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Where should XC serve?

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Whistler40145

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Would be good for XC to serve Milton Keynes, quite easy once Bletchley to Oxford is reopened, you could alternate services via Leamington Spa or Rugby (via Northampton), but depends on capacity Coventry-Rugby, otherwise route via Nuneaton.

How well patronised are the XC Southampton/Bournemouth trains south of Reading?

Maybe extend some Bristol terminating services to Southampton via Salisbury?
 
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FQ

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How well patronised are the XC Southampton/Bournemouth trains south of Reading?

Absolutely heaving at Leamington Spa on the way to Southampton/Bournemouth and on the few times I have seen one leave Reading they have been full.
 

swt_passenger

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How well patronised are the XC Southampton/Bournemouth trains south of Reading?

Bournemouth trains are almost empty, the Southampton trains are a waste of a useful spare unit.

Alternatively, Bournemouth trains were so busy that a decision was made to augment the service by running an extra train over a large section of the route every 2 hours Monday to Saturday.

Your decision...
 
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I'm wondering where XC should serve? Should it extend its existing routes, call at more or less stations, travel across new routes, be more frequent or less frequent on some routes. Are there any current routes which should be brought within XC's control or are there any routes that should be taken off XC and given to another TOC?

Going back to the original question:
I think it is important to remember that originally the Cross Country franchise was the part of the old Intercity network that did not terminate in London. I believe this does not sit well with it current specification as a cross Birmingham service. The current XC network therefore has a very uneasy alliance of, albeit extended, commuter services with their priorities of capacity and frequency with the origin to destination journey times, reserved seating, catering and comfort requirements of the long distance traveler. Consequently, neither party is happy with the service provided by XC at present.

My preferred solution would be to create two new franchises:

The extended Birmingham services - terminating in a circle from Reading through Bristol and Cardiff, Crewe or Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, round to Cambridge or Stansted Airport. This would mirror any new TransPennine (?& Northern) Franchise based on Manchester and Leeds which could take on some services to the South e.g. Nottingham. Both of these could reasonably be provided with rolling stock with an emphasis on airline style seating, trolley catering but also reasonable luggage space and 1st Class cabins.

The Inter-city services serving only the largest cities, or stations which are key interchanges with regional services, and ports or airports?. Here the emphasis would be on journey times between the key cities e.g. Manchester to Bristol, Southampton to Leeds, Newcastle to Birmingham etc at the possible expense of frequency (e.g. 1tph or less). Given its geographic location, a majority of these may well route through Birmingham but not necessarily (e.g. Reading to Yorkshire services might be better served by not routing via New Street). The rolling stock on these routes would be optimised for longer journeys with hot meal catering, separate 1st Class coaches, and bay seating in standard providing appropriate luggage space.

Some of the routes provided by the second franchise may have to come from other franchises (e.g. TPE Manchester to Scotland services, Virgin Birmingham to Scotland services) as well as XC.

What do others think?
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Bournemouth trains are almost empty, the Southampton trains are a waste of a useful spare unit.

Alternatively, Bournemouth trains were so busy that a decision was made to augment the service by running an extra train over a large section of the route every 2 hours Monday to Saturday.

Your decision...

If paths and demand exist could a 2nd voyager start somewhere else to the west and join to the Bournemouth one at Reading then follow the normal route to Manchester Piccadilly?
 

Tomnick

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Even if there are paths and demand (from where? - "somewhere to the west" sounds like you've got a solution looking for a problem...), where's the extra stock going to come from...?
 

FQ

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Well I think you might need to peer a bit harder next time as not all of them are by any means. Or are you letting your hatred of Voyagers and XC get in the way of a bit of objectivity

Ask anyone who has traveled to Leamington Spa/Banbury on a Bournemouth/Southampton Central/Reading train. The Bournemouth trains are always heaving and so are the Southampton trains. Though maybe most people get off at Oxford or Reading as the trains to Reading are also rammed.
 

Minilad

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Ask anyone who has traveled to Leamington Spa/Banbury on a Bournemouth/Southampton Central/Reading train. The Bournemouth trains are always heaving and so are the Southampton trains. Though maybe most people get off at Oxford or Reading as the trains to Reading are also rammed.

I don't need to ask anyone. I am a driver for XC and drive this route 3 or 4 times a week at least. They are nothing like what you suggest a lot of the time. Especially the Reading / Southampton trains
 

SpacePhoenix

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Long term, once the section between Basingstoke and Reading is electrified, could a new route be introduced - Weymouth-Waterloo via Reading? Weymouth-Basingstoke as now, then Basingstoke-Reading, then Reading-Waterloo using the current route of the Reading-Waterloo trains? Don't know if the connection physically exists at Reading or if there would be the scope to add the needed connection.

