Where should XC serve?

[MCR247]

That is the problem with XC - it only effectively serves passengers who wish to travel to Birmingham.

Eh? No it doesn't. The trains travel through there, but nobody forces you to get off and visit the place

 

[The Planner]

My proposal would be to strengthen the Manchester to South West services with a routing via Crewe, Shrewsbury, [Ludlow], Hereford, Gloucester, Bristol, preferably calling at Manchester Airport and Wilmslow plus Bristol Parkway.

So you would go to Hereford, reverse, go to Worcester, reverse, go to Gloucester, reverse and on to Bristol? I take it you are not bothered how long this takes then, especially when you advocate going via London for Manchester to Reading as its quicker?

 

[backontrack]

That is the problem with XC - it only effectively serves passengers who wish to travel to Birmingham. I now tend to use the car or route via Newport for Manchester-Bristol and route via London for Manchester - Reading (faster and cheaper).

My proposal would be to strengthen the Manchester to South West services with a routing via Crewe, Shrewsbury, [Ludlow], Hereford, Gloucester, Bristol, preferably calling at Manchester Airport and Wilmslow plus Bristol Parkway.

Your post is laughable.

You say that you would use the car instead of CrossCountry, but then try to replace their route with one which is even worse?

I'd just get ATW to Newport (it means a 175 as well). Then I'd change onto a Bristol train, instead of reversing several times. What is the point of reversing at Hereford? You can change at Hereford for Worcester, and change at Newport for Cheltenham and Gloucester.

You essentially contradict yourself. If your customers can shave off a substantial amount of time by changing onto someone else's services, then that's a bad thing.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think that this thread has reached the stage where some absolutely absurd suggestions are being put forward.

 

[FQ]

I think that this thread has reached the stage where some absolutely absurd suggestions are being put forward.

Agreed. XCs main centre is Birmingham but it has branches out to places like Bournemouth, Manchester, Scotland, Penzance and places like that.

But I do think there should be a service to Brighton and maybe a place in the South Eastern network, Dover maybe.

But I would like to see XC back in London.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I disagree that CrossCountry should serve Brighton or a South Eastern destination. There's enough connectivity already,.

A passenger wishing to go from Brighton to Brum or Man Pic will find it quicker to take an express to Clapham Junction, WLL via Kensington Olympia, and change at Milton Keynes Central onto an LM or Virgin service than wait for a token once/twice daily Voyager.

I think that this thread has reached the stage where some absolutely absurd suggestions are being put forward.

How about a round trip combining a Eurostar station and an international port?

Ashford International - Hastings - Tonbridge - Redhill - Guildford - Woking - Basingstoke - Exeter St Davids - Bristol Temple Meads - Swindon - Coventry - Northampton - Bletchley - Bedford - Leicester - Norwich - Ipswich - Colchester - Harwich International

 

[PHILIPE]

Agreed. XCs main centre is Birmingham but it has branches out to places like Bournemouth, Manchester, Scotland, Penzance and places like that.

But I do think there should be a service to Brighton and maybe a place in the South Eastern network, Dover maybe.

But I would like to see XC back in London.

They have already run to Brighton but withdrawn by DaFT. I can recall Liverpool, Portsmouth and Swansea at the time of Operation Princess in 2002, but similarly withdrawn.

 

[backontrack]

I think that this thread has reached the stage where some absolutely absurd suggestions are being put forward.

Would it be too late for Invershin-Berney Arms-Lostwithiel via Ardrossan Harbour and Kensington Olympia?

Calling at Brighton, of course, because every XC service has to call at Brighton.

On a more serious note, we can get some good suggestions. People just need to try harder.

Seriously, XC should serve Inverness. It would be a real benefit for Inverness passengers, and to serve Orkney and Skye holidaymakers.

Liverpool and Brighton already have decent services. From Brighton you can get to London, and from London you can get practically anywhere. Liverpool is the same; get on a train to Crewe or Brum, and change onto XC there.

Inverness doesn't have that good a frequency. It's trains are often overcrowded because it doesn't have an hourly service into Glasgow or Edinburgh. This is because it isn't fully doubled.

The Highland Chieftain is also very crowded. Yet, there are plans to get rid of it and make the passengers change at Edinburgh. Even more overcrowding.

We need the Highland Main Line fully doubled, and a service from the West Coast and Manchester into Inverness would be helpful. TPExpress could do it, but that would lead to a crowded 185. Voyagers would be perfect for the job, as they can use the wires north of Preston.

