Where else could the DLR extend to?

[The Box Photter]

I think I'd be reluctant to extend the DLR anywhere in central London: Aside from the problem of little room for new tunnels there, DLR trains are shorter - and therefore presumably have a lower capacity than - tube trains. And if you are going to find a way to tunnel anywhere in Zone 1, you'll probably want that tunnel to be used by the highest capacity trains you've got. And those aren't going to be DLR trains.

Outside zone 1 where routes aren't so packed out, there are more possibilities. I think the most useful extension of the Woolwich branch would be to Eltham town centre, via the Queen Elizabeth hospital and Eltham NR station. Possibly carry on to Mottingham or new Eltham just for the connectivity. The Woolwich DLR platforms point the wrong way for this, but with the DLR's ability to take sharp curves, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Other people have mentioned Bexleyheath. In fact the most ambitious of TfL's proposals was for a line from Ilford to Bexleyheath town centre, running Ilford - Barking - Gallions Reach - Thamesmead - Abbey Wood - Bexleyheath - Bexleyheath Centre. Personally I'd extend it at both ends to run Newbury Park - Ilford - etc. - Bexleyheath Town Centre - Crayford, but otherwise I think that would be amazingly useful.

Lewisham station isn't that conveniently sited for Lewisham Town Centre and I have sometimes thought that a short extension of the DLR to Lewisham High Street - and perhaps Lewisham University Hospital - would be well used. There have been various more ambitious proposals to extend the DLR from Lewisham to Bromley or Catford, but since those tend to involve the cheap option of running alongside existing rail lines (instead of running/tunnelling where people actually live and where the shops and businesses are), I'm not sure how useful they'd be.

For Stratford, I'd get rid of the DLR link to Stratford International (frankly, a travelator could make that connection just as quickly and a good deal more conveniently for most people), and tunnel it up to Walthamstow Central via Leyton and Leyton Midland Road instead.

I agree with other people's comments about closing Tower Gateway and running all services there to Bank instead. I'm not sure what the point of the expense of building Tower Hill platforms would be though since (a) it'd slow down the service to Bank, and (b) the DLR connects with the District and Circle lines at Bank anyway.

Your suggestions for east and south east extensions would be a good idea, but it would be a nightmare to send any additional trains into Bank. The station is overcrowded enough at present, especially with "headless chicken" tourists with wheeled suitcases during rush hour going to City Airport. If anything, the line should be extended westbound above ground at Tower Gateway towards the City and Airport trains should use that terminus.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Alas I've never been convinced there's enough space post-Thameslink extending the platform around toward City Thameslink: https://goo.gl/maps/1wi66fnKF6K2

Any new station platform will need to be straight as per the rules (only existing stuff gets grandfathered, I believe), and whilst a fag packet measurement using Google Maps's measuring tool suggests there's a chance you could fit in a single curved platform for a 3 car unit + buffer stop (lack of overrun may affect run-in, run-out times, take note), it'd be a somewhat tight radius and I doubt you could get permission to build it.
Otherwise you have to start knocking out walls, which is going to add extreme cost.

Yes I see what you mean. Just tried doing some measuring on Google maps, and to fit within the existing boundary, came up with this, which is slightly curved, but not very much, so I'm not sure if that's do-able. I'm going only by what I can see on Google maps, so hoping they are accurate, and I have the existing tunnel portals in the right places. Not sure precisely what the rules are on curved platforms, but the new platforms at London Bridge are quite curved, as is the new Westbound platform at Abbey Wood (I'm fairly sure that at Abbey Wood, the old platform it replaced was not curved).

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Yes I see what you mean. Just tried doing some measuring on Google maps, and to fit within the existing boundary, came up with this, which is slightly curved, but not very much, so I'm not sure if that's do-able. I'm going only by what I can see on Google maps, so hoping they are accurate, and I have the existing tunnel portals in the right places. Not sure precisely what the rules are on curved platforms, but the new platforms at London Bridge are quite curved, as is the new Westbound platform at Abbey Wood (I'm fairly sure that at Abbey Wood, the old platform it replaced was not curved).

Interesting. Though I would do a single platform, on the left of the track as we're looking at it on the map, that had its concourse extend right into Thameslink southbound platform; that'd be a sweet sweet transfer! Would keep the trackwork simple with just a Y point required, and ensures the widest concourse possible. Also avoids the need for a costly subway/footbridge to somewhere from the island platform. Having the single platform on the outside radius of the train would minimise curving issues too.

