Which stations/services have seen the seen the worst decline since privatisation?

[Ken H]

Just out of genuine interest, what services did Norton Bridge used to have over the years? I'm not originally from Staffordshire but really interested in the closed stations.

1978 the Stafford - Manchester stoppers stopped there roughly 2 hourly. Stopped at the other stations between Stone and Stoke too. Nothing on Sundays. Some started back at New Street.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just out of genuine interest, what services did Norton Bridge used to have over the years? I'm not originally from Staffordshire but really interested in the closed stations.

Norton Bridge is a relic of the old Grand Junction Railway which went on to become the LMS and then the West Coast Mainline. It’s glory days would have been before the Second World War (so more than a hundred years of service) but increased car ownership from the 1950s onwards electrification of the West Coast in the 1960s saw it lose platforms and suffer a huge decline in services. It had the most sparse parliamentary service of Stafford to Stoke shuttles for years before they finally killed it, but the rot was in years and years before privatisation.

 

[Falcon1200]

It used to be quicker to go London Glasgow via Edinburgh and the ECML after all

I don't recall that ever being the case, even with HSTs on the ECML.

 

[30907]

I don't recall that ever being the case, even with HSTs on the ECML.

At certain times of day, possibly?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2022 ==

All intercity lines

Yes, it's a shame we lost the 15min interval London-Manchester and 20min London-Leeds services
PS if you are talking Standard class seat comfort or perhaps restaurant cars I might agree....

 

[DanNCL]

It used to be quicker to go London Glasgow via Edinburgh and the ECML after all

I don't recall that ever being the case, even with HSTs on the ECML.

I don't think the ECML was ever quicker for London to Glasgow, but journey times were competetive via the ECML on 91+Mark 4 sets with those offered by the pre-upgrade WCML

 

[Ken H]

I don't recall that ever being the case, even with HSTs on the ECML.

1978

1610 Glasgow cent - Euston was 5h24 via WCML. Stops- Carlisle, Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Crewe, Watford Jct(Set down)
1610 Edinburgh - KX was 5 Hrs 12 via ECML. Stops Newcastle, Darlington, Peterborough, Stevenage. Connection from Queen St dep 1500. probably still Deltic + 8 I think.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Wennington?

 

[Ken H]

Wennington?

Its got a better service that before. 8 a day each way. when was it better?

 

[MontyP]

I don't think the ECML was ever quicker for London to Glasgow, but journey times were competetive via the ECML on 91+Mark 4 sets with those offered by the pre-upgrade WCML

The WCML service was only every 2 hours so it was quite often quicker to catch the hourly Edinburgh fast and connect than to wait for the next Glasgow direct

 

[Falcon1200]

The WCML service was only every 2 hours so it was quite often quicker to catch the hourly Edinburgh fast and connect than to wait for the next Glasgow direct

Would agree with that, Edinburgh got an hourly London service a long time before Glasgow did!

 

[AM9]

Even ilford used to have Southend Victoria and Colchester trains stopping there, Romford was both Southend and Clacton trains

It depends on how selective one wants to be over location, destination and time. I remember when Ilford had direct trains to Southend and Chelmsford, (the GEML was only electrified as far as Chelmsford then). But there were far fewer trains to Shenfield, mostly involving changes at Romford or Gidea Park. And of course there weren't 10 trains per hour through the centre of London as there will be in a few weeks.
Similarly, a few of the services from St Albans northwards went to places well north of Bedford, but travelling to places as near as East Croydon or Sutton involved three or more trains before 1989.

 

[Failed Unit]

It does depend on how you look at things.

Market Rasen - Frequency worse.

Destination by direct trains worse (but this was down to the way central trains was split up)

Connections worse. 1h57 minute wait at Lincoln for a London service southbound and 90 minutes northbound.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Would agree with that, Edinburgh got an hourly London service a long time before Glasgow did!

Although it wasn't truly hourly until DOR redrafted the timetable, so it wasn't actually very much different.

I also agree with @3141 in that BR would have closed a lot of lines (or withdrawn so many services that a line continued with just the bare minimum), based on the way that it closed lines/ stations during every decade of its existence

I'm not sure I agree with that, the tide had very much turned by the end of the 80s and start of the 90s. Sectorisation and increased local authority spending had reversed most of the decline of the 70s and 80s, look at the changes in WYPTE and NSE.

There's certainly an argument that privatisation gave the Tories the ideological headroom to invest more in the railways, but the investment had already started with the 158/159 and the Networkers.

 

[Watershed]

Wennington?

Could hardly have picked a worse example!

Up until very recently it only had 5 trains per day, and 2 on winter Sundays. Generally all Pacers.

It now has 8 trains per day and 5 on Sundays year round. Generally all 158s.

Whilst the service is still limited and not at all clockface, it's overall a huge improvement.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Could hardly have picked a worse example!

Up until very recently it only had 5 trains per day, and 2 on winter Sundays. Generally all Pacers.

It now has 8 trains per day and 5 on Sundays year round. Generally all 158s.

Whilst the service is still limited and not at all clockface, it's overall a huge improvement.

