Where should XC serve?

[D6975]

If you're going to send XCs to Sunderland and Hartlepool, surely the best option is to do the loop, rather than go to Sunderland or Hartlepool and reverse.
1tp2h going Darlington-Durham-Newcastle-Sunderland-Hartlepool-Northallerton.
and vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reintroducing Worcester is an easy enough change - it's not that much of a time penalty to route CF-Notts that way. The old CF-NSt services used to go that way and Kidderminster, not that I'm suggesting that to be a good idea.

 

[JamesRowden]

I have been wondering if the Reading Station upgrades and the future construction of platform '0' at Redhill will make it worth extending the Newcastle-Reading services through to Gatwick calling at Wokingham, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene and Redhill. If it ran 2 hourly in the place of the Southampton extensions it would not require extra rolling stock, otherwise it would. Although, I think that it is quite possible that an extension to Gatwick is not needed since the present connections at Reading between the Cross Country Network and the Sussex Coast network via the hourly Reading-Gatwick service might be commercially sufficient.

 

[transmanche]

I have been wondering if the Reading Station upgrades and the future construction of platform '0' at Redhill will make it worth extending the Newcastle-Reading services through to Gatwick calling at Wokingham, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene and Redhill. If it ran 2 hourly in the place of the Southampton extensions it would not require extra rolling stock, otherwise it would. Although, I think that it is quite possible that an extension to Gatwick is not needed since the present connections at Reading between the Cross Country Network and the Sussex Coast network via the hourly Reading-Gatwick service might be commercially sufficient.

TBH it might be better to extend the existing Reading-Gatwick service to somewhere like Oxford.

 

[JamesRowden]

TBH it might be better to extend the existing Reading-Gatwick service to somewhere like Oxford.

From what people have posted in other threads, there will be pathing issues between Oxford and Didcot with the potential introduction of East-West-Rail services on that section.

Perhaps a Manchester Cross Country service could be rerouted via Milton Keynes and ran using EMUs to take the place of the Reading to Milton Keynes East West Rail service (as I have seen posts about it being considered) and a Birmingham-Banbury-Reading-Gatwick service replacing the present Manchester service between Birmingham and Oxford.

 

[swt_passenger]

If it ran 2 hourly in the place of the Southampton extensions it would not require extra rolling stock, otherwise it would.

But what do you do with all the people who've spent the last few years getting used to the idea of a service that goes through to Southampton? It was introduced to fulfil a GWML RUS demand gap, not as a random choice. By all means extend the other 2 hourly train that terminates at Reading, but no-one is going to thank you for removing the Southampton extension now...

TBH it might be better to extend the existing Reading-Gatwick service to somewhere like Oxford.

You can only really do that if you accept that whichever of the existing Oxford trains chosen no longer runs through to Paddington. If only there were existing FGW services that terminated at Reading from the west that you could join up to the Gatwicks.

But even then within a few years you'll then have people moaning about running DMUs under the newly installed wires...

 

[The Planner]

Reintroducing Worcester is an easy enough change - it's not that much of a time penalty to route CF-Notts that way. The old CF-NSt services used to go that way and Kidderminster, not that I'm suggesting that to be a good idea.

Not much of a time penalty? I presume you are comparing running direct Stoke Works - Abbotswood to via the loop and a stop at Worcester? 7 minutes direct vs 20 including a stop at Worcester?

 

[Minilad]

Not much of a time penalty? I presume you are comparing running direct Stoke Works - Abbotswood to via the loop and a stop at Worcester? 7 minutes direct vs 20 including a stop at Worcester?

Which therefore means drivers can't do BHM-CDF-BHM in one go as they do now as it would put them over driving hours

 

[D6975]

Not much of a time penalty? I presume you are comparing running direct Stoke Works - Abbotswood to via the loop and a stop at Worcester? 7 minutes direct vs 20 including a stop at Worcester?

Not that much is it really - as nothing compared with the extra time they take by running via Derby rather than direct Notts-Burton as they once did. Shame if that extra bit is enough to take them over hours, but if only alternate ones went that way - determined by a driver doing one route out, the other back, would that remain within hours?