A footbridge from an island into the main station looks technically doable though - as the ground level concourse is the building on the left above the Thameslink tracks.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Scratch what I said - when you look at the flyover you can see that the old BedPan tracks actually go into tunnel right at the back: https://goo.gl/maps/qMfxkR8i8op

I might be being conservative but I think you might be able to fit in a single platform on the inner side of the curve, with a staircase and footbridge up to the main station. I measure just over 90m from the tunnel mouth to the second column of the station building (the one one-in from the corner with white-looking cladding - might be glass) if you go on a slight curve. As DLR 3-car trains are 87m, that's about enough + a buffer stop I think. You also want a few metres gap between any end to the DLR track and the LU ones.

Again, without more data there might be more room for manouvre than I'm suggesting. It feels like you could get a single platform in without too much work though - I think an island would be more tricky.

Edit: Or, radical idea - if you cut down to a single track earlier than the tunnel mouth, you could extend the platform inside the tunnel (since it's a subsurface dual-running line tunnel rather than a tube). That'd solve any curving and space issues and give a nice level concourse into the Thameslink southbound platform a la Jubilee line at Stratford, and not require a footbridge + lift. I'd put a trailing crossover in at Barbican then so any failure at Farringdon means trains can still reverse, making the branch a bit more resilient than it would be now.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think the problem with only a single platform to reverse in is resilience, and putting constraints on the maximum frequency. Compare with the arrangements at Bank where you can have three trains turning around at the same time (one unloading, one waiting in the siding to load, and one loading). Maybe if you did have crossovers at Barbican, and you were very ready to terminate trains short at Barbican, you could do just about do it, but it seems risky to me.

And yes, I think you're right about the tunnel. So possibly my diagram has the tracks entering the tunnel towards Barbican in the wrong place.

 

[ijmad]

I like that idea. But if you're going to do that, wouldn't it make sense to extend to Farringdon. After all, the platforms at Barbican that you're proposing using already have unused track in place heading straight to Farringdon! That would give direct interchange with Thameslink.

Based on the London Reconnections breakdown it would appear that going all the way to Farringdon using the widened lines is no-longer possible due to the Crossrail Eastern ticket hall. What would seem possible, though, is to site the station very slightly west of Barbican Tube station, so it can more directly connect with the Elizabeth Line's Eastern ticket hall (Barbican's connection will be quite poor, lift only).

 

[Clip]

Very easy - from Bank to stations at Blackfriars (also with a station on the Waterloo & City Line) and into Charing Cross’ old Jubilee platforms.

I dont think its 'very easy at all' to be honest with you. Going into Zone 1 now would really be difficult because it would use up a lot of the spare room down there due to the need for bigger tunnels and you would have to ask yourself if that would be worth it because anything after it would have to go ever deeperand then thats ever more costs to that next project.

For Stratford, I'd get rid of the DLR link to Stratford International (frankly, a travelator could make that connection just as quickly and a good deal more conveniently for most people), and tunnel it up to Walthamstow Central via Leyton and Leyton Midland Road instead.

Why? Its now quite well used throughout the day as people know they dont have to battle through the crowded shopping centre just to make a connection - when they get off at International Mainline station

I agree with other people's comments about closing Tower Gateway and running all services there to Bank instead. I'm not sure what the point of the expense of building Tower Hill platforms would be though since (a) it'd slow down the service to Bank, and (b) the DLR connects with the District and Circle lines at Bank anyway.

You cant suddenly find more capacity at Bank without a raadical rethink of the whole station - its a single headshunt and at peak they can fit anymore in there Tower Gateway ( also well used funnily enough) assists with this. Lets be honest its such a short walk to Tower Hill i really dont see the need for it- maybe an enclosed crossing so you dont have to go downstairs maybe but its not too much of an issue for the many people who do such journeys.

A future walkthrough 6-carriage DLR train is nothing to sniff at in terms of capacity.

6 carriage train? Wheres that come from then?

 

[VT 390]

6 carriage train? Wheres that come from then?[/QUOTE]


The new DLR trains TFL will be ordering will be fixed sets the equivalent of a 3 carriage train that are mostly used on the Lewisham line today.
I think they mean it will have six sections to it as the 3 car trains today are made up of 2 sections each making 6 sections in total

 

[ijmad]

6 carriage train? Wheres that come from then?