Only when we get issues such as this out of the way will we be able to allow frivolity.

So tell me why Brighton having no XC is a serious issue, if you want it on the network.

 

[DarloRich]

Could someone explain the thinking/obsession with Brighton and XC. What is the attraction/purpose?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Could someone explain the thinking/obsession with Brighton and XC. What is the attraction/purpose?

CrossCountry Voyagers look really quite nice in the ambiance of Brighton station? That's honestly the only reason I can think of.

There's trains from Gatwick Airport to Reading, regular trains from Brighton to Southampton Central, and services via the West London Line. CrossCountry services are totally superfluous on the intensively worked Southern network.

 

[FQ]

I think that this thread has reached the stage where some absolutely absurd suggestions are being put forward.

Really? How is this absurd?

A service from Bradford Interchange to Bradford Forster Square going Bradford Interchange-Blackburn-Preston-Lancaster-Carlisle-Edinburgh-Newcastle-Darlington-York-Leeds-Bradford Forster Square...

 

[Tomnick]

How about a round trip combining a Eurostar station and an international port?

Ashford International - Hastings - Tonbridge - Redhill - Guildford - Woking - Basingstoke - Exeter St Davids - Bristol Temple Meads - Swindon - Coventry - Northampton - Bletchley - Bedford - Leicester - Norwich - Ipswich - Colchester - Harwich International

Instead of Swindon, why not go via Birmingham New Street* and International, so that it can serve an international airport too. I think that'd really swing it towards being a roaring success.

* - not advertised as calling, of course, so that we can pretend that it doesn't go via New Street to satisfy those who'd rather go to great lengths to avoid it.

 

[backontrack]

CrossCountry Voyagers look really quite nice in the ambiance of Brighton station? That's honestly the only reason I can think of.

There's trains from Gatwick Airport to Reading, regular trains from Brighton to Southampton Central, and services via the West London Line. CrossCountry services are totally superfluous on the intensively worked Southern network.

Exactly. The only reason? Nostalgia.

If you want to look at this from a nostalgic perspective, make another thread. This isn't 'If XC served wherever you wanted, where would it?' thread, this is the 'Where should XC serve?' thread. Only post glaring omissions from the XC network, people.

Really? How is this absurd?

A service from Bradford Interchange to Bradford Forster Square going Bradford Interchange-Blackburn-Preston-Lancaster-Carlisle-Edinburgh-Newcastle-Darlington-York-Leeds-Bradford Forster Square...

No, it divides at Blackburn, the other part serving Fort William via Clitheroe, Hellifield, Settle, Carlisle, Dumfries, Paisley, Partick, Bowling, Crianlarich and Tyndrum Upper.

And it has to call Liverpool, well because. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

No, it's not nostalgia or any other such thing you care to think of.

Brighton happens to be the main urban and cultural centre of the South East outside of London. It is an important railhead to the surrounding area and connecting services, and with the exception of Thameslink, services to the North are generally impeded by London being in the way. Also there is the little matter of Gatwick Airport which will also attract some longer distance passengers, also with luggage.

Gatwick - Brighton is an eminently sensible corridoor to be served by longer inter-regional services, diagrams permitting.

 

[DarloRich]

No, it's not nostalgia or any other such thing you care to think of.

Brighton happens to be the main urban and cultural centre of the South East outside of London. It is an important railhead to the surrounding area and connecting services, and with the exception of Thameslink, services to the North are generally impeded by London being in the way. Also there is the little matter of Gatwick Airport which will also attract some longer distance passengers, also with luggage.

Gatwick - Brighton is an eminently sensible corridoor to be served by longer inter-regional services, diagrams permitting.

Really - is that route not already well served? is it not quicker by the exisiting routes?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm going to assume, working off there being 9tph each way through Balcombe and the complexity of matters around Croydon, that there's probably one path an hour left between Brighton and ~Clapham Junction, which I believe Southern want (wanted?). Would the most efficient use of that path really be a long distance service, or another service to connect up London, Gatwick and Brighton? I remember from the when I did it in the months before it was scrapped, the trains were well loaded from the North to Reading, where there was a mass exodus, then it filled up again with local traffic from East Croydon to London. Certainly any long distance journeys north these days will be significant;y quicker via London, especially now you have 3tph to both Manchester and Birmingham, and faster trains to the likes of Preston and Scotland.

 

[backontrack]

No, it's not nostalgia or any other such thing you care to think of.

