Which diesel service spends the most time on electrified lines?

[chris89]

Erm, I'd say the longest proportion of diesel under wires, ermm.....

Birmingham - Scotland!

I agree on that and was supprised no one mentioned it. About 3hr 40ish from Wolvo' so add on 20mins from B'ham.

Chris

 

[142094]

It isn't a 'short line' though as it carries on to Carlisle and there isn't a justification for electrifying the whole route that I can see.

Filling in MetroCentre - Newcastle would be useful in terms of displacing two or three DMUs which work the Morpeth - MetroCentre and Newcastle - MetroCentre trains, but again it is finding EMUs to replace them and where they would be maintained.

Heaton: The final outpost of the Pacer railbus. It has a nice ring to it, and I can fully imagine that it'll be the case.

From a bashing point of view, I hope it is. Otherwise I'll have to travel a lot to get them before they go.

 

[YorkshireBear]

what about harrogat trains, leeds harrogate isnt far?

 

[Anvil1984]

Some of the Euston - Preston / Lancaster services are booked as Voyagers (probably until they are allowed to play with the new Pendos)

Manchester - Birmingham / Coventry XC
Glasgow - York (Plus Nevile Hill to Wakefield) XC
Newcastle - Doncaster XC

 

[tbtc]

It isn't a 'short line' though as it carries on to Carlisle and there isn't a justification for electrifying the whole route that I can see.

Its a short bit of line from the south bank of the Tyne (where it diverts from the electrified ECML) to the Metro Centre. This would allow the Morpeth DMUs to be replaced by EMUs.

Electrification further west is less beneficial due to the lower frequency (esp beyond Hexham)
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Erm, I'd say the longest proportion of diesel under wires, ermm.....

Birmingham - Scotland!

Dealt with in the first post:

For the sake of argument, I'm not talking about services that are 100% electrified (STW 158s on the Lymington branch, Virgin's Birmingham - Edinburgh Voyagers) - this is a "stock" issue and could be resolved with EMUs. I am talking about the diesel services which could become EMU if little gaps are electrified.

These are routes which could already be EMU run, but have diesels either because of lack of suitable electrified stock or operational convenience (e.g. allowing interworking with other services). The reason for the thread was to talk about those short gaps which could be electrified to save long DMU distances under the wires.

 

[sprinterguy]

Erm, I'd say the longest proportion of diesel under wires, ermm.....

Birmingham - Scotland!

I agree on that and was supprised no one mentioned it. About 3hr 40ish from Wolvo' so add on 20mins from B'ham.

Chris

If you read the original post then you'll see that routes entirely under the wires are discounted from this discussion, as they are simply an issue of insufficient rolling stock as opposed to an infrastructure issue, where a short unelectrified section is holding back electric operation on the route.

EDIT: tbtc beat me to it.

 

[tbtc]

If you read the original post then you'll see that routes entirely under the wires are discounted from this discussion, as they are simply an issue of insufficient rolling stock as opposed to an infrastructure issue, where a short unelectrified section is holding back electric operation on the route.

EDIT: tbtc beat me to it.

You put it better than I did!

Another example I'm wondering about is the famous Liverpool - Norwich

Liverpool station is electrified
Unelectrified as far as Deansgate
Electrified Deansgate - Hazel Grove
Unelectrified Hazel Grove - Grantham
Electrified Grantham - Peterborough
Unelectrified Peterborough - Ely
Electrified at Ely
Unelectrified Ely - Norwich
Electrified at Norwich

Thats a lot of gaps to fill - sadly the main one from Hazel Grove to Grantham is too long to ever consider EMUs on this service in the short/medium term.

 

[Anvil1984]

Do mine still count then

Manchester - Bournemouth XC (OHLE Manchester - Coventry (Birmingham NS if via Solihull) then 3rd rail somewhere in the south (at a guess Basingstoke - Bournemouth)

Manchester - Bristol XC (OHLE Manchester - Barnt Green)

Discount my Virgin examples though as they are completely under wires (unless on diversion)
Scotland - South West XC (OHLE Glasgow - York Colton Jn, Neville Hill - South Kirby Jn, Birmingham -Barnt Green)

Newcastle - Southampton (Mixture of above Newcastle - Doncaster, Basingstoke to Southampton (third rail))

Throw in Leeds - Sheffield via Wakefield Westgate (electrified Leeds - South Kirby Jn)

 

[OxtedL]

That's a point - I imagine that any XC new rolling stock (or pantograph car, or whatever) following electrification would need shoes as well, wouldn't it...
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All three of North Downs, Uckfield and Ashford-Brighton run extensively on third rail. Although they probably don't top the list posted already, they must all be around the 50% mark...