My bad. I remember using the line a bit when I was a child back in the early 90's pre-privatisation. I hadn't realised they had upped the service to 8 a day. I thought they were still on the 'minimum service provision'

 

[DannyMich2018]

Hinckley used to have two trains an hour before about 2003 with the Cov to Nott/Lincoln/Grimsby service calling as well as the hourly Birmingham Leicester stopping service. Weren't evenly spaced though, Coventry service only few mins after the Birmingham service.

 

[Failed Unit]

Hinckley used to have two trains an hour before about 2003 with the Cov to Nott/Lincoln/Grimsby service calling as well as the hourly Birmingham Leicester stopping service. Weren't evenly spaced though, Coventry service only few mins after the Birmingham service.

You have hit a good point about through services. This was lost because of the break up of Central Trains and the fact that they ended up with different operators. Some services were killed before privatisation such as Cleethorpes-London and Cleethorpes- Sheffield via Brigg to make the franchise mode attractive.

But places like Loughborough suffered by losing direct trains to the West Midlands.

Other examples that didn’t get many through passengers with the CT split were Nottingham- Hereford and Lincoln - Shrewsbury (and Beyond) via Nuneaton. I doubt many did Lincoln - Shrewsbury. But Wolverhampton- Loughborough maybe did have some.

BR operated a few joint journeys across regions which cost nothing but were appreciated by passengers. Newcastle to Glasgow / Stanrear somehow survived into privatisation. Why I have no idea when Lincoln - Cardiff didn’t (which did have a reasonable flow of Lincoln - Derby & Birmingham passengers)

 

[Speed43125]

Dunblane has lost some of its services to Aberdeen and Inverness, sure. But I’d suggest that the longer EMUs that replaced shorter DMUs on the vast majority of Edinburgh/ Glasgow trains is more important to your average Dunblane passenger

I think the fact that there was a period of sped up electric service alongside stopping DMU and later HST service to Aberdeen/Inverness is what's being highlighted here. The upping of Alloa frequencies from Queen Street has also resulted in the withdrawn of virtually all DBL-QST stoppers. Edinburgh stoppers used to run semifast after Larbert as well but since the recast are back down to (I think?) pre-EGIP journey times to Waverly with two added stops. Swings and roundabouts I suppose given almost all the cutbacks have been refocusing properties elsewhere.

 

[Taunton]

I don't think the ECML was ever quicker for London to Glasgow

Possibly was around 1970-73, when the WCML was under electrification. The 10.00 Deltic-hauled Scotsman got into Waverley at 15.50 I recall, quick step across to the 16.00 Glasgow nonstop, into Queen Street at 16.43 (all times from 50 years ago off the top of my head - how sad).

Meanwhile the WCML was diesel north of Crewe, was slowed for wiring work to Carlisle, and then the Beattock line was closed in the daytime for several years for electrification, and all day trains were run via the G&SW through Dumfries. I seem to remember WCML day times to Glasgow were around 6h45. There were probably just a few minutes in it, but I think the ECML could beat them.

 

[Carlisle]

BR operated a few joint journeys across regions which cost nothing but were appreciated by passengers. Newcastle to Glasgow / Stanrear somehow survived into privatisation. Why I have no idea when Lincoln - Cardiff didn’t

They were a partial replacement for discontinuing London -Stranraer services

 

[MisterSheeps]

the fact that the biggest “negative” for the privatisation era is a handful of stations near Stoke (which were effectively sacrificed for The Greater Good

Isn't one of "the railway's" problems is that what exists is a hotchpotch of disparate things whose utility is now randomly distributed, leaving places which should be served unserved? The ending of stopping passenger services on main lines obviously benefitted the city centres, but cost the intermediate connurbations & regions. Why, for example, does the Conwy Valley have a service when reasonable sized places like Menai Bridge don't (to say nothing of Caernarfon)? Or Shap doesn't when Braystones does? A partial reversal to serve genuinely useful intermediate stops, surely possible with modern unit acceleration, would reverse some of the more iniquitous withdrawals, but there has been little attempt reopening on main lines ... Bawtry? Tuxford? ECML north of Alnwick?

 

[Falcon1200]

Edinburgh stoppers used to run semifast after Larbert as well but since the recast are back down to (I think?) pre-EGIP journey times to Waverly with two added stops. Swings and roundabouts I suppose given almost all the cutbacks have been refocusing properties elsewhere.

Indeed; One of my friend's wives commutes between Linlithgow and Stirling, so the withdrawal of the Linlithgow stop on the Edinburgh/Dunblanes caused her lengthened journey times and inconvenience. Whereas if she had been travelling to say Cumbernauld instead of Stirling, the previous service pattern would have been ideal. Always winners and losers....

 

[najaB]

Dunblane has lost its stoppers to and from Inverness and Aberdeen since the Scottish Government took over direct control of Scotrail services earlier this year.

