Which TOCs would you combine or split to make them better?

[Anonymous10]

Here are my ideas and suggestions on a nationwide remapping of the rail framchises, I drafted while I’ve had more time off work recently. I welcome suggestions to improve these ideas, but they are only ideas! Also my knowledge is slightly limited away from the SW and Wales areas, and very poor in the South East so I apologise if my ideas in these areas are not as good as they could be!

Anyway hope you enjoy reading this document!

I like the idea of a 2 hourly service from Pembroke Dock to Manchester and the extension of the Nottingha-cardiff service just wondering would you change gwr up eg west the weekly summer service

 

[tetudo boy]

Here are my ideas and suggestions on a nationwide remapping of the rail framchises, I drafted while I’ve had more time off work recently. I welcome suggestions to improve these ideas, but they are only ideas! Also my knowledge is slightly limited away from the SW and Wales areas, and very poor in the South East so I apologise if my ideas in these areas are not as good as they could be!

Anyway hope you enjoy reading this document!

This look's EPIC!!!!
However, you got a few things' wrong:
1. A few typo's
2. You mixed up Winsford and Hartford stops with them being in between Stafford and Crewe instead of being in between Crewe and Runcorn.

 

[tetudo boy]

This look's EPIC!!!!
However, you got a few things' wrong:
1. A few typo's
2. You mixed up Winsford and Hartford stops with them being in between Stafford and Crewe instead of being in between Crewe and Runcorn.

Apart from those, I actually did a similar project here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...c-new-services-stations-across-the-uk.202539/

 

[London Trains]

Here are my ideas and suggestions on a nationwide remapping of the rail framchises, I drafted while I’ve had more time off work recently. I welcome suggestions to improve these ideas, but they are only ideas! Also my knowledge is slightly limited away from the SW and Wales areas, and very poor in the South East so I apologise if my ideas in these areas are not as good as they could be!

Anyway hope you enjoy reading this document!

Most of those ideas are very good!

However there's no chance TfL would take over services to Horsham, Dorking, Guildford, Brighton, Bedford, Cambridge, Peterborough or Gravesend as they are not in or near London.

 

[TheWalrus]

This look's EPIC!!!!
However, you got a few things' wrong:
1. A few typo's
2. You mixed up Winsford and Hartford stops with them being in between Stafford and Crewe instead of being in between Crewe and Runcorn.

I’m glad you like it! 1) typos due to trouble with my keyboard! 2) thanks for this, I wasn’t sure where they were and forgot to go back and check!

 

[TheWalrus]

I like the idea of a 2 hourly service from Pembroke Dock to Manchester and the extension of the Nottingha-cardiff service just wondering would you change gwr up eg west the weekly summer service

Apologies Pembroke wasn’t mentioned, I would expect GWR services to west Wales to remain the same. As a rule if I haven’t mentioned changing something, chances are I intend for it to stay as it is now.

I have toyed with the idea of terminating Cardiff-Nottingham services at Birmingham New Street or International and transferring to TfW. However potential problems would be a) available paths to Intl and b) more terminating trains at New Street.

 

[tetudo boy]

I’m glad you like it! 1) typos due to trouble with my keyboard! 2) thanks for this, I wasn’t sure where they were and forgot to go back and check!

Thanks!!! Did you see the post I did about my thread?

 

[TheWalrus]

Most of those ideas are very good!

However there's no chance TfL would take over services to Horsham, Dorking, Guildford, Brighton, Bedford, Cambridge, Peterborough or Gravesend as they are not in or near London.

Ok makes sense, thanks for the feedback! There’s no reason these services couldn’t be incorporated into my “Greater Southern” franchise proposal, however I wanted to bring all London suburban services under TfL Rail, aling with Thameslink services, in order to ensure the Greater Southern franchise wasn’t too big. I have made it big enough as it is! Lol

 

[TheWalrus]

Thanks!!! Did you see the post I did about my thread?

Not yet just about to. Busy replying to all my responses lol

 

[TheWalrus]

UPDATED version of my document, taking into account suggestions from posters on this thread.

 

[MarkyT]

I see this comment every now and again and think the complete opposite, that the current setup is fine but if there did have to be a change made Southeastern could be merged into GTR (or successor). What are your actual reasons for wanting such separation, and why is it too big and unweidly?

If inner suburban services of both Southern, Southeastern and TL were absorbed into TfL, then combining the longer distance operations of Southern and SE could make sense for economy of scale and opportunities for usefully modifying service patterns around the boundaries. TL long distance should probably be separate as a 'North of Thames' focused operator with its comparatively small range of destinations south of the river. GN inners are an obvious TfL candidate.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Apologies Pembroke wasn’t mentioned, I would expect GWR services to west Wales to remain the same. As a rule if I haven’t mentioned changing something, chances are I intend for it to stay as it is now.

I have toyed with the idea of terminating Cardiff-Nottingham services at Birmingham New Street or International and transferring to TfW. However potential problems would be a) available paths to Intl and b) more terminating trains at New Street.

