like a Liverpool - Birmingham service. Personally I’d to see combination of:
  • 2 tph Edinburgh, Berwick, Newcastle, Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly HS2, Birmingham Curzon Street
  • plus 2 tph skip-stop between Piccadilly & New Street, combining stoppers. I’m sure there must be slow stopping services that are 90 miles in length somewhere in the world!

Liverpool-Brum is about that! But in answer to your question on elsewhere, it is quite common in Germany to have 3 hour RegionalExpress runs, so this is short! :)
 

HST43257

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,650
Location
York
Ok so I’ll look at it this way: 7tph fast through Birmingham post HS2. 2tph from London, 2tph from Bristol (and beyond), 2tph from Reading (and beyond) and 1tph from Cardiff.

Where to send these? Well:
Bristol could be a big loser out of HS2. They still need direct hourly Leeds, Newcastle and Manchester services ideally. Manchester only needs 1tph post HS2. Would be good to see XC go back to Liverpool, taking the 2nd Manchester’s place. However, Stoke to Birmingham should stay at 2tph in my view. The XC services via Doncaster were done for speed mainly I feel, and those 3-4 Standard Class cars were packed some days. HS2 will displace the need for this service, but Donny, Sheffield and Derby still need quick connections to Birmingham and beyond. If you don’t need to send that north on the ECML (as I’m suggesting) it could go to Hull via Goole fairly easily - by this time I’d have built the doncaster flyover.

So how could these be put into a service pattern? (All are 1tph and via Birmingham New Street)
- Plymouth to Scotland (via ECML)
- Paignton to Manchester
- Cardiff to Hull
- London to Scotland (via WCML)
- Reading to Nottingham
- Reading to Liverpool
- London to Crewe (via Stoke)
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,270
by this time I’d have built the doncaster flyover.
There is already a 'Doncaster flyover' between Hexthorpe Junction and Bentley Junction. It just doesn't go directly over the station. Not much use to miss out Doncaster though.

A Cross Country service to Hull would simply take the path of the current Sheffield to Scarborough Northern service between Sheffield and Hull.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
Ok so I’ll look at it this way: 7tph fast through Birmingham post HS2. 2tph from London, 2tph from Bristol (and beyond), 2tph from Reading (and beyond) and 1tph from Cardiff.

Where to send these? Well:
Bristol could be a big loser out of HS2. They still need direct hourly Leeds, Newcastle and Manchester services ideally. Manchester only needs 1tph post HS2. Would be good to see XC go back to Liverpool, taking the 2nd Manchester’s place. However, Stoke to Birmingham should stay at 2tph in my view. The XC services via Doncaster were done for speed mainly I feel, and those 3-4 Standard Class cars were packed some days. HS2 will displace the need for this service, but Donny, Sheffield and Derby still need quick connections to Birmingham and beyond. If you don’t need to send that north on the ECML (as I’m suggesting) it could go to Hull via Goole fairly easily - by this time I’d have built the doncaster flyover.

So how could these be put into a service pattern? (All are 1tph and via Birmingham New Street)
- Plymouth to Scotland (via ECML)
- Paignton to Manchester
- Cardiff to Hull
- London to Scotland (via WCML)
- Reading to Nottingham
- Reading to Liverpool
- London to Crewe (via Stoke)

There won’t be the capacity on the ECML north of York for Plymouth-Scotland service. This is where HS2 brings about changes.

There will be 3 HS2, at least 2 NPR and at least 1 ECML to London
 
Last edited:

Hey 3

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2020
Messages
330
Location
Manchester, UK
Cross Country services (like Penzance/BTM to Aberdeen/North West) should use HS2 infrastructure from Birmingham Curzon Street to Manchester Piccadilly/York in my opinion.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,270
Cross Country services (like Penzance/BTM to Aberdeen/North West) should use HS2 infrastructure from Birmingham Curzon Street to Manchester Piccadilly/York in my opinion.
Opinions don't create trackwork that doesn't exist. There have been numerous threads that haven't found any way of building a connection from the South West into Curzon Street.

Part of the issue is stopping scope creep - HS2 into Curzon Street is already planned and being built - it is a bit late to make changes.

Interesting question about how many years it will be between HS2 being finished and its trains being capable of reaching either Plymouth or Aberdeen through electrification. No one is anticipating bi-modes (battery, diesel or anything else) running on HS2.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
Opinions don't create trackwork that doesn't exist. There have been numerous threads that haven't found any way of building a connection from the South West into Curzon Street.

Part of the issue is stopping scope creep - HS2 into Curzon Street is already planned and being built - it is a bit late to make changes.

