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Which TOCs would you combine or split to make them better?

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JonathanH

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I don’t understand why FTPE run services from Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh as both services belong with CrossCountry

No they don't (although the fact that they are with TPE is not as clear as it was when they also ran Manchester Airport to Blackpool / Barrow / Windermere).

If anything they could be run by the West Coast operator, not Cross Country. However, it really doesn't matter and I don't get why people get so bothered by TPE running these services.
 
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Meerkat

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Why, GWR is a prime example of what good can happen when local & express services are merged together, in most cases the revenue on the Intercity services has allow GWR to invest in local services or support them during lower patron periods.
Unless you mean ‘a PR cover up for basket case services’ then it isn’t really true.
If they were separate then intercity would pay more to the DfT and the DfT would pay more for local services. You could then know more precisely what the DfT are buying and what it costs, and have more focused management - companies that are good at intercity doing that and companies that are good at management contracts doing the subsidised stuff.
 

MarkyT

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No they don't (although the fact that they are with TPE is not as clear as it was when they also ran Manchester Airport to Blackpool / Barrow / Windermere).

If anything they could be run by the West Coast operator, not Cross Country. However, it really doesn't matter and I don't get why people get so bothered by TPE running these services.
At the end of VXC, I think the current franchise map in the area was carved up largely in accordance with which other incumbent TOCs had, or were acquiring appropriate rolling stock, etc, and presumably the cheapest deal they could negotiate with them to vary their franchises. That's changed now with new fleets available and could evolve further of course. TPE is currently under the same owning group as part of WC, which was the CMA's concern last year.
 

MarkyT

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Unless you mean ‘a PR cover up for basket case services’ then it isn’t really true.
If they were separate then intercity would pay more to the DfT and the DfT would pay more for local services. You could then know more precisely what the DfT are buying and what it costs, and have more focused management - companies that are good at intercity doing that and companies that are good at management contracts doing the subsidised stuff.
I'd say once you get into the deepest peninsular the savings from shared overheads make a difference though. The long distance trains also form the backbone of the regional service in the west country. That's why my approach would be more nuanced: Keep local and long distance managed together in the far west, but consider splitting in Thames Valley where both sets of operations are big enough to support their own overheads.
 
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Energy

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Southern(TSGN) merging with South Western Railway & South Eastern to become Southern Railway, GWR's Tarka line would merge into SR allowing potential for direct Barnstaple to Waterloo trains.
This would be a massive franchise, in some ways too massive.
 

markymark2000

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Really? So the Merseyside council would effectively be in control of commuter services on the western side of Manchester?
Only some. This would have to be based on only the CLC stoppers being taken over and the electrics only running to MCV and not through to Crewe.
 

devonexpress

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Unless you mean ‘a PR cover up for basket case services’ then it isn’t really true.
If they were separate then intercity would pay more to the DfT and the DfT would pay more for local services. You could then know more precisely what the DfT are buying and what it costs, and have more focused management - companies that are good at intercity doing that and companies that are good at management contracts doing the subsidised stuff.
So why when a franchise consultation was last done did 76% of responses say they did not want the franchise split up?
 

devonexpress

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This would be a massive franchise, in some ways too massive.
GWR is massive, it still does a good job, Having all resources grouped together I think improves things, but that's my view, others on here won't agree.
 

swt_passenger

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Personally I have quite a few changes

  • Southern(TSGN) merging with South Western Railway & South Eastern to become Southern Railway, GWR's Tarka line would merge into SR allowing potential for direct Barnstaple to Waterloo trains...
Throughout BR’s time in control, the SR was run as 3 operationally separate divisions. Southwestern, Central and Southeastern. I suspect because as one organisation it was thought relatively unmanageable...
 

MarkyT

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All the regions were split into multiple divisions, I believe.
Indeed, and those were traditionally subdivided into 'Areas'. Boundaries shifted, areas combined, split, recombined, were renamed etc over the years, as is the nature of large organisations. The Southern 'Divisions' were among the most long-lived with their historical boundaries largely unchanged though, although even they were eventually abolished, only to be replaced by 'Areas' with the same boundaries I think. From a Railtrack/Network Rail perspective, the old 'Divisions' were the basis of the new 'Route' boundaries. In some cases, there were multiple 'Routes' within a 'Zone', sometimes a 'Zone' would coincide with a single 'Route' and then there were 'Territories' that were bigger than 'Zones 'for certain engineering functions, after a short return to 'Regions', which have once again reappeared recently, disproving my hypothesis that hierachical class names for geographical areas could never be reused! That's a shame as there plenty of promising synonyms still available that have yet to be used :)
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/area
Synonyms for area:
city
county
field
locality
neighborhood
section
sector
square
state
territory
township
zone
belt
block
division
domain
dominion
enclosure
kingdom
parcel
patch
plot
precinct
principality
quarter
sphere
stretch
tract
turf
vicinity
ward
neck of the woods
 
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tbtc

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I try to be pragmatic about all the nationalisation/privatisation stuff - I'll believe in whatever works best - in the context of the billions of pounds of money sloshing around the industry each year, I'm not worried about the fact that TOCs need new uniforms for their staff every seven years or the fact that there are multiple teams of people responding to tweets (even under a centrally controlled nationalised system, you'd presumably want local teams responding to local problems/ incidents).