Brighton happens to be the main urban and cultural centre of the South East outside of London. It is an important railhead to the surrounding area and connecting services, and with the exception of Thameslink, services to the North are generally impeded by London being in the way. Also there is the little matter of Gatwick Airport which will also attract some longer distance passengers, also with luggage.

Gatwick - Brighton is an eminently sensible corridoor to be served by longer inter-regional services, diagrams permitting.

Sorry mate, I believe what you want are Thameslink Improvements.

Is it really that hard to go through London, considering that it would be much longer to go on a round trip via Reading?

London isn't an obstacle. Granted, you personally might not want to go there, but a round trip from Brighton to Brum via Guildford, Reading and Leamington seems like a waste of a path for me. Go via Euston, and get to Birmingham much quicker on a Pendolino. Or, if it's the North East you want, you don't even need to go via Birmingham! Just hop on the Northern Line to King's Cross.

 

[Gareth]

Liverpool and Brighton already have decent services. From Brighton you can get to London, and from London you can get practically anywhere. Liverpool is the same; get on a train to Manchester, and change onto XC there.

Why would, let alone should, Liverpool passengers travel to Manchester to use CrossCountry? It makes no geographical sense. Liverpool passengers access these trains at Stafford or Birmingham; the irony being that we then support the viability of the services into Manchester. Same with the Scotland TPE trains, same with the airport.

As for Brighton, the attraction could well be accessibility from the south coast to other parts of the country without having to go into London. I don't know the state of play in terms of demand, but if such services could be sustained without London, then that would relieve pressure on infrastructure within that city, as well as avoid the need for passengers to have to mess about changing between London terminals.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry mate, I believe what you want are Thameslink Improvements.

Is it really that hard to go through London, considering that it would be much longer to go on a round trip via Reading?

London isn't an obstacle. Granted, you personally might not want to go there, but a round trip from Brighton to Brum via Guildford, Reading and Leamington seems like a waste of a path for me. Go via Euston, and get to Birmingham much quicker on a Pendolino. Or, if it's the North East you want, you don't even need to go via Birmingham! Just hop on the Northern Line to King's Cross.

Well, I guess that depends on whether you want to go to Bedford or not.

Quite a lot of Cross Country passenger flows are as quick/more comfortable via London or somewhere else, yet some people prefer not to change trains too many times. Particularly those with luggage (such as those spending a week away from Gatwick or a weekend in Brighton).

 

[swt_passenger]

If the reasons for withdrawing the fairly limited 3 tpd XC from Brighton (such as better use of paths for London services, and better use of the limited amount of rolling stock on the core routes) haven't gone away, why would they ever re-introduce them?

 

[yorksrob]

If the reasons for withdrawing the fairly limited 3 tpd XC from Brighton (such as better use of paths for London services, and better use of the limited amount of rolling stock on the core routes) haven't gone away, why would they ever re-introduce them?

Well, the BML's capacity issues are fairly intractable, although presumably it shouldn't be beyond the ability to time a few inter-regional departures outside of the rush hour. It might well be better to have them all going to London in the peak, but is this really the best use of line capacity throughout the day ? Already we have services which don't go beyond Gatwick outside of the peaks. Could not some of these paths South be used for an XC ?

I'd hope it's not entirely fanciful to hope that at some stage in the dim and distant future, XC might actually have had its rolling stock issues sorted out.

 

[CheshireCrusty]

So you would go to Hereford, reverse, go to Worcester, reverse, go to Gloucester, reverse and on to Bristol? I take it you are not bothered how long this takes then, especially when you advocate going via London for Manchester to Reading as its quicker?

Sorry - that was entirely my mistake, because I seldom travel to either I mixed up Gloucester and Worcester (and which one had the line to Hereford) - the routing would have to be via Abergavenny and the Newport East junction (which is too much like ATW, although that route could do with a capacity hike and 1st class) http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif

Really it goes to show we need a Wolverhampton to Kidderminster/Worcester link that would really speed things up and help segregate long distance from commuter traffic.

 

[The Planner]

There is, it just involves a change. Wolves to Smethwick Galton Bridge and then to Kiddy or Worcester. Or you go to New St and get a Worcester train from there. Not sure there is any demand for a direct service and it is impossible infrastructure wise to do Wolves to Kidderminster.

 

[backontrack]

Well, I guess that depends on whether you want to go to Bedford or not.

Quite a lot of Cross Country passenger flows are as quick/more comfortable via London or somewhere else, yet some people prefer not to change trains too many times. Particularly those with luggage (such as those spending a week away from Gatwick or a weekend in Brighton).

