Which TOCs would you combine or split to make them better?

[Christmas]

Personally I would absorb TransPennine into CrossCountry, partly because the name TransPennine is no longer reflective of their operating area. They also overlap on key routes.
This is just a bit of fun so make your TOC as big or small as you like.

 

[StephenHunter]

TSGN is too big and unwieldy. Southern itself should be split between suburban and longer distance operations as well.

 

[VT 390]

I would definitely want to see the Northern franchise split in to 2 or 3 smaller franchises with one for the services in Manchester and the West and another for Leeds and around the east, the possible 3rd would be the North east services around Newcastle as it is quite cut off from the rest of the network but that may make it to small.
Also Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern should be split but possibly keeping the Thameslink and Great Northern together but with the Moorgate services given to Transport for London.

 

[Meerkat]

Have more, smaller, TOCs to increase the number of bidders by spreading the risk.
Northern split between the PTE areas, plus a Lancashire/Cumbria one based around Preston.
Split the regional/local services out from the Inter City services so that local services can be devolved and Intercity ones become more commercial.
Maybe even split the PTE area delivery (not branding) into smaller groups like the Germans do.

 

[VT 390]

Another franchise which may be good to split would be the GWR franchise with the Intercity routes out of London (with the electric Thames valley services) being one with all the regional services being another.

 

[MarkyT]

Another franchise which may be good to split would be the GWR franchise with the Intercity routes out of London (with the electric Thames valley services) being one with all the regional services being another.

I wouldn't do that in the west country, as it would just load many overheads on the local operator and prevent sharing of crew etc, and the long distance services provide the backbone of regional services once past Taunton anyway. Remaining Thames Valley locals and branches could split off plausibly in the London area though.

 

[43096]

I wouldn't do that in the west country, as it would just load many overheads on the local operator and prevent sharing of crew etc, and the long distance services provide the backbone of regional services once past Taunton anyway. Remaining Thames Valley locals and branches could split off plausibly in the London area though.

You could merge the Thames Valley stuff in with Chiltern - oh look we're back with NSE's T&C sub-sector!

 

[Bevan Price]

I would combine them all into a single national organisation, and then appoint small, high quality regional management teams to look after local costs & problems.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Cross-country and transpennine with Liverpool.to Norwich absorbed and more destinations in southern England to beef up the route map to be a truly cross country network once again

Avanti , LNWR, West Midlands, and Western half of Northern

LNER, Great Northern and East half of Northern

Thameslink on it's own

Southern on it's own

Everything else as is.

 

[Iskra]

I’d merge TP and XC, mainly so XC could receive a similar rolling stock & capacity upgrade to what TP has.

However, I would nationalise (sorry, I mean centralise) all controls and back of house functions to cut down running costs by reducing unnecessary duplication. We don’t need 24 different Twitter, control. recruitment, training, customer service, delay attribution etc teams. These could all be run by Network Rail for example and TOC’s just deal with service provision, marketing and strategy.

 

[Meerkat]

I’d merge TP and XC, mainly so XC could receive a similar rolling stock & capacity upgrade to what TP has.

However, I would nationalise (sorry, I mean centralise) all controls and back of house functions to cut down running costs by reducing unnecessary duplication. We don’t need 24 different Twitter, control. recruitment, training, customer service, delay attribution etc teams. These could all be run by Network Rail for example and TOC’s just deal with service provision, marketing and strategy.

Did all of BR get the same levels of upgrade then?
All the things you list as not being done by TOCs are part of service provision or marketing....which you want TOCs to do!!

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree that TransPennine should be merged with CrossCountry

 

[Iskra]

Did all of BR get the same levels of upgrade then?
All the things you list as not being done by TOCs are part of service provision or marketing....which you want TOCs to do!!

