Which TOCs would you combine or split to make them better?

[Alex27]

I'd just combine them all into a single nationalised public facing body (BR), albeit probably operationally similar to BR's regions (basically just BR then)

 

[Purple Orange]

TPE offers a good service IMHO and have a good brand identity. People on here get hung up about “trans pennine” on the WCML, but that is just pedantry for no good reason. It feels, these days, like an intercity service. The only drawback is that 5-car trains will be too short in a few years time.

If there is an LNER and a TPE IET train stood at Newcastle Central on P2 and P3, both heading to Edinburgh, I feel no discernible difference between the two. If a XC service also heading to Edinburgh pulled up alongside on P4, I would personally avoid the XC service because the state of their trains are usually not as well kept.

 

[tetudo boy]

I'd just combine them all into a single nationalised public facing body (BR), albeit probably operationally similar to BR's regions (basically just BR then)

About nationalization, there are considerations right now to do so on the Williams review.

 

[YorksLad12]

TPE offers a good service IMHO and have a good brand identity. People on here get hung up about “trans pennine” on the WCML, but that is just pedantry for no good reason. It feels, these days, like an intercity service. The only drawback is that 5-car trains will be too short in a few years time.

If there is an LNER and a TPE IET train stood at Newcastle Central on P2 and P3, both heading to Edinburgh, I feel no discernible difference between the two. If a XC service also heading to Edinburgh pulled up alongside on P4, I would personally avoid the XC service because the state of their trains are usually not as well kept.

Not just pedantry; I think they should concentrate on their core offering, is all.

I went to Edinburgh from Leeds in January and had the choice of direct XC (no), direct TPE (er...) or change at York onto an LNER service. I went with the one with the cheapest tickets that allowed me to travel First, in comfort, with food. Despite also being a class 80X, it wasn't TPE

 

[py_megapixel]

I wouldn't split or combine anything at the moment, with the possible exception of giving commuter services to the relevant PTE.

The DfT seems to get so hung-up on shuffling routes between TOCs, rather than actually improving the quality of service (see the pointless transfer of Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool to Northern)

 

[markymark2000]

I wouldn't split or combine anything at the moment, with the possible exception of giving commuter services to the relevant PTE.

The DfT seems to get so hung-up on shuffling routes between TOCs, rather than actually improving the quality of service (see the pointless transfer of Barrow/Windermere and Blackpool to Northern)

Oh my word, don't give PTEs more things for them to cock up. Most PTEs struggle to run what they have now. They couldn't plan effective networks for love nor money. Giving them more will just prove how incompetant they are and in the long run will cost more to the taxpayers in recovering the mess that is made. PTEs also don't care about anything which goes on just outside of their area and given very few routes are contained to just run within a PTE area, you will be wasting your time and a hell of a lot of taxpayers money.

 

[py_megapixel]

Oh my word, don't give PTEs more things for them to cock up. Most PTEs struggle to run what they have now. They couldn't plan effective networks for love nor money. Giving them more will just prove how incompetant they are and in the long run will cost more to the taxpayers in recovering the mess that is made.

This is why I said possible exception. Some PTE operated services do quite a good job. There would need to be studies/consultations on city-by-city basis as to whether it's actually the best thing for the passengers, which it sometimes (not always) will be.

However that's not to say TOCs can't cock things up either. In 2018 if I was in Manchester and needed to travel from Manchester Airport to the city centre, I'd probably be betting on the slower PTE-run Metrolink service, because Northern and TPE were such an utter farce at that point that I wouldn't have been comfortable relying on them.

PTEs also don't care about anything which goes on just outside of their area and given very few routes are contained to just run within a PTE area, you will be wasting your time and a hell of a lot of taxpayers money.

This is a genuine concern, however if commuter towns are outside the relevant PTE area for the main destination of their commuters, then in my opinion it makes sense in at least some cases to extend the PTE boundary to include them. I don't advocate the complete abolition of, say, Northern running out of Manchester - adding the Mid Cheshire line to the PTE area for Manchester, for example, is clearly daft.

 

[markymark2000]

This is why I said possible exception. Some PTE operated services do quite a good job. There would need to be studies/consultations on city-by-city basis as to whether it's actually the best thing for the passengers, which it sometimes (not always) will be.

It will rarely if ever be better for the passengers. In the short term it might while the PTE tries to prove it's worth but after that, it will be more of a farce than now. Standards and services will slowly start decreasing and PTEs will do everything they can to save money and then cry out for more help like Andy Burnham keeps doing because PTEs can't run things efficiently. Spend, spend, spend to start with and get the MPs/councillors some good publicity then save, save, save because they realise that it's not sustainable.