Interesting question about how many years it will be between HS2 being finished and its trains being capable of reaching either Plymouth or Aberdeen through electrification. No one is anticipating bi-modes (battery, diesel or anything else) running on HS2.

I think if Bristol services ever get on to HS2, it will be via the GWML and a new line through Oxford.
 

HST43257

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,650
Location
York
There won’t be the capacity on the ECML north of York for Plymouth-Scotland service. This is where HS2 brings about changes.

There will be 3 HS2, at least 2 NPR and at least 1 ECML to London
We still need services stop at Northallerton, especially given the fact that HS2 and (I think) NPR dont plan to stop there.

There is already a 'Doncaster flyover' between Hexthorpe Junction and Bentley Junction. It just doesn't go directly over the station. Not much use to miss out Doncaster though.
Im thinking 2 extra platforms next to Platform 8, for a route from Sheffield to Goole/Scunthorpe via Doncaster that doesnt cross the ladder.

A Cross Country service to Hull would simply take the path of the current Sheffield to Scarborough Northern service between Sheffield and Hull.
That could be plausible. I can’t imagine the Scarborough to Sheffield is too reliable with the combination of the single line north of Brid and numerous long distance conflicting moves.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
We have had these discussions before. Liverpool, Manchester and Preston don"t each need a service every three hours to Plymouth just so some people don't have to change trains.

Liverpool had a train every half an hour to Birmingham until March 2020 that had connections for both Cross Country routes further south. Preston one every hour.

Maybe XC switching Manchester for Liverpool on the Bristol / Exeter service makes sense post HS2 in place of the LNR service but it will need to continue to serve Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn and Hartford.

It is essentially only possible to run half hourly from Birmingham to Bristol - one train from the route through Derby and one train from the route through Stafford, preferably the same destination all day and convenient connections to the other places.

^^ Best comment on this thread ^^

XC is all about opportunity cost. There are a limited number of paths through Birmingham, so adding any new place to the service pattern is probably going to come at the cost of another place that loses its service.

So if you want to run an hourly Liverpool/Hull service then that means removing an hourly service from either Manchester or Newcastle. If you want to run an hourly Portsmouth/Brighton service then that means removing an hourly service from Bristol (or at least a bi-hourly service from Southampton).

Slice it up however you want but there aren't going to be a lot of additional paths through New Street to permit anything much more ambitious than what we currently have.

If you want to pay Paul then you're going to have to rob Peter. Maybe there's an argument that Paul is more deserving of the money than Peter, sure, but the starting position is effectively "half hourly from Birmingham to Stafford/ Sheffield/ Reading/ Bristol", and any additional destinations come at the cost of existing ones (e.g. if we keep two trains per hour then Manchester must lose out for Liverpool to gain).

And my person preference is to keep things simple with hourly and half hourly services - trying to run patterns of less frequent services to tick as many boxes as possible is a recipe for disaster (e.g. giving Plymouth a service to Liverpool, Carlisle, Manchester, Leeds, Doncaster and Nottingham might mean an hourly Plymouth - Birmingham service but how are you finding paths for these irregular services further north? Will there be a six-hourly path into all of these places? Which is unused in other hours? Put the crayons down.

Yet again, what about Bournemouth and Southampton? Why does their current well used hourly XC service suddenly get abandoned, yet Brighton gains one, using a route already known to have no capacity for XC?

I thought that the aim of the thread was to come up with as many contrary suggestions as possible (putting Liverpool, Blackpool, Bradford, Barnsley, Scarborough, Holyhead, Hull etc - and Brighton - always Brighton - on the Cross Country network) whilst ignoring the long established routes that people currently rely upon (and not just to go beyond Birmingham, but to do regional journeys like Basingstoke to Oxford - but such ordinary demands appear a lot less fun than getting the crayons out and randomly linking places far apart (see also "Cardiff - Birmingham - Aberystwyth"!)
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,240
...I thought that the aim of the thread was to come up with as many contrary suggestions as possible (putting Liverpool, Blackpool, Bradford, Barnsley, Scarborough, Holyhead, Hull etc - and Brighton - always Brighton - on the Cross Country network) whilst ignoring the long established routes that people currently rely upon (and not just to go beyond Birmingham, but to do regional journeys like Basingstoke to Oxford - but such ordinary demands appear a lot less fun than getting the crayons out and randomly linking places far apart (see also "Cardiff - Birmingham - Aberystwyth"!)
Nice one! :D Wondered where that was going for a second or two...
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
Birmingham Curzon Street-OOC - 38 minutes.
OOC-WLL interhchange - 15 minute(ish)
WLL to Clapham Junction - 19 minutes

Something like 72 minutes out of Curzon Street you are already at Clapham Junction

That gets you to about Oxford.