The phrase 'back of house', was quite important. To clarify, I mean basically have one shared service centre for TOC's for most back of house services, it would be more efficient because less people would be able to achieve the same output (or more), there would be reduced management, administration and building costs etc and you wouldn't have to change uniform every time a franchise change. They would just still provide the same service but to a new TOC brand. The work output from all the previously mentioned roles is the same, regardless of the TOC, so it doesn't need to be done by x separate teams. This could make things easier for the customer too. The leadership team and strategic roles would stay with each individual TOC brand, allowing them to set their own TOC specific direction, regarding train service strategy, rolling stock strategy etc, depending what they and the DFT think is important. TOC's would be able to focus on providing a quality rail service, rather than operating back of house functions. Marketing, to me is not a big thing on the railway but some TOC's and business people really believe in it, for me it could go one way of the other, I really don't care.

 

[Meerkat]

Recruitment, training, customer service - they are all part of providing a good service and building a brand.

 

[Iskra]

Recruitment, training, customer service - they are all part of providing a good service and building a brand.

Most of that is still generic across all brands. But why do you need a good brand when no competition exists for most consumers? I might think GWR or Caledonian sleeper have great brands, but living in Sheffield they aren’t going to gain my custom? Better to focus on an effective service to get people out of their cars... most passengers probably only care about price, timings and getting a seat. The colour of the train and witty toilet notices are probably a very minor consideration.

 

[Meerkat]

Most of that is still generic across all brands. But why do you need a good brand when no competition exists for most consumers? I might think GWR or Caledonian sleeper have great brands, but living in Sheffield they aren’t going to gain my custom? Better to focus on an effective service to get people out of their cars... most passengers probably only care about price, timings and getting a seat. The colour of the train and witty toilet notices are probably a very minor consideration.

It really isn’t generic! And the competition is coach, car, or not travelling at all.

 

[Iskra]

It really isn’t generic! And the competition is coach, car, or not travelling at all.

It clearly is. Please tell me what Northern’s delay compensation department does that couldn’t be done if it was combined with EMR’s?

If you can’t see that having 24 sets of TOC’s produces a whole host of unnecessary duplication, then I think that can only be because you are choosing not to.

 

[Meerkat]

It clearly is. Please tell me what Northern’s delay compensation department does that couldn’t be done if it was combined with EMR’s?

If you can’t see that having 24 sets of TOC’s produces a whole host of unnecessary duplication, then I think that can only be because you are choosing not to.

You have picked one department that you didn’t mention before. But even that, particularly on a long distance operator, is a brand differentiator - how you deal with complaints, and how quickly you refund them is a major customer retention and recommendation factor.
From experience removal of duplication by replacement with massive group wide bureaucracies might give immediate cash efficiencies but does not necessarily bring operating efficiency, in fact sometimes quite the opposite.
If there are really big economies of scale then the work would get outsourced anyway, but with each TOC controlling the output desired.

 

[Iskra]

You have picked one department that you didn’t mention before. But even that, particularly on a long distance operator, is a brand differentiator - how you deal with complaints, and how quickly you refund them is a major customer retention and recommendation factor.
From experience removal of duplication by replacement with massive group wide bureaucracies might give immediate cash efficiencies but does not necessarily bring operating efficiency, in fact sometimes quite the opposite.
If there are really big economies of scale then the work would get outsourced anyway, but with each TOC controlling the output desired.

It's a back of house function, there are lots that I haven't listed. There is no reason why one person can not deal with 1 task in 2 different styles to suit an individual brand. A centralised system could deal with it much faster and more consistently by standardising the process and having one database.

I disagree.

That's basically what I'm suggesting, but to NR, I think it would have a lot of benefit.

I don't think we're going to agree, so best just to leave it there.

 

[MarkyT]

You could merge the Thames Valley stuff in with Chiltern - oh look we're back with NSE's T&C sub-sector!

It does make sense, especially if they're going to expand services to OOC, and could also have benefits around the Oxford area while still ensuring a choice of fast services to London (i.e. 80x services would remain with GWR mainline).