The new DLR trains TFL will be ordering will be fixed sets the equivalent of a 3 carriage train that are mostly used on the Lewisham line today.
I think they mean it will have six sections to it as the 3 car trains today are made up of 2 sections each making 6 sections in total

I tend to think of the current trains as six carriages, being 3 units of two articulated walkthrough cars. I suppose you could also view them as 3 'bendy' carriages. I'm not sure of the correct technical language.

The new DLR stock will be six walkthrough carriages, about the same length as a 3 unit train is right now.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

(About the Stratford International-Stratford DLR link)

Why? Its now quite well used throughout the day as people know they dont have to battle through the crowded shopping centre just to make a connection - when they get off at International Mainline station

I agree it's a lot better used nowadays than it was a couple of years ago. And I'm not suggesting you withdraw it and replace it with nothing. My thinking is that, at present, the as-the-crow-flies distance between the stations is 400m - about 5 minutes walk for most people. Right now, it's more than that because you have to fight your way through Westfield, but if you could build a decent travelator, avoiding the shops, it should be doable in less than 5 minutes for people walking along it - even allowing for that it would have to go a slightly indirect route. Compare with the current situation where for people arriving on HS1, it's still up to 100m walk to Stratford International DLR station, including crossing a road. Then you have to wait up to 10 minutes for a train which then takes an astonishingly roundabout route (and therefore about 3 minutes) to make the trip to Stratford. Looks to me like a decent travelator would be rather quicker for most people.

Of course the other, cheaper and therefore perhaps more pragmatic, way would be to just extend the DLR from the existing Stratford International platforms up to Leyton/Walthamstow. Cost-wise that would probably be a better option anyway.

You cant suddenly find more capacity at Bank without a raadical rethink of the whole station - its a single headshunt and at peak they can fit anymore in there Tower Gateway ( also well used funnily enough) assists with this. Lets be honest its such a short walk to Tower Hill i really dont see the need for it- maybe an enclosed crossing so you dont have to go downstairs maybe but its not too much of an issue for the many people who do such journeys.

I don't see that. Right now, at Bank, you have trains every 5 minutes to Lewisham. And after every two Lewisham trains, there's a Woolwich train, giving a rather irregular departure interval. I'd have thought that, if you can fit the Woolwich train into every 2nd Lewisham gap, then surely you should be able to fit a Beckton train in the remaining gaps. You'd have slightly more people using Bank DLR, but that would be balanced by the more even departure interval, which means fewer people would be waiting on the platform up to 10 minutes for their train (essentially, everyone heading for destinations between Poplar and Canning Town would see a train every 5 minutes instead of every 10 minutes). As a bonus, you also get rid of the conflicting moves where the Bank and Tower Gateway lines diverge. You don't need to build any new infrastructure (unless you're going to go for Tower Hill platforms on the Bank branch) and you could make some money by selling off Tower Gateway station for redevelopment.

If the issue is not platform capacity, but more general numbers using the station then ... well, Bank is getting rebuilt to vastly increase its capacity anyway.

 

[PeterC]

If Hall Farm Curve wasn't considered cost effective I doubt that digging a tunnel from Stratford to Walthamstow will get past the bean counters.

While changing at Tottenham Hale is not the best option the introduction of the STAR services will make it a serious alternative to the bus.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

In 2015 when the Victoria line was closed between Seven Sisters and Walthamstow Central, a Rail Replacement Express service was run between Walthamstow Central and Stratford City using the quiet industrial roads of west Walthamstow and Leyton. I'm surprised it didn't see more users (well, from my one time using it) and that there wasn't pressure to keep it, because it was super quick. That would be cheaper than any rail link and deliver something almost equivalent.

For those who know the area, line of route if I was doing it would be: Walthamstow Central (stop) - Selborne Road - South Grove (stop, for St James St) - Markhouse Avenue - South Access Road - Argall Avenue - Argall Way - Lea Bridge station (stop) - Orient Way - Eastway - Temple Mills Lane - Celebration Avenue - International Way (stop) - Stratford City Bus Station (stop). Call it X58. Maybe only run during peak periods, both directions.

 

[PeterC]

In 2015 when the Victoria line was closed between Seven Sisters and Walthamstow Central, a Rail Replacement Express service was run between Walthamstow Central and Stratford City using the quiet industrial roads of west Walthamstow and Leyton. I'm surprised it didn't see more users (well, from my one time using it) and that there wasn't pressure to keep it, because it was super quick. That would be cheaper than any rail link and deliver something almost equivalent.