Not to mention the "through Birmingham" passenger flows , I speak with some knowledge on planning this now well-established service, and the number of Newport - Derby and so on flows are not irrelevant. Which is why it is in XC. Operational considerations need to be balanced against (normal) passenger demands.

 

[TheWalrus]

Not to mention the "through Birmingham" passenger flows , I speak with some knowledge on planning this now well-established service, and the number of Newport - Derby and so on flows are not irrelevant. Which is why it is in XC. Operational considerations need to be balanced against (normal) passenger demands.

This was another point I didn’t mention, yet another reason I kept it as is.

 

[mspljd1990]

I've seen the idea of the Yorkshire & North Eastern half of Northern be merged with LNER posted on here a few times, similar to regional services being incorporated into GWR and EMR and it's actually not a bad idea. Plus it'd be nice having red back on the trains in West Yorkshire, akin to the old Metro Trains. Just have the NW side rebranded as North Western, retaining the modern livery. Who'd keep the 331s/195s though?

The transpennine routes under Northern (York to Blackpool, Leeds to Manchester Victoria, Leeds to Morecambe/Lancaster/Carlisle) were all operated by Arriva Trains Northern so they can still be kept by LNER. I'd also keep the Leeds to Nottingham train. I'm not sure about the recent long distance services from Leeds to Chester, Wigan and Lincoln though. I'd maybe just have the former two terminate at Victoria and the latter at Sheffield.

I also agree that XC and TPE should merge, or at least give the Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland TPE routes to XC, as they don't cross the pennines. I'd also give the Liverpool to Norwich route to XC as well.

 

[Wolfie]

More importantly what would the benefit be other than nostalgia!

Why the 1920s nostalgia? Why not earlier?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Aug 2020 ==

I'd bin all the London suburban routes off into TFL. Same with all the other big city suburban local routes, give them to the local authority to run. The rest of it I'd just clump into bigger regional groupings along the lines of the old setup with Wales and Scotland running their own stuff. I'd do something about Thameslink too, I'm not sure what yet, but I'd certainly take them down a peg or two. I'd boot them off the north kent and Catford loop lines and send them into Moorgate like they used to do (but from Finsbury Park, not Farringdon). Maybe seal up the core just north of City Thameslink and run Networkers back into Smithfield again.

If taken at face value and not as a complete pee take that is the most ludicrous, Luddite, post that l think l've ever seen on here (which is one heck of an achievement). Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg in disguise? Let's not bother with any of those suggestions, most of which appear solely motivated by hatred of one brand operated by one TOC with zero practical rationale, thanks.

 

[YorksLad12]

I must be weird in mostly not having an issue with TPE, apart from the West Coast route which makes them some money (running through five former PTE areas with historically lower fares probably doesn't). But Hull-Manchester doesn't fit with LNER or AWC, really, at either end. So leave it as it is, take away the distractions (including Newcastle-Edinburgh) and make it fit for its core purpose or running trans-Pennine rail services.

Northern is already split into four internal divisions, mostly self-contained. Take out the cross-division services into a sub-franchise ("Northern Connect") and leave the rest.

Of course, we're not expecting franchising to last much longer, are we?

 

[markymark2000]

I must be weird in mostly not having an issue with TPE, apart from the West Coast route which makes them some money (running through five former PTE areas with historically lower fares probably doesn't). But Hull-Manchester doesn't fit with LNER or AWC, really, at either end. So leave it as it is, take away the distractions (including Newcastle-Edinburgh) and make it fit for its core purpose or running trans-Pennine rail services.

Northern is already split into four internal divisions, mostly self-contained. Take out the cross-division services into a sub-franchise ("Northern Connect") and leave the rest.

Of course, we're not expecting franchising to last much longer, are we?

To be fair, some of the Northern Connect stuff would fit in with other franchises so you wouldn't even need to have 4 sub division 'Northern' areas once you have moved routes around. I think it's a shame there there is a reluctance to move routes between TOCs which better suit the service but I can see it from the perspective of moving routes costs money and in the short term at least there is no benefit.

 

[tetudo boy]

The Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services could go to Avanti West Coast.

 

[Anonymous10]

I've seen the idea of the Yorkshire & North Eastern half of Northern be merged with LNER posted on here a few times, similar to regional services being incorporated into GWR and EMR and it's actually not a bad idea. Plus it'd be nice having red back on the trains in West Yorkshire, akin to the old Metro Trains. Just have the NW side rebranded as North Western, retaining the modern livery. Who'd keep the 331s/195s though?

The transpennine routes under Northern (York to Blackpool, Leeds to Manchester Victoria, Leeds to Morecambe/Lancaster/Carlisle) were all operated by Arriva Trains Northern so they can still be kept by LNER. I'd also keep the Leeds to Nottingham train. I'm not sure about the recent long distance services from Leeds to Chester, Wigan and Lincoln though. I'd maybe just have the former two terminate at Victoria and the latter at Sheffield.

I also agree that XC and TPE should merge, or at least give the Liverpool/Manchester to Scotland TPE routes to XC, as they don't cross the pennines. I'd also give the Liverpool to Norwich route to XC as well.