However that's not to say TOCs can't cock things up either. In 2018 if I was in Manchester and needed to travel from Manchester Airport to the city centre, I'd probably be betting on the slower PTE-run Metrolink service, because Northern and TPE were such an utter farce at that point that I wouldn't have been comfortable relying on them.

TOCs can make a mess of things, I do not dispute that but how much of the 2018 problems were out of the TOCs control? It was everyone's fault for the timetable failure DFT, Network Rail and TOCs. I trust TOCs a lot more though than PTEs to run services properly and more fairly.

This is a genuine concern, however if commuter towns are outside the relevant PTE area for the main destination of their commuters, then in my opinion it makes sense in at least some cases to extend the PTE boundary to include them. I don't advocate the complete abolition of, say, Northern running out of Manchester - adding the Mid Cheshire line to the PTE area for Manchester, for example, is clearly daft.

Care to explain then why Chester and Ellesmere Port are always the first to be cut back then when something goes on in Liverpool despite the Chester to Liverpool corridor being arguably Merseyrails biggest earner? Ellesmere Port is always worse off ans reduced to a shuttle or worse service. On the Covid timetables, Chester had an hourly service while other areas I believe West Kirby and New Brighton each had 40 minute frequency. The difference in usage is huge yet, as my point says, PTEs want the revenue from season tickets from commuter towns but as soon as something does wrong or an event is on etc, the PTE area has priority and outside areas shafted.

 

[Meerkat]

Why would PTEs be any worse than the DfT?

 

[py_megapixel]

It will rarely if ever be better for the passengers. In the short term it might while the PTE tries to prove it's worth but after that, it will be more of a farce than now. Standards and services will slowly start decreasing and PTEs will do everything they can to save money and then cry out for more help like Andy Burnham keeps doing because PTEs can't run things efficiently. Spend, spend, spend to start with and get the MPs/councillors some good publicity then save, save, save because they realise that it's not sustainable.

Possibly that's because the government likes starving local authorities, including PTEs, of funding? And the solution to that is tax raises and/or an acceptance that once money is raised through the tax system, it does not "belong" to taxpayers anymore and needs to be spent in whatever way is most beneficial to the public, not to individual people.

 

[markymark2000]

Why would PTEs be any worse than the DfT?

PTEs look good on the outside but inside, they are just as bad as the DFT.

For example, Arriva Trains Wales lost the franchise and it went to TFW which is puppetmastered by the Welsh Govt, it has gone awful (to the extent I will refuse to travel on them if I have a choice). That is what happens when you have national or local government playing puppetmaster. As I've given with my example of Merseyrail as well, that further backs it up. Giving local governments any control over rail services is a mistake and in time, you will see what a mess will be made for those who live on the outskirts of the operations or just generally have to deal with the brainless twits which they call customer service.
While TOCs right now are under management agreements and all that stuff, private companies know resource utilisation matters and tend not to do as much for publicities sake focussing more on the passengers journey rather than metro mayors or councillors political career.

Possibly that's because the government likes starving local authorities, including PTEs, of funding? And the solution to that is tax raises and/or an acceptance that once money is raised through the tax system, it does not "belong" to taxpayers anymore and needs to be spent in whatever way is most beneficial to the public, not to individual people.

Oh really, you don't believe that do you? If money was that tight, why are PTEs running around empty buses all day every day? Why are PTEs paying to enforce stupid rules in bus stations which are only in place for bureaucracies sake? Why are PTEs so focussed on making improvements which solely benefit someones political career rather than focussing on the passengers? Check out the bus side of this forum and you will see plenty of wasteful spending by PTEs. Money is not tight, it is just mismanaged and wasted. You're living in cuckoo land if you really believe PTEs are being starved of funding.

 

[Anonymous10]

PTEs look good on the outside but inside, they are just as bad as the DFT.

For example, Arriva Trains Wales lost the franchise and it went to TFW which is puppetmastered by the Welsh Govt, it has gone awful (to the extent I will refuse to travel on them if I have a choice). That is what happens when you have national or local government playing puppetmaster. As I've given with my example of Merseyrail as well, that further backs it up. Giving local governments any control over rail services is a mistake and in time, you will see what a mess will be made for those who live on the outskirts of the operations or just generally have to deal with the brainless twits which they call customer service.
While TOCs right now are under management agreements and all that stuff, private companies know resource utilisation matters and tend not to do as much for publicities sake focussing more on the passengers journey rather than metro mayors or councillors political career.