Though would that lead to the XC trains terminating at Reading instead of going through to Bournemouth?
 

Senex

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Going back to the original question:
I think it is important to remember that originally the Cross Country franchise was the part of the old Intercity network that did not terminate in London. I believe this does not sit well with it current specification as a cross Birmingham service. The current XC network therefore has a very uneasy alliance of, albeit extended, commuter services with their priorities of capacity and frequency with the origin to destination journey times, reserved seating, catering and comfort requirements of the long distance traveler. Consequently, neither party is happy with the service provided by XC at present.

I agree very much. When InterCity was set up there were pressures to avoid its being seen as an all-London operation, and that brought in the higher quality cross-country services, though always with some strange exceptions (perhaps the most obvious being Liverpool-Newcastle). This all happened at a time when there were pressures (Prime User for infrastructure, OfQ, and all that) to cut down on the infrastructure facilities any of the sub-sectors was using, eliminate surplus capacity, and rationalise routings. This did not just happen on the cross-country services -- how many people remember the serious suggestions that Colwich to Stone might be closed? Anyway, a combination of pressures led to a concentration on Birmingham and fewer routes being served, and that is what in due course the privatised railway inherited. As CheshireCrusty says, the result is a compromise that doesn't satisfy anyone properly. The argument has been very much developed in other threads in connection with the (non-CrossCountry) Manchester-Leeds route: is it a commuter line that should be organised to meet the needs of Huddersfield and Dewsbury, or is it an InterCity route linking the great cities of Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, and Newcastle?

The extended Birmingham services - terminating in a circle from Reading through Bristol and Cardiff, Crewe or Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, round to Cambridge or Stansted Airport. This would mirror any new TransPennine (?& Northern) Franchise based on Manchester and Leeds which could take on some services to the South e.g. Nottingham. Both of these could reasonably be provided with rolling stock with an emphasis on airline style seating, trolley catering but also reasonable luggage space and 1st Class cabins.

Leeds and Manchester are every bit as significant hubs as Birmingham, but all the arguments seem to have been dominated by Birmingham because it is "InterCity". The problem with this proposal is that many of the trains connecting, say, Manchester with Birmingham, would to make the best operational sense be the same as those making the, say, Birmingham to Bristol run -- which promptly makes them long-distance inter-city and needs fast journey times between the main centres.

The Inter-city services serving only the largest cities, or stations which are key interchanges with regional services, and ports or airports?. Here the emphasis would be on journey times between the key cities e.g. Manchester to Bristol, Southampton to Leeds, Newcastle to Birmingham etc at the possible expense of frequency (e.g. 1tph or less). Given its geographic location, a majority of these may well route through Birmingham but not necessarily (e.g. Reading to Yorkshire services might be better served by not routing via New Street). The rolling stock on these routes would be optimised for longer journeys with hot meal catering, separate 1st Class coaches, and bay seating in standard providing appropriate luggage space.

Some of the routes provided by the second franchise may have to come from other franchises (e.g. TPE Manchester to Scotland services, Virgin Birmingham to Scotland services) as well as XC.

Agreed. There is no doubt that TPE within the resources available to it has made a brilliant success of the Manchester-Scotland route after InterCity both under BR and under privatisation had failed really to attempt to develop it at all. But if Birmingham to Stansted or Nottingham to Cardiff are "worth" InterCity status, surely Manchester to Edinburgh or Glasgow is, in spades?

Given the franchising we are now stuck with, it is probably to late for a total re-think. But I still think -- even though there can validly be argument over many of the details -- that the German division of inter-city services linking the main centres and covering their costs, and then Regional Express and Regional Rail services specified by the federal states to meet the perceived transport needs of their areas and subsidised where necessary by the states is a good one (and it is a system broadly followed in other large European countries as well).

Reverting for a moment to my opening comments, I wonder what sections of line and track facilities lost in the mad rush to rationalise of the eighties are now most to be regretted. I'd put up CrossCountry's original direct route from Sheffield to Leeds, now lost between Wath Road Jn and Normanton for one, and probably Denton Jn to Droylesden Jn for another.
 

route:oxford

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I don't need to ask anyone. I am a driver for XC and drive this route 3 or 4 times a week at least. They are nothing like what you suggest a lot of the time. Especially the Reading / Southampton trains

They just happen to be rammed every time I use one... Wouldn't be the first time I've stood from Birmingham to Oxford.

Indeed, I've now practically given up on taking the train between Oxford and Birmingham. From East Oxford it is simply cheaper and more comfortable to drive to Birmingham International and pick up one of the Virgin Edinburgh/Glasgow services that call there.

Whilst I do really quite like Voyagers, on the return journey from Scotland where passengers from a 9/11 coach Virgin Pendolino are instructed by National Rail to change into an already packed 4 car Voyager to complete their journey to Birmingham or beyond, it is utter misery and an absolute scrum.