 

[Class172]

Not much of a time penalty? I presume you are comparing running direct Stoke Works - Abbotswood to via the loop and a stop at Worcester? 7 minutes direct vs 20 including a stop at Worcester?

Not that much is it really - as nothing compared with the extra time they take by running via Derby rather than direct Notts-Burton as they once did. Shame if that extra bit is enough to take them over hours, but if only alternate ones went that way - determined by a driver doing one route out, the other back, would that remain within hours?

Compared to some of the other suggestions made on this thread so far, a change of less than 15 minutes is fairly minimal, more so as it does not "extend" the route per se.

What I have suggested in the past is 1tp2h, so that not every train is diverted onto the line, and I believe that is a reasonable service provision for the city.

 

[Minilad]

Not that much is it really - as nothing compared with the extra time they take by running via Derby rather than direct Notts-Burton as they once did. Shame if that extra bit is enough to take them over hours, but if only alternate ones went that way - determined by a driver doing one route out, the other back, would that remain within hours?

No it wouldn't unfortunately.

 

[D6975]

Oh well - sorry Worcester, it looks like you'll have to wait for XC to get something faster than 170s for Notts-CFs before you stand a chance of being an XC station again.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Cardiff-Nottingham services extended to Lincoln.
Liverpool-Norwich service incorporated into XC network.
XC services calling at Gatwick Airport and Brighton again.
Possibly a Bristol-Brighton service via Southampton?

Without wanting to re-open old intercity vs regional express debates, XC is probably best calling at all of the larger towns and cities they pass though..

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It would be nice to see them run to the major tourist and seaside towns in the summer, like Poole, Weymouth, Brighton, Portsmouth (don't know if they already run there). There's probably a fair few places that would get the potential numbers of passengers in the summer time.

 

[The Planner]

Not that much is it really

In XC terms that is an eternity, considering the amount of teeth grinding that occurs if you try and extend a XC journey time by a minute. They are massively time orientated. The best chance Worcester has is if/when Worcester Pwy opens as the Notts Cardiffs will probably stop (dont expect the long distance stuff to as it very unlikely)

 

[dannypye9999]

Here my idea for XC services:

- Trains to run Bournemouth every 2 hours instead of hourly and the other service runs to Brighton making also a 2 hourly service.

-Nottingham to Cardiff extend to Swansea every two hours.

- Newcastle to Reading either extend to Southampton or Portsmouth/Ashford/Dover/Margate

- Weymouth put back on the map , aswell as Bradford and Liverpool

- long distance night trains re-instated on fri/sat

- Also Nottingham to Birmingham can be extended to Wolverhampton or Crewe to replace the recent withdrawn Virgin service

 

[The Planner]

I also presume that all these extra locations and services that XC are taking on will be ran by HST? they solve every rolling stock issue.

 

[Class172]

I also presume that all these extra locations and services that XC are taking on will be ran by HST? they solve every rolling stock issue.

Or a class 444 for when it's electrified...

 

[Class 170101]

I also presume that all these extra locations and services that XC are taking on will be ran by HST? they solve every rolling stock issue.

After a fashion.

I can see HSTs will end their days on Plymouth to Edinburgh via ECML services.

 

[dannypye9999]

After a fashion.

I can see HSTs will end their days on Plymouth to Edinburgh via ECML services.

Whys it so important for XC to always run HSTs along the vast distance Plymouth to Edinburgh (9 hours each way) route at their age? Wouldn't it be wiser to run them along the shorter routes Newcastle to Reading or Manchester to Bristol ?

 

[Class 170101]

Whys it so important for XC to always run HSTs along the vast distance Plymouth to Edinburgh (9 hours each way) route at their age? Wouldn't it be wiser to run them along the shorter routes Newcastle to Reading or Manchester to Bristol ?

Crewing issues, Do Reading (TMs) sign HSTs? I doubt Manchester crews do nor in the Southampton area.

HSTs also not allowed beyond Reading to Basingstoke unless the HSTs have short swing link bogies - something to do with touching the 3rd Rail which isn't good. So that would make diagramming Reading to Newcastle services interesting in that some of the diagrams go to Southampton.