I have hardly had a negative experience of tfw their rolling stock issues were partly caused by arriva not passing on enough spares and by then not conducting the prm mods under their franchise giving tfw 1 year to prm 30 150s do the 153s withdraw Pacers get in 170. Which in my opinion they aren't doing to badly at the 769s they can't be blamed for neither. Personally they r one of the better ones struggling yes but they try I'd keep them as is I wouldn't split or merge them is just increase their fleet that's their issue and years of under funding in wales

 

[markymark2000]

I have hardly had a negative experience of tfw their rolling stock issues were partly caused by arriva not passing on enough spares and by then not conducting the prm mods under their franchise giving tfw 1 year to prm 30 150s do the 153s withdraw Pacers get in 170. Which in my opinion they aren't doing to badly at the 769s they can't be blamed for neither. Personally they r one of the better ones struggling yes but they try I'd keep them as is I wouldn't split or merge them is just increase their fleet that's their issue and years of under funding in wales

My issues are based on their Chester - Manchester service which has been abysmal since TFW took over.

 

[Gareth]

West Coast TOC - Avanti, LNW, North West half of Northern, TPE North West, XC North West services and Manchester-Holyhead from TfW.

East Coast TOC - LNER, TPE North, XC North East and Great Northern (possibly with the Northern City line going to TfL).

Midland TOC - EMR, TPE South and XC regional.

Caledonian Sleeper > DfT TOC

Thameslink and Southern separated.

Everything else as is.

NB - my preference is actually for vertical integration with TPE, XC, EMR Notts-Liv and cross-border TfW services being joint ventures between the companies concerned. The above is based on the current system.

 

[Anonymous10]

My issues are based on their Chester - Manchester service which has been abysmal since TFW took over.

Unfortunately as I live down south I don't know what the issue is would u mind explaining

 

[JonathanH]

West Coast TOC - Avanti, LNW, North West half of Northern, TPE North West, XC North West services and Manchester-Holyhead from TfW.

East Coast TOC - LNER, TPE North, XC North East and Great Northern (possibly with the Northern City line going to TfL).

Midland TOC - EMR, TPE South and XC regional.

Caledonian Sleeper > DfT TOC

Thameslink and Southern separated.

Everything else as is.

NB - my preference is actually for vertical integration with TPE, XC, EMR Notts-Liv and cross-border TfW services being joint ventures between the companies concerned. The above is based on the current system.

So, combine all the franchises in the north into one operation and have two franchises running between London and Brighton. How is that consistent? Does the 'GN' bit of Thameslink go into East Coast or are there going to be two operators of commuter services between London Kings Cross and Peterborough / Cambridge.

 

[markymark2000]

Unfortunately as I live down south I don't know what the issue is would u mind explaining

Timekeeping and overcrowding. Fares shot up in January while all the fares within Wales got reduced.

 

[Gareth]

So, combine all the franchises in the north into one operation and have two franchises running between London and Brighton. How is that consistent? Does the 'GN' bit of Thameslink go into East Coast or are there going to be two operators of commuter services between London Kings Cross and Peterborough / Cambridge.

Oh, I take it you disagree?

 

[Anonymous10]

Timekeeping and overcrowding. Fares shot up in January while all the fares within Wales got reduced.

Be surprised West Wales branch fairs went up not by much but they did it was reported as all of Wales but in reality only applied to South Wales valleys (commuter routes in and around Cardiff)

 

[JonathanH]

Oh, I take it you disagree?

Not necessarily - I was more wondering why you think every train in a huge area between Euston and the North West of England needs to be run by a single operator yet you suggest splitting up a large combined operation in the South of England.

If the work at Croydon survives the massive reduction in commuter travel it may make sense to keep one operator through East Croydon for some more time.

I personally wonder how, if the eastern side of HS2 is built, it will remain sustainable to have separate operators of the classic routes given the way the West Coast Partnership is set up but that is some time in the future.

 

[Gareth]

It was more about having a franchise per London terminal, which is broadly what we've already got, bar the odd exception. It was less about keeping TOCs 100% separate; although with fewer TOCs (especially no TPE & XC) it happens less in this scenario. As Thameslink is based on its core, I put it separate, although it's quite sui generis for a mainline TOC in how runs through London rather than finishing at a terminus. It can stay with Southern if it must. I'm fairly agnostic about it tbh.

 

[Kilopylae]

How about putting Elizabeth Line and Thameslink together as one franchise (or possibly TfL mode if you're so inclined, though tbh the idea of TfL running out to Bedford and Brighton seems ludicrous to me).

On the other hand, assuming Crossrail stays as is, I would give the Reading to Waterloo via Ascot/Virginia Water line to TfL. In general I quite like the idea of TfL running inners and commuter lines but I don't feel qualified to comment on much of that!