I would combine them all into a single national organisation, and then appoint small, high quality regional management teams to look after local costs & problems.

Regardless of that, the business on the ground still has to be split up into some kind of local organisation. The shape of that could be a copy of the old BR regions, divisions, areas etc or could be based on the OfQ sectors and subsectors. More likely it will be some kind of hybrid, based on the TOC map of today but modified to a greater or lesser degree. Whatever happens post-Williams, I hope some local management flair and entrepreneurialism is retained.

 

[tetudo boy]

We could merge Merseyrail into Northern but Merseyrail is in a concession with Merseytravel so I don't know how that would work...

 

[markymark2000]

We could merge Merseyrail into Northern but Merseyrail is in a concession with Merseytravel so I don't know how that would work...

You would be able to link the 'City lines' into a Merseytravel concession but not the whole Northern franchise.

 

[JonathanH]

You would be able to link the 'City lines' into a Merseytravel concession but not the whole Northern franchise.

Really? So the Merseyside council would effectively be in control of commuter services on the western side of Manchester?

 

[js1000]

I'd personally merge TPE with Northern. Reduce the crossflows and better allocate stopping services where routes overlap.

I suspect after Coronavirus the TPE franchise will be one of the worst hit due to the dependency on Manchester Airport and the govt will have little option but to take it back in-house. Although they may retain the branding the government will simply roll Northern and TPE into one operation behind the scenes.

 

[Meerkat]

I'd personally merge TPE with Northern. Reduce the crossflows and better allocate stopping services where routes overlap.

I suspect after Coronavirus the TPE franchise will be one of the worst hit due to the dependency on Manchester Airport and the govt will have little option but to take it back in-house. Although they may retain the branding the government will simply roll Northern and TPE into one operation behind the scenes.

I absolutely don’t support that idea. Keep the Intercity services separate and devolve Northern to the PTE areas.
Transpennnine was so overcrowded it would take a fair drop in passengers before the trains weren’t full!

 

[Whistler40145]

I’d eliminate FTPE franchise and Northern too, have a massive shake up of the local and Express services.

Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh would transfer back to CrossCountry using the same stock, several Manchester Airport services could either be extended through to Birmingham New Street direct from Manchester Piccadilly or via Manchester Airport

Liverpool could regain a direct service to either Bristol/Exeter or Plymouth

Class 800 series units could work through on more services

 

[devonexpress]

TSGN is too big and unwieldy. Southern itself should be split between suburban and longer distance operations as well.

Personally I have quite a few changes

• Southern(TSGN) merging with South Western Railway & South Eastern to become Southern Railway, GWR's Tarka line would merge into SR allowing potential for direct Barnstaple to Waterloo trains.

• Northern split in two services around ECML merging into LNER, Services around WCML merging with Avanti West Coast, ditch the silly name and call it LMS. Merge LNWR into the new TOC as well.

• Transpennine split, with some services going to XC and the rest into LMS or LNER whichever is more appropriate.

• Transport for Wales split into two, North Wales for LMS, South Wales going to GWR.
• West Midlands Railway & Chiltern Mainline services merge with GWR, however the remaining Chiltern services remain.
• Merge Thameslink into the CrossRail network as Crossrail 2.

All other TOC's remain unchanged.

 

[devonexpress]

I absolutely don’t support that idea. Keep the Intercity services separate and devolve Northern to the PTE areas.
Transpennnine was so overcrowded it would take a fair drop in passengers before the trains weren’t full!

Why, GWR is a prime example of what good can happen when local & express services are merged together, in most cases the revenue on the Intercity services has allow GWR to invest in local services or support them during lower patron periods.

 

[JonathanH]

Transport for Wales split into two, North Wales for LMS, South Wales going to GWR.

You do understand why there is a 'Transport for Wales'?

 

[Whistler40145]

I don’t understand why FTPE run services from Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central/Edinburgh as both services belong with CrossCountry