And gained frequent EMU service to Stirling. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[tbtc]

I think the fact that there was a period of sped up electric service alongside stopping DMU and later HST service to Aberdeen/Inverness is what's being highlighted here. The upping of Alloa frequencies from Queen Street has also resulted in the withdrawn of virtually all DBL-QST stoppers. Edinburgh stoppers used to run semifast after Larbert as well but since the recast are back down to (I think?) pre-EGIP journey times to Waverly with two added stops. Swings and roundabouts I suppose given almost all the cutbacks have been refocusing properties elsewhere.

I just remember that, when the ScotRail service patterns were announced (post EGIP) there was a lot of complaining from the Dunblane/ Stirling people on here about how hard done by they were going to be by the loss of the long established links to Polmont/ Linlithgow and how the time saving (by these services being picked up by Cumbernauld trains, which would be freeing up a lot of Falkirk-Edinburgh demand from the Dunblane services) was “trivial” (and they’d only catch up the service in front anyway so there’s be no real time savings), and the fact that a four coach 100mph EMU was replacing a shorter/ slower Sprinter was irrelevant because what about that one train a day that sometimes had a single 158 + single 170…

.., now that Scotrail have changed back to the old service pattern (albeit with the faster/ longer EMUs, plus the addition of the fast Inverness trains being diverted via Stirling, as part of the downgrading of Fife’s services!) there are complaints from the Dunblane/ Stirling passengers about how hard done by they are!

Isn't one of "the railway's" problems is that what exists is a hotchpotch of disparate things whose utility is now randomly distributed, leaving places which should be served unserved? The ending of stopping passenger services on main lines obviously benefitted the city centres, but cost the intermediate connurbations & regions. Why, for example, does the Conwy Valley have a service when reasonable sized places like Menai Bridge don't (to say nothing of Caernarfon)? Or Shap doesn't when Braystones does? A partial reversal to serve genuinely useful intermediate stops, surely possible with modern unit acceleration, would reverse some of the more iniquitous withdrawals, but there has been little attempt reopening on main lines ... Bawtry? Tuxford? ECML north of Alnwick?

Yes, but how do you stop that?

There are always going to be some smallish settlements that happen to be on a relatively direct line between larger places…

…and some marginally larger settlements that aren’t really in the way to anywhere, and therefore don’t justify a railway in their own right…

…just like some insignificant places are near motorway junction whilst some medium sized settlements are a long way from the motorway network

I don’t think that there’s any way to run a rational railway that manages to tick the boxes that you want ticked (and how would you serve places like Shap anyway, stop some Scottish services there, or invent a use for redundant EMUs by inventing a Preston - Carlisle stopper?)

But then if you created such a service to ensure that there was something to stop at Shap then there’s surely a change that TPE/Avanti will cut their existing number of stops at Oxenholme/ Penrith of these towns now had a regular service from this new train, thus leaving existing Cumbrian stations with fewer services to Glasgow/ Manchester/ Birmingham/ London? Be careful what you wish for

 

[Captain Bigwig]

ECML north of Alnwick?

Reston?

 

[Taunton]

plus the addition of the fast Inverness trains being diverted via Stirling, as part of the downgrading of Fife’s services!)

Fiddling about with the routing of Edinburgh-Perth trains has been going on for longer than privatisation time. In BR days in the 1960s the direct straight line through Glenfarg closed, then it seemed every few years it was all via Stirling, then some/all/none again via Newburgh, then back to via Stirling, rinse and repeat.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Or Shap doesn't when Braystones does?

Neither really justify a rail service - a regular bus service would do just fine. It's just one happens to be on a mainline short of paths and the other on a line where there's hardly anything else!

In an ideal world freight would go round the coast anyway rather than over Shap - but that's another topic entirely!

 

[JonathanH]

Some services were killed before privatisation such as Cleethorpes-London and Cleethorpes- Sheffield via Brigg to make the franchise mode attractive.

I'm pretty sure the axing of these services had nothing at all to do with privatisation or making franchises more attractive. The early 1990s recession required BR to make savings. Cutting the through Cleethorpes to London HST allowed one East Coast set to be transferred to Great Western within the Intercity business that allowed locomotive hauled stock to be withdrawn. Likewise the axing of services via Brigg will have been because of recession-led cuts.

Why I have no idea when Lincoln - Cardiff didn’t (which did have a reasonable flow of Lincoln - Derby & Birmingham passengers)

Reliability is an obvious reason - also not tying up 'express' units on a stagger beyond Nottingham to Lincoln.

 

[Failed Unit]

Reliability is an obvious reason - also not tying up 'express' units on a stagger beyond Nottingham to Lincoln.

That was great spin to be honest. The train was still late but because the service was split in 2 you improved the PPM.

However anyone wanting to travel from Birmingham- Lincoln had a 60 minute increase in journey time as a result.

 

[thenorthern]

The Fishguard branch used to have overnight trains which it doesn't anymore.

Since Privatisation there are quite a few lines which used to have through trains and now don't. Some examples are the Crewe to Newark Castle trains used to run from Manchester Airport to Nottingham then on to either Skegness, Lincoln Central or Grimsby Town but now of course they don't. Also Some of the Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness trains used to terminate at Millom but since 2005 (I think) they haven't.