Maintenance wise HSTs could realistically only be maintained and serviced at Edinburgh (Craigentinny), Leeds (Neville Hill), Plymouth (Laira) and maybe also at Bristol (St Phillips Marsh), Penzance (Long Rock), Aberdeen (Clayhills), Derby (Etches Park but most EMT maintenance is done at Leeds) and Newcastle (Heaton). I can't think of anywhere else on the XC route that would see HSTs for maintenance / fuelling.

 

[43074]

If I were to expand XC, I would serve:

- Portsmouth, by means of extending the Newcastle to Reading services that terminate at Reading. Alternatively, could the Southampton terminators go onto Portsmouth from there?
- Worcester, by extending the Nottingham to Birmingham services. Perhaps they could run onto Gloucester and terminate there, providing a near-hourly service between Worcester & Gloucester and offering Cardiff connections at Gloucester.
- Hull & Middlesbrough: perhaps by running the Reading to Newcastle service to either Hull or Middlesbrough every 2 hours, to minimise the extra stock required.

Obviously this is only fantasy, and so none of this is likely to happen unless the DfT change their minds over the matter.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

HSTs also not allowed beyond Reading to Basingstoke unless the HSTs have short swing link bogies - something to do with touching the 3rd Rail which isn't good. So that would make diagramming Reading to Newcastle services interesting in that some of the diagrams go to Southampton.

That can't be all routes as there's due to be HSTs to Wemouth later in the year (thread about it in the forum somewhere). Is there something unusual about the Reading-Basingstoke route?

 

[The Planner]

And how is all this going to be diagrammed.....

 

[swt_passenger]

That can't be all routes as there's due to be HSTs to Wemouth later in the year (thread about it in the forum somewhere). Is there something unusual about the Reading-Basingstoke route?

The limitation only concerns HSTs without SSL bogies. If they have the right bogies they can run via Basingstoke assuming suitable crew are trained. This proposal presumably assumes XC would have additional HSTs over today's fleet so they'd just have to organise the right type, like FGW have to.

 

[dannypye9999]

HSTs also not allowed beyond Reading to Basingstoke unless the HSTs have short swing link bogies - something to do with touching the 3rd Rail which isn't good. So that would make diagramming Reading to Newcastle services interesting in that some of the diagrams go to Southampton.

HSTs always used to run to Bournemouth in the days before the voyager

 

[JamesRowden]

The 'Route Specification 2014 Western' document shows a Cross-country service of 3tph between Reading and Oxford in 2019.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/route-specifications/2014/western.pdf

 

[Oswyntail]

And how is all this going to be diagrammed.....

An interesting, if frustrating, question.
I thought the point of this thread was to do what should have been done in the first place - identify the traffic flows that should have been included in the XC remit. The next step should have been twofold: to identify the stock available, then to prioritise those flows so that the most important ones could be served immediately using the available appropriate stock. There should then have been a continuing process of building up the stock base and serving those flows, until the whole XC remit is satisfied.
Instead, we have a reflection of what seems to have happened in real life. First we get a mixture of "What do we do now?" and "What would I personally like to do?". Then "Let's do this using our (favourite) stock, regardless of what is best for the flow".
Business planning is so much more complex than running a train set in the attic

 

[transmanche]

Instead, we have a reflection of what seems to have happened in real life. First we get a mixture of "What do we do now?" and "What would I personally like to do?". Then "Let's do this using our (favourite) stock, regardless of what is best for the flow".

Don't forget the "let's have XC serving x or y because they used to and that'll make me feel all warm and nostalgic for the 'good old days'..."

 

[fowler9]

Don't forget the "let's have XC serving x or y because they used to and that'll make me feel all warm and nostalgic for the 'good old days'..."

Well the question wasn't "Taking in to account infrastructure and pathing where should XC serve?". Thats why I said Liverpool.

 

[transmanche]

Don't forget the "let's have XC serving x or y because they used to and that'll make me feel all warm and nostalgic for the 'good old days'..."

Well the question wasn't "Taking in to account infrastructure and pathing where should XC serve?". Thats why I said Liverpool.

But would it be worthwhile and serve a useful purpose?

There's no point in adding a service just because of a nostalgic "it used to be like that" feeling...