Not exactly.

Thameslink can get you to St Pancras. Once there, you can go to Kent, Sheffield, the East Midlands, and even Europe. You can also walk to Euston or King's Cross, for the North East and North West, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham or Scotland.

Just taking the tube opens up a lot more places too.

So why waste a path on a service that could easily be done if you changed at London? What's the point of an indirect service that takes a longer time than it would to change at London?

Why would, let alone should, Liverpool passengers travel to Manchester to use CrossCountry? It makes no geographical sense. Liverpool passengers access these trains at Stafford or Birmingham; the irony being that we then support the viability of the services into Manchester. Same with the Scotland TPE trains, same with the airport.

As for Brighton, the attraction could well be accessibility from the south coast to other parts of the country without having to go into London. I don't know the state of play in terms of demand, but if such services could be sustained without London, then that would relieve pressure on infrastructure within that city, as well as avoid the need for passengers to have to mess about changing between London terminals.

My mistake about Manchester. Edited.

I'm just going to say what I did earlier:

If your customers can shave off a substantial amount of time by changing onto someone else's services, then that's a bad thing.

 

[FQ]

Why waste a path on a service that could easily be done if you changed at London? What's the point of an indirect service that takes a longer time than it would to change at London?

Because lots of people wouldn't want to change at London, mainly elderly people but other people too. I know my granny won't for sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well, the BML's capacity issues are fairly intractable, although presumably it shouldn't be beyond the ability to time a few inter-regional departures outside of the rush hour. It might well be better to have them all going to London in the peak, but is this really the best use of line capacity throughout the day ? Already we have services which don't go beyond Gatwick outside of the peaks. Could not some of these paths South be used for an XC ?

Where do the units you use for the extension in the off-peak come from? If you look at the present extension of XC to Guildford as an example, it only works because it is done at either end of the day, very early and very late, and the unit runs ECS from or back to the depot. In the middle of the day you would have to feed extra units from somewhere into the normal peak clock face timetable OR you'd have to reduce frequency on a core route to provide the stock.

I just can't see XC's fleet size being arranged so that there are sufficient spare units to run mid-day extensions.

 

[adrock1976]

There is, it just involves a change. Wolves to Smethwick Galton Bridge and then to Kiddy or Worcester. Or you go to New St and get a Worcester train from there. Not sure there is any demand for a direct service and it is impossible infrastructure wise to do Wolves to Kidderminster.

There must have been some sort of demand at one time between Wolves and Kidderminster/Worcester, as the present line running through kidderminster was constructed by the Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway. The OW&WR sections that see regular scheduled passenger services is the present day Cotswold Line (Oxford - Worcester) and the Snow Hill lines (Worcester - Stourbridge). The section from Stourbridge to Round Oak has a very sporadic freight train movement every so often.

The section from Stourbridge to Wednesbury Great Western Street, and including the South Staffordshire line to Lichfield via Walsall, was mothballed 21 years ago. According to the West Midlands PTE (branded as Centro), there are presently aspirations to reopen the Stourbridge - Wednesbury section as a tram line, with freight trains also being able to run on it so as to avoid the steep Lickey Incline.

In peace

Adam

 

[Haydn1971]

Rather than think about where XC could serve, perhaps it would be better focus on how better to service demand so that passengers are having to stand after paying a full fare - I often travel on an anytime return, my out journey's typical are at a set time, great, I can book a seat - returns are less structured, sure I could use the text seat reservations, but at busy times these don't return a seat availability - so I have to take pot luck and battle other passengers for a seat - it's pants, they need longer trains especially at peak

 

[JamesRowden]

So why waste a path on a service that could easily be done if you changed at London?

Because lots of people wouldn't want to change at London, mainly elderly people but other people too. I know my granny won't for sure.

Change at Gatwick/Redhill and Reading.

On a side topic, I have been wondering if it would be worth exending London-Redhill-Tonbridge services to Dover to provide better non-London journeys between East Kent and Gatwick, Guildford, Reading and the Great Western network.

 

[The Planner]

The section from Stourbridge to Wednesbury Great Western Street, and including the South Staffordshire line to Lichfield via Walsall, was mothballed 21 years ago. According to the West Midlands PTE (branded as Centro), there are presently aspirations to reopen the Stourbridge - Wednesbury section as a tram line, with freight trains also being able to run on it so as to avoid the steep Lickey Incline.

Different topic entirely, but good luck with that one, it seems to be going cold as an aspiration, mostly down to cost.