 

[kennethw]

Do mine still count then

Manchester - Bournemouth XC (OHLE Manchester - Coventry (Birmingham NS if via Solihull) then 3rd rail somewhere in the south (at a guess Basingstoke - Bournemouth)

Felt like mentioning this as it would start out under 25KV, then via Banbury Oxford and Reading, then Basingstoke where it joins the 750v 3rd rail Southern

 

[OxtedL]

I went away and did the maths...

Gatwick to Reading 41% electrified
London Bridge to Uckfield 46% electrified
Brighton to Ashford 62% electrified

All three together incur less than 80 route miles of electrification by my count.

 

[Crossover]

what about harrogat trains, leeds harrogate isnt far?

To add to this, EC Harrogate to London KX would be a contender for it.

I would also say Ilkley, but that in electrified and I think is now running with 225 sets
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Out of interest, how would Birmingham - Walsall - Rugeley - Stafford compare time-wise with the busy route through Wolves?

If you mean travelling from BHM to STA via WVH or RGL then:

Birmingham New St - Wolves - Stafford takes ~35 minutes

Birmingham New St - Rugeley TV takes nearly an hour and then Rugeley TV to Stafford takes about 10 minutes. So about twice as long assuming you have a direct connection at RGL (such as when they used to run to Stafford), otherwise longer.

 

[OxtedL]

Birmingham New St - Rugeley TV takes nearly an hour and then Rugeley TV to Stafford takes about 10 minutes. So about twice as long assuming you have a direct connection at RGL (such as when they used to run to Stafford), otherwise longer.

So plausible diversion route then?

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Sunderland - Kings Cross

Sunderland is electrified, not electrified until Northallerton then fully electrified to Kings Cross.

 

[Anvil1984]

Sunderland is electrified but is DC electrified not AC as per heavy rail standard

 

[OxtedL]

Yes, to get that to work we'd have to do something...French (shudders)...

 

[Crossover]

So plausible diversion route then?

Potentially, but my suspicion is that it will be only cleared for 170/153 units (and maybe some others too) as run down the line from New St to Rugeley Trent Valley (and then used to continue onto Stafford)

I've not heard of the likes of Voyagers ever running down the Chase Line.

I have been on a service in time of disruption and taken the line up to Nuneaton before reversing back out through Water Orton (I think) - probably just as quick.

I also wondered whether they could use the freight chord from the WCML to Lichfield TV HL, but that would require reversal and for Northbound trains, would mean navigating all the WCML running limes, so possibly not adviseable anyway! (although the Stafford-Rugeley TV used to do similar when it ran)

 

[LE Greys]

You put it better than I did!

Another example I'm wondering about is the famous Liverpool - Norwich

Liverpool station is electrified
Unelectrified as far as Deansgate
Electrified Deansgate - Hazel Grove
Unelectrified Hazel Grove - Grantham
Electrified Grantham - Peterborough
Unelectrified Peterborough - Ely
Electrified at Ely
Unelectrified Ely - Norwich
Electrified at Norwich

Thats a lot of gaps to fill - sadly the main one from Hazel Grove to Grantham is too long to ever consider EMUs on this service in the short/medium term.

Well, wind it on ten years, assume that Liverpool-Deansgate is done as part of the NW scheme and the MML is wired as far as Fitzwilliam (which I hope will happen). Suddenly it looks more like this:

Liverpool station is electrified
Electrified as far as Hazel Grove
Unelectrified Hazel Grove - Dore
Sheffield station is electrified
Electrified Dore - Nottingham
Unelectrified Nottingham - Grantham
Electrified Grantham - Peterborough
Unelectrified Peterborough - Ely
Electrified at Ely
Unelectrified Ely - Norwich
Electrified at Norwich

Filling in the Ely-Peterborough gap can be justified as diversionary route for the ECML, Hazel Grove-Dore maybe as part of an electric freight route, same possibly for Nottingham-Grantham. Ely-Norwich is more spurious, but it counts as a "might as well finish the job" section. Electric Norwich-Glasgow anyone?
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As for most time, the 4 hrs 22 mins of the Highland Chieftain seem very likely. Unless you count the occasional 67 substituting for a 90 on the Caley Sleeper.