Before giving XC any more routes let's get them new trains

 

[HST43257]

Southeastern could be split into HS1 and regular
Many TOCS could split into Intercity, Regional and Commuter (where applicable) parts. For example EMR, ScotRail, GWR, TfW and Northern.

 

[Anonymous10]

Southeastern could be split into HS1 and regular
Many TOCS could split into Intercity, Regional and Commuter (where applicable) parts. For example EMR, ScotRail, GWR, TfW and Northern.

Tfw don't have many long distance routes

 

[HST43257]

Tfw don't have many long distance routes

It would basically be Manchester to West Wales and Cardiff to Holyhead.

 

[Anonymous10]

It would basically be Manchester to West Wales and Cardiff to Holyhead.

Precisely why I'd leave it be

 

[2L70]

Split off the Lincolnshire lines from EMR and transfer them to Northern.

Agree with merging TPE and XC.

 

[daodao]

TPE should be split up, with the Standedge services operated by Northern (as Northern connect; 2nd class only will suffice) and not running north of Newcastle, the TPE WCML services transferred to Avanti WC and terminated at Manchester Victoria/Liverpool, and the Hope Valley fast service transferred to EMR (2nd class only will suffice).

EMR should also take over some Northern local services in the East Midlands/Lincolnshire/South Yorkshire, including Nottingham to Leeds, Sheffield to Scunthorpe/Adwick, Cleethorpes to Barton, Sheffield to Gainsborough/Cleethorpes/Lincoln, Sheffield to Manchester via New Mills and Hyde Central and the diesel services on the Buxton line. EMR would need an additional depot at Manchester and more facilities at/close to Sheffield and Grimsby. Northern should continue running a Rose Hill-Manchester service via Reddish for the time being, but this should be converted to Metrolink asap.

TfW should take over the Mid Cheshire line services.

 

[Meerkat]

TPE should be split up, with the Standedge services operated by Northern (as Northern connect; 2nd class only will suffice) and not running north of Newcastle, the TPE WCML services transferred to Avanti WC and terminated at Manchester Victoria/Liverpool, and the Hope Valley fast service transferred to EMR (2nd class only will suffice).

Why don’t Northern Intercity customers deserve first class?
i just don’t see the need to break TPE up, if anything it should gain some of the Connect services and Hope Valley. Do that and it’s much easier to break Northern up into the PTE areas

TfW should take over the Mid Cheshire line services.

The Welsh government running a service that is entirely in England?Why?

 

[daodao]

Why don’t Northern Intercity customers deserve first class? i just don’t see the need to break TPE up, if anything it should gain some of the Connect services and Hope Valley. Do that and it’s much easier to break Northern up into the PTE areas

The Welsh government running a service that is entirely in England?Why?

TPE is an unnecessary regional franchise, that is neither truly inter-city nor regional, and currently provides a poor service. The only real demand for first class is on longer distance services to/from London or Scotland. Shorter distance traffic within the less affluent north of England doesn't need wasteful first class provision.

The Wales and Borders franchise is not purely a Welsh franchise (unlike Scotrail) and already runs many of the local services in the Welsh Marches, including Cheshire. The Mid Cheshire line is best operated from a base at Chester, not Manchester.

Transfer of the following diesel services from Northern would eliminate Northern-run diesel services south of the Mersey and simplify operations:

• Sheffield-New Mills-Hyde-M/c and Buxton-M/c to EMR
• Rose Hill-Reddish-M/c to Metrolink
• Chester-Northwich-Stockport-M/c to Wales & Borders franchise

 

[Meerkat]

TPE is an unnecessary regional franchise, that is neither truly inter-city nor regional, and currently provides a poor service. The only real demand for first class is on longer distance services to/from London or Scotland. Shorter distance traffic within the less affluent north of England doesn't need wasteful first class provision.

So Northerners are too poor to deserve first class? Why is TPE unnecessary?

The Wales and Borders franchise is not purely a Welsh franchise (unlike Scotrail) and already runs many of the local services in the Welsh Marches, including Cheshire

TfW only really runs on the fringes of Wales and that isn’t all that popular for either side.

Transfer of the following diesel services from Northern would eliminate Northern-run diesel services south of the Mersey and simplify operations:

• Sheffield-New Mills-Hyde-M/c and Buxton-M/c to EMR

Transferring a service that’s entirely West of the Pennines to East Midlands simplifies operations? Difficult sell that.

 

[daodao]

...Transferring a service that’s entirely West of the Pennines to East Midlands simplifies operations? Difficult sell that.

Buxton is in Derbyshire, which is in the East Midlands, and is on the eastern side of the Irish Sea/North Sea watershed, so can be regarded as being on the eastern side of the Pennines. The boundary between East and West of the Pennines in that area is at Shining Tor, which is sited to the west of Buxton.

 

[Meerkat]

Buxton is in Derbyshire, which is in the East Midlands, and is on the eastern side of the Irish Sea/North Sea watershed, so can be regarded as being on the eastern side of the Pennines. The boundary between East and West of the Pennines in that area is at Shining Tor, which is sited to the west of Buxton.

Is it easier to get to Manchester or Derby?
Buxton should be in the Greater Manchester PTE area and served accordingly