Alternatively just grab a coach to Baker Street and walk along to Kings Cross or Euston.
 

Tomnick

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Long term, once the section between Basingstoke and Reading is electrified, could a new route be introduced - Weymouth-Waterloo via Reading? Weymouth-Basingstoke as now, then Basingstoke-Reading, then Reading-Waterloo using the current route of the Reading-Waterloo trains? Don't know if the connection physically exists at Reading or if there would be the scope to add the needed connection.

Though would that lead to the XC trains terminating at Reading instead of going through to Bournemouth?
Can you provide any sort of justification for that, or is it just a case of joining up dots on a map?
 

DarloRich

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Can you provide any sort of justification for that, or is it just a case of joining up dots on a map?

that is all this thread is about!

I would like to see Liverpool added to the XC network as it is a sizeable city. Although i doubt the stock can be stretched any further.

In due course i would like to see the E-W line used if at all possible to offer some different journey options but otherwise i cant really see how XC can run anymore trains. The ones they have are already packed!

TBH they need to consider cutting some routes/ stations to give more capacity on the core routes
 

The Planner

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Once HS2 opens XC will be a very different beast and may not even exist at all if it all goes hub and spoke.
 

Whistler40145

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Liverpool should definitely be returned to the CrossCountry network & alternate with the current Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth service, reintroduce a service to Brighton via Kensington Olympia (depending on available paths either via Oxford, Reading & Kenny O or direct via Milton Keynes & Watford)?
 

fowler9

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I really don't like the "Where is the stock going to come from" comments. It isn't going to come from anywhere. We aren't Cross Countries management or a government planning committee, it is just an open forum for people to discuss ideas. I personally think it is crazy that Liverpool isn't on the cross country network but given the way the railways have been privatised I can't see that changing any time soon. We wil have to make do with linking in to the cross country network making long journies on suburban multiple units.
 

swt_passenger

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...reintroduce a service to Brighton via Kensington Olympia (depending on available paths either via Oxford, Reading & Kenny O or direct via Milton Keynes & Watford)?

The whole point is that there are no available paths on the Brighton main line - that's why the limited 3 trains per day service was pulled in the first place. The deemed requirement is for Brighton to have trains to London, either to Victoria or to Thameslink destinations via London Bridge.
 

swt_passenger

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On the subject of Kensington Olympia, are the Southampton/Bournemouth services diverted this way from Reading when the line is closed between Reading and Basingstoke?

No, and not much point at all as they can go via Wokingham to Guildford, which is on their normal network, and then via Havant and Fareham. The latter being the ECS route for the Guildford services to and from the depot at Eastleigh anyway...
 
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The Planner

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Liverpool should definitely be returned to the CrossCountry network & alternate with the current Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth service

Brum Manchester is a massive earner for XC so they won't want to bin a Manchester for a Liverpool. It would have to be an extra service on top, if one gets diverted via E-W in the future then there is more of a chance of it.
 

Whistler40145

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In the future, Liverpool to Bournemouth could be served by an Electric service if extended via Manchester Piccadilly.
 

dannypye9999

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Liverpool could be served today between Bournemouth and Manchester by extending them via Warrington Central to Lime Street using voyagers. Changes would be needed to the times of the current service along the route in order to make paths.
 

DarloRich

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Liverpool could be served today between Bournemouth and Manchester by extending them via Warrington Central to Lime Street using voyagers. Changes would be needed to the times of the current service along the route in order to make paths.

XC make good money on the Birmingham - Manchester leg. They wont want to put that at risk so would want an extra service.

Until they find some more trains....................
 

MidnightFlyer

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there already no more spare capacity on the section between Deansgate and Warrington Central, hence the odd stopping patters and closeness of departures at either end?
 

TimG

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The whole point is that there are no available paths on the Brighton main line - that's why the limited 3 trains per day service was pulled in the first place. The deemed requirement is for Brighton to have trains to London, either to Victoria or to Thameslink destinations via London Bridge.

Indeed. Given that it's a short walk from kings cross to euston you don't even have to get the tube.

How about Brighton - Bristol?
 

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How about Brighton - Bristol?

FGW already run 2 a day, 18:59 and 16:59 off Brighton os I am guessing it doesn't have many people on it?
 

MidnightFlyer

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FGW already run 2 a day, 18:59 and 16:59 off Brighton os I am guessing it doesn't have many people on it?

From the uproar that occurred on here and elsewhere when it was proposed to be discontinued under the new franchise I'd say it's probably a useful link. I'd guess the infrequency of it is owing to the lack of rolling stock FGW have - it'd take an extra two 15xs to run to Brighton every hour (and would also deprive Portsmouth of its direct link to Wiltshire, Bristol and Wales).
 
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