So if you aren't closer to Oxford than Clapham Junction......
From further north the advantage will be even larger.

Clearly to impove southern-XC journeys, the objective should be to make sure that HS2-WLL interchange is as smooth as possible and drive WLL service densities as high as we possibly can.

(EDIT: Even if you are going to a place too far east to reach from Clapham Junction, you can take Crossrail to Stratford for Southeastern destinations)
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Birmingham Curzon Street-OOC - 38 minutes.
OOC-WLL interhchange - 15 minute(ish)
WLL to Clapham Junction - 19 minutes

Something like 72 minutes out of Curzon Street you are already at Clapham Junction

That gets you to about Oxford.

So if you aren't closer to Oxford than Clapham Junction......
From further north the advantage will be even larger.

Clearly to impove southern-XC journeys, the objective should be to make sure that HS2-WLL interchange is as smooth as possible and drive WLL service densities as high as we possibly can.

(EDIT: Even if you are going to a place too far east to reach from Clapham Junction, you can take Crossrail to Stratford for Southeastern destinations)

Could you please explain the first paragraph how to get from Birmingham to Oxford via HS2 and Clapham Junction? Although south of the Thames is like a foreign country to me, on the odd occasions I have used Clapham Junction, I have never, ever seen any direct trains to Oxford.

Would it be possible for you to do a calculation Birmingham - Oxford via HS2 and Crossrail to Reading, then local train to Oxford to see how the timings compare?

Also, in the last paragraph, are you referring to the TOC Southeastern (the routes south of the Thames from Victoria, Charing Cross, and Cannon Street), or the former European Parliament Region? As far as I am aware, there are no direct trains from Stratford to south of the Thames.

PS I am not having a go as to speak, but I would like some clarification for the points I have raised.
 

The Planner

Veteran Member
Joined
15 Apr 2008
Messages
19,642
Could you please explain the first paragraph how to get from Birmingham to Oxford via HS2 and Clapham Junction? Although south of the Thames is like a foreign country to me, on the odd occasions I have used Clapham Junction, I have never, ever seen any direct trains to Oxford.

Would it be possible for you to do a calculation Birmingham - Oxford via HS2 and Crossrail to Reading, then local train to Oxford to see how the timings compare?

Also, in the last paragraph, are you referring to the TOC Southeastern (the routes south of the Thames from Victoria, Charing Cross, and Cannon Street), or the former European Parliament Region? As far as I am aware, there are no direct trains from Stratford to south of the Thames.

PS I am not having a go as to speak, but I would like some clarification for the points I have raised.
He isn't saying that, he is saying that Birmingham to Oxford via existing XC is 72 minutes and in that time via HS2 you could be at Clapham Jn. Going to Oxford via OOC and Reading would be daft. Paddington to Oxford on a fast Worcester is about 53 minutes. Call it 45-46 from OOC, add on the 38 minutes Curzon St to OOC via HS2 and a minimum 10 minute interchange (possibly more) you are looking at 90-95 minutes.
 

Purple Orange

On Moderation
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
3,459
Location
The North
We still need services stop at Northallerton, especially given the fact that HS2 and (I think) NPR dont plan to stop there.
I’d expect at least NPR to provide services and the Kings Cross service to stop there. NPR is basically a faster TPE, who provide 3 of the 4 tph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

He isn't saying that, he is saying that Birmingham to Oxford via existing XC is 72 minutes and in that time via HS2 you could be at Clapham Jn. Going to Oxford via OOC and Reading would be daft. Paddington to Oxford on a fast Worcester is about 53 minutes. Call it 45-46 from OOC, add on the 38 minutes Curzon St to OOC via HS2 and a minimum 10 minute interchange (possibly more) you are looking at 90-95 minutes.

It’s interesting that Birmingham-Oxford via OOC is not viable, but Manchester-Oxford via OOC is.

Manc-OOC: 64 mins (3 tph)
OOC-Oxford: 46 mins (2 tph)
Total: 110 mins

Manc-Brum: 41 mins (2 tph)
Brum-Oxford: 72 mins (2 tph)
Total:113 mins

Given the higher capacity on the OOC route and the marginally greater frequency, northern cities to Oxford and further south is better via a London bound HS2 service.

By the time you reach OOC, the XC service is 30 mins north of Birmingham.
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,273
Could you please explain the first paragraph how to get from Birmingham to Oxford via HS2 and Clapham Junction? Although south of the Thames is like a foreign country to me, on the odd occasions I have used Clapham Junction, I have never, ever seen any direct trains to Oxford.