I guess the question for me then is what size is most efficient for a TOC? And do you measure that by revenue/ number of carriages/ number of staff?

e.g. you can have a twelve coach EMU with one member of staff on board or a single carriage 153 that requires two members of staff, so I don't know whether it'd be better to try and split the (five? ten? twenty? thirty?) TOCs based on revenue/ carriages/ staff?

I don't have a "feel" for how many TOCs there ought to be but in the interests of keeping things competitive enough to encourage firms to bid (i.e. not so huge that only two or three companies would be able to take them on, but not so insignificantly small that it's not worth going through all of the tender process) and to avoid the issues of feast/famine then maybe enough TOCs so that there's a new TOC every four to six months and each franchise lasts seven to ten years - which would mean in the region of twenty franchises? That way each TOC should be a reasonable size and you'd not have a period where no franchises were let for long periods? But I've no black/white opinion over one number being particularly better than another - I only suggestion twenty-ish to keep things fluid and balanced - anything shorter than seven years means little time for improvements and anything longer than ten years risks stagnation and no incentive to keep up the momentum of the first few years. You could get lucky with a Chiltern but also end up lumbered with a badly written franchise like the first Wales & Borders one, so a seven-to-ten years period feels about right.

If you're looking at changing some existing TOCs without any huge changes to timetables/ ordering new trains etc then I certainly agree with splitting up TPE - it's got three independent "arms", which have very little to do with each other - it'd be easy to give the WCML services to Avanti, give the Huddersfield services to Cross Country/LNER and give the oft-forgotten Hope Valley service to EMR/ Northern.

If you don't give the Huddersfield services to LNER then you could certainly give the Northern services around Newcastle/ Middlesbrough to LNER (operationally separate

In a united Britain, Wales & Borders ought to be split along the old "Wales & West'/ "Central Trains" "FNW" lines, but I appreciate that it'd be far too politically sensitive to do anything about it

Beyond that, you're talking about splitting services up to suit boundaries. e.g. any "east"/"west" split of Northern would mean questions about which side got what (go back to the RRNE/RRNW days and chop routes like Leeds - Chester?). I could see merit in splitting XC with Avanti getting the full "Manchester - Reading" corridor and the "Derby - Cheltenham" corridor to EMR, but that'd be major surgery!

But any railway is going to be split into several divisions - look at how our "National" Health Service has the same back office functions provided in many many places - it'd be impossible to run a nationalised railway without significant devolution/ "silos" - anyone is welcome to kid themselves that a twenty first century "BR" would be one big happy family but look at any major public/private bureaucracy to see how split it would all be. Also, if you're going to have compensation an "delay repay" etc then you're going to have to accept paying lots of people to calculate the losses and attribute them to a business unit - it's going to be messy whichever way you want to split things up.

(and also, often it's the people who claim that the only reason BR closed one route in the 1960s instead of a parallel one was because of some long standing enmity dating back to the "big four" days twenty years earlier, who are the ones who like to pretend that BR wouldn't have had the petty divisions and squabbles that the current privatised model has... let's not bother, eh?)
 

Anonymous10

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I personally would only give transport for Wales a few long haul trips to run such as Cardiff Nottingham ect but along slightly different routes but it wouldn't happen not least due to rolling stock
 

JonathanH

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I personally would only give transport for Wales a few long haul trips to run such as Cardiff Nottingham ect but along slightly different routes but it wouldn't happen not least due to rolling stock

I really don't see that working - Nottingham is far too far from Cardiff for the service to be run from the western end of the route - you would need some sort of traincrew depot in Nottingham. (I appreciate there isn't an XC one in Nottingham and the first services are run by Leicester crew but it doesn't change the point.) It would be quite strange to have employees of Transport for Wales who live in the East Midlands.
 

Anonymous10

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I really don't see that working - Nottingham is far too far from Cardiff for the service to be run from the western end of the route - you would need some sort of traincrew depot in Nottingham. (I appreciate there isn't an XC one in Nottingham and the first services are run by Leicester crew but it doesn't change the point.) It would be quite strange to have employees of Transport for Wales who live in the East Midlands.
I said it's not feasible but could run via Crewe or the like for train Crewe maybe I don't know but I'm just wishing tfw had a few long haul hops to England
 

tetudo boy

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You would be able to link the 'City lines' into a Merseytravel concession but not the whole Northern franchise.
No no no, not the whole franchise! I mean the whole of the Merseyrail franchise into Northern! Northern operating Merseyrail services! (I think I messed up on my words...)
Actually, because you said you could link the city lines, I may as well consider that...
 