 

[tbtc]

If you mean travelling from BHM to STA via WVH or RGL then:

Birmingham New St - Wolves - Stafford takes ~35 minutes

Birmingham New St - Rugeley TV takes nearly an hour and then Rugeley TV to Stafford takes about 10 minutes. So about twice as long assuming you have a direct connection at RGL (such as when they used to run to Stafford), otherwise longer.

Cheers.

Given that the stops which the 170s make, I guess there's scope to shave a couple of minutes off, but certainly not enough for the Chase line to be an alternative to the Wolves line (e.g. if it was roughly the same then you could run some longer distance services that way, avoiding congestion at Wolverhampton and giving Walsall a decent service to the north for the first time)
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Well, wind it on ten years, assume that Liverpool-Deansgate is done as part of the NW scheme and the MML is wired as far as Fitzwilliam (which I hope will happen). Suddenly it looks more like this:

Liverpool station is electrified
Electrified as far as Hazel Grove
Unelectrified Hazel Grove - Dore
Sheffield station is electrified
Electrified Dore - Nottingham
Unelectrified Nottingham - Grantham
Electrified Grantham - Peterborough
Unelectrified Peterborough - Ely
Electrified at Ely
Unelectrified Ely - Norwich
Electrified at Norwich

Filling in the Ely-Peterborough gap can be justified as diversionary route for the ECML, Hazel Grove-Dore maybe as part of an electric freight route, same possibly for Nottingham-Grantham. Ely-Norwich is more spurious, but it counts as a "might as well finish the job" section. Electric Norwich-Glasgow anyone?

Good thinking. Given the ten/eleven/twelve (?) DMUs needed to run the Liverpool - Norwich service, it would mean a lot of DMUs "saved" which may improve the business case for the remaining bits of electrification (I think Liverpool - Warrington - Deansgate and the MML are good enough business cases already)

 

[els]

I went away and did the maths...

Gatwick to Reading 41% electrified
London Bridge to Uckfield 46% electrified
Brighton to Ashford 62% electrified

All three together incur less than 80 route miles of electrification by my count.

Ore to Ashford electrification would be a good one, not so much for the Brighton service (which is very popular and often full) but for Javelins reaching Hastings, which would be a really good boost for the town.

 

[Striker]

Ore to Ashford electrification would be a good one, not so much for the Brighton service (which is very popular and often full) but for Javelins reaching Hastings, which would be a really good boost for the town.

You mean Javelins to run St Pancras-Ashford-Hastings?

There is no connection from HS1 to the Ashford-Hastings line.

 

[OxtedL]

That is indeed exactly what he meant. It has been tossed around before.

Do the javelins run into 1/2 at Ashford then?

 

[Striker]

Don't know the platform numbers, just that they can't get across all the lines and onto the Hastings line.

 

[OxtedL]

Hmmm... I don't think 5/6 (Marshlink normally 5 I believe?) have wires, so you're almost certainly right there...

 

[BrummyBoy]

Potentially, but my suspicion is that it will be only cleared for 170/153 units (and maybe some others too) as run down the line from New St to Rugeley Trent Valley (and then used to continue onto Stafford)

I persume 150's are cleared as they used to operate the service.

 

[thewolf]

Potentially, but my suspicion is that it will be only cleared for 170/153 units (and maybe some others too) as run down the line from New St to Rugeley Trent Valley (and then used to continue onto Stafford)

I've not heard of the likes of Voyagers ever running down the Chase Line.

Think you might be right about that. Probably just the LM diesels cleared along there.

Seeing as when Wolves - Stafford has been closed the XC Birmingham - Manchester gets routed via Nuneaton. As was the case a while ago when a points failure trapped my train on the wrong side of Stafford station, we had to go down to Nuneaton and reverse rather than down the Chase Line to get to New St.

Another problem along there might well be the lack of capacity signalling wise. There's long sections of absolute block (is that right?) signalling along there which can cause disruption pretty quick if something gets in the way/held up. Been on a service that got terminated early at Hednesford about 20 minutes late, despite leaving Walsall more or less on time after a coal train had been put in front of it.

I think there are plans to resignal it and improve linespeeds and such which would improve things a great deal I should imagine, possibly making it a more attractive diversionary route?