Sorry for the confusion, I'm saying that if you are going to the South Coast of England, by the time you can be at Clapham Junction via HS2, with all the journey options that entails, you would have just about made it to Oxford.

There seems unlikely to be much market for non HS2 journeys from HS2 connected northern/midland destinations to the South Coast of England.
HS2 is just too much faster.

Also, in the last paragraph, are you referring to the TOC Southeastern (the routes south of the Thames from Victoria, Charing Cross, and Cannon Street), or the former European Parliament Region? As far as I am aware, there are no direct trains from Stratford to south of the Thames.
Stratford International for the HS1 services to Kent operated by the TOC Southeastern.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
And removing one from Manchester would seem reasonable given that it'll gain one on HS2.

Okay, so (as well as removing the current interworking that means a northbound Bournemouth service becomes a southbound Bristol service - meaning you'd have a much longer layover in Manchester, occupying platforms etc) then does Manchester lose 100% of its Bristol services or 100% of its Bournemouth services? (given the hourly paths, you can't reduce them both by 50%, you have to cut one fully)

And does the hourly Liverpool XC service pick up the same local calls that the current 350 operated service does to Birmingham? Or are going to find space at Lime Street for a local service (filling the gaps as far as Crewe) as well as the XC service?

Will Liverpool - Birmingham passengers accept the reduced capacity on a single Voyager compared to the current EMUs? Or does Liverpool get doubled up Voyagers in this plan? (assuming that XC services are stuck with Voyagers long term, since there's nowhere else for them to go)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,058
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Okay, so (as well as removing the current interworking that means a northbound Bournemouth service becomes a southbound Bristol service - meaning you'd have a much longer layover in Manchester, occupying platforms etc) then does Manchester lose 100% of its Bristol services or 100% of its Bournemouth services? (given the hourly paths, you can't reduce them both by 50%, you have to cut one fully)

I don't know. You could do a passenger/ticketing survey to see which is the more popular as the through destination, or it might be dictated by which paths work.

And does the hourly Liverpool XC service pick up the same local calls that the current 350 operated service does to Birmingham? Or are going to find space at Lime Street for a local service (filling the gaps as far as Crewe) as well as the XC service?

The 350s are I believe skip-stopped, so you would slow it down to pick up more stops, or consider adding a Crewe stopper.

Will Liverpool - Birmingham passengers accept the reduced capacity on a single Voyager compared to the current EMUs? Or does Liverpool get doubled up Voyagers in this plan? (assuming that XC services are stuck with Voyagers long term, since there's nowhere else for them to go)

I will eat my hat if XC are still using only Voyagers by the time HS2 has fully opened, which is what this is talking about. I would expect something 80x-like to have replaced them by then, and even a 5 x 26m 80x is a considerable capacity uplift on a Voyager.

HS2 isn't due to open fully until 2033, which is a prerequisite of taking away any of Manchester's long distance services. By then I would unsurprised to see there being an outright ban on all diesel-powered transport in the larger city centres (certainly Manchester and Birmingham), which would render Voyagers useless (and 195s cascaded onto branch lines away from cities). They'll also be over 30 years old by then, which is a decent innings for a DMU anyway. I would expect to see them scrapped (actually scrapped, as they aren't useful for much else) in the late 2020s, if not before.
 
Last edited:

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,648
Here’s my suggestion:

1) the same service pattern that exists from late 2023

Err that’s it.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
He isn't saying that, he is saying that Birmingham to Oxford via existing XC is 72 minutes and in that time via HS2 you could be at Clapham Jn. Going to Oxford via OOC and Reading would be daft. Paddington to Oxford on a fast Worcester is about 53 minutes. Call it 45-46 from OOC, add on the 38 minutes Curzon St to OOC via HS2 and a minimum 10 minute interchange (possibly more) you are looking at 90-95 minutes.

Many thanks for clearing that up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry for the confusion, I'm saying that if you are going to the South Coast of England, by the time you can be at Clapham Junction via HS2, with all the journey options that entails, you would have just about made it to Oxford.

There seems unlikely to be much market for non HS2 journeys from HS2 connected northern/midland destinations to the South Coast of England.
HS2 is just too much faster.


Stratford International for the HS1 services to Kent operated by the TOC Southeastern.

Many thanks.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,270
Here’s my suggestion:

1) the same service pattern that exists from late 2023

Err that’s it.
What is happening in late 2023?

Is it the same as what happened in late 2019 but with some more certainty about the impact of COVID-19 on long term plans?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,648
What is happening in late 2023?

Is it the same as what happened in late 2019 but with some more certainty about the impact of COVID-19 on long term plans?

When all the post Covid / new operating model service changes are worked through.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top