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SlimJim1694

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I'd bin all the London suburban routes off into TFL. Same with all the other big city suburban local routes, give them to the local authority to run. The rest of it I'd just clump into bigger regional groupings along the lines of the old setup with Wales and Scotland running their own stuff. I'd do something about Thameslink too, I'm not sure what yet, but I'd certainly take them down a peg or two. I'd boot them off the north kent and Catford loop lines and send them into Moorgate like they used to do (but from Finsbury Park, not Farringdon). Maybe seal up the core just north of City Thameslink and run Networkers back into Smithfield again.
 

VT 390

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I'd bin all the London suburban routes off into TFL. Same with all the other big city suburban local routes, give them to the local authority to run. The rest of it I'd just clump into bigger regional groupings along the lines of the old setup with Wales and Scotland running their own stuff. I'd do something about Thameslink too, I'm not sure what yet, but I'd certainly take them down a peg or two. I'd boot them off the north kent and Catford loop lines and send them into Moorgate like they used to do (but from Finsbury Park, not Farringdon). Maybe seal up the core just north of City Thameslink and run Networkers back into Smithfield again.
I really don't think closing the Thameslink Core would help franchises (or be of any help at all) as fewer services would be able to run as you would have to terminate them in central London, also the Moorgate if more services were redirected to Moorgate it would mean a huge reduction in capacity as the 8/12 carriage Thameslink trains would be to long. The only thing I would change about Thameslink would be to separate it in to a franchise away from Southern, possibly including Great Northern longer distance serivces.
 

MarkyT

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I really don't think closing the Thameslink Core would help franchises (or be of any help at all) as fewer services would be able to run as you would have to terminate them in central London, also the Moorgate if more services were redirected to Moorgate it would mean a huge reduction in capacity as the 8/12 carriage Thameslink trains would be to long. The only thing I would change about Thameslink would be to separate it in to a franchise away from Southern, possibly including Great Northern longer distance serivces.
Agreed GN inners should be TfL. MML inners/outers and GN outers to remain broadly as today running through the core, but separated from Southern. Perhaps there could be some simplification, or other changes to routes south of London though. TL MML inners could be split off to TfL as well and would continue to run through the core together with the TL outers.
 

VT 390

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TL MML inners could be split off to TfL as well and would continue to run through the core together with the TL outers.
I would not be against this as the Sutton to St Albans services are mostly within London and so are the Thameslink Orpington services so it would make sense for TfL to operate them however it could make things more complicated with rolling stock as 700's would most likely still be used for anything through the core and splitting these between 2 operators may not be the best idea unless all the 8 carriages were with one and the 12 carriages with the other but this may not work as some longer distance services are booked as 8 carriages.
 

Meerkat

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I would not be against this as the Sutton to St Albans services are mostly within London and so are the Thameslink Orpington services so it would make sense for TfL to operate them however it could make things more complicated with rolling stock as 700's would most likely still be used for anything through the core and splitting these between 2 operators may not be the best idea unless all the 8 carriages were with one and the 12 carriages with the other but this may not work as some longer distance services are booked as 8 carriages.
Tell the locals to shut up and terminate the Wimbledon loop at Blackfriars as planned
 

VT 390

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Tell the locals to shut up and terminate the Wimbledon loop at Blackfriars as planned
I agree that Thameslink Sutton loop services should all terminate at Blackfriars, then they could go to Southern or TfL Although I don't know what would replace them through the core on the south side.
 

MarkyT

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Tell the locals to shut up and terminate the Wimbledon loop at Blackfriars as planned
I would cut the loop completely, terminating the TfL TL inners at Wimbledon and Cheam (new turnback). I'd handover Wimbledon - Sutton to Crossrail 2 as an additional or substitute branch, with the junction at Sutton removed and a new terminus constructed at Sutton A much faster and more frequent (at least 6 tph) almost tube quality service to central London that could be more attractive than the alternative chosen by many today of getting the bus to Morden. The remaining TL branches would be far more resilient with the new conventional termini and appropriate layovers.
 

MarkyT

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I agree that Thameslink Sutton loop services should all terminate at Blackfriars, then they could go to Southern or TfL Although I don't know what would replace them through the core on the south side.
You'd need some additional stopping services in the south to combine with the MML stoppers.
 

TheWalrus

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Here are my ideas and suggestions on a nationwide remapping of the rail framchises, I drafted while I’ve had more time off work recently. I welcome suggestions to improve these ideas, but they are only ideas! Also my knowledge is slightly limited away from the SW and Wales areas, and very poor in the South East so I apologise if my ideas in these areas are not as good as they could be!

Anyway hope you enjoy reading this document!
 

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Skimble19

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TSGN is too big and unwieldy. Southern itself should be split between suburban and longer distance operations as well.
I see this comment every now and again and think the complete opposite, that the current setup is fine but if there did have to be a change made Southeastern could be merged into GTR (or successor). What are your actual reasons for wanting such separation, and why is it too big and unweidly?
 

E100

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I'd merge Caledonian Sleeper with Scotrail but maintain the separate branding somewhat.
 
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