For those who know the area, line of route if I was doing it would be: Walthamstow Central (stop) - Selborne Road - South Grove (stop, for St James St) - Markhouse Avenue - South Access Road - Argall Avenue - Argall Way - Lea Bridge station (stop) - Orient Way - Eastway - Temple Mills Lane - Celebration Avenue - International Way (stop) - Stratford City Bus Station (stop). Call it X58. Maybe only run during peak periods, both directions.

That would require some roadworks as the junction of South Access Road and Argall Avenue is restricted to a cycle track. I suspect that LBWF would not be too pleased as it would allow rat running, regardless of signage, unless you had rising bollards at the junction. It would certainly be against their policy of restricting all motorised traffic in the borough both private and public.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If Hall Farm Curve wasn't considered cost effective I doubt that digging a tunnel from Stratford to Walthamstow will get past the bean counters.

While changing at Tottenham Hale is not the best option the introduction of the STAR services will make it a serious alternative to the bus.

Therein of course lies the problem... Of being able to pay for something, no matter how useful it is.

Having said that, I'm not massively convinced about the Hall Farm curve. Sure, it would link Walthamstow and Stratford, but it would miss out virtually the entire population living in between those places - which is surely ought to be one of the main benefits of linking the two. Plus, if you don't pay for grade separated junctions, it's give a lot of conflicting moves, and it would provide an increased frequency on the Chingford line at its' Northern end, which I'm guessing is precisely the end that least needs it. A tunnel along the very heavily populated corridor up Leyton High Road would need major spending to build, but I'd have thought would be many, many, times more useful.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

That would require some roadworks as the junction of South Access Road and Argall Avenue is restricted to a cycle track. I suspect that LBWF would not be too pleased as it would allow rat running, regardless of signage, unless you had rising bollards at the junction. It would certainly be against their policy of restricting all motorised traffic in the borough both private and public.

It wouldn't The W19 currently runs to Argall Avenue via South Access Road. It can traverse the restriction by passing through a council depot that's in between the two roads and has rising bollards to stop private motor vehicles from passing through. So this route would simply make use of the same facility.

 

[LLivery]

Greenwich Peninsula?

With Crossrail not serving the Peninsula (which I think is a mistake), it could add another link to Canary Wharf and bridge the gap between North Greenwich station and Westcombe Park.

So extending the DLR from South Quay, I'd continue along Marsh Wall, over (or under) the river, north of the Golf Club, through North Greenwich station, then alongside East Parkside, West Parkside, onto the freight alignment and finally skirting off over the A102 and onto the Westcombe Park Car Park where I'm sure you could get 2 platforms.

I know the Lewisham branch capacity could be an issue, so you could risk re-building South Quay station (again) into a Canary Wharf style station. You could then terminate the Peninsula trains in a middle platform with cross-platform interchange for Lewisham, Stratford and Bank.

 

[Ianno87]

Greenwich Peninsula?

With Crossrail not serving the Peninsula (which I think is a mistake), it could add another link to Canary Wharf and bridge the gap between North Greenwich station and Westcombe Park.

Crossrail will indirectly benefit North Greenwich as it will heavily abstract from the current Jubilee Line in several manners:
-Central London<>Canary Wharf
-North Kent/Woolwich/Beckton-y people who currently use the DLR to access the Jubilee Line at Canning Town (who'll use Woolwich/Abbey Wood/Custom Houseinstead)
-To a lesser extent, those from Romford/Ilford, who may find heading cia Whitechapel more convenient to get to CW, rather than Jubilee from Stratford.

But yes, its always felt 'odd' the DLR not reaching North Greenwich.

 

[LLivery]

Crossrail will indirectly benefit North Greenwich as it will heavily abstract from the current Jubilee Line in several manners:
-Central London<>Canary Wharf
-North Kent/Woolwich/Beckton-y people who currently use the DLR to access the Jubilee Line at Canning Town (who'll use Woolwich/Abbey Wood/Custom Houseinstead)
-To a lesser extent, those from Romford/Ilford, who may find heading cia Whitechapel more convenient to get to CW, rather than Jubilee from Stratford.

But yes, its always felt 'odd' the DLR not reaching North Greenwich.

That is true. I'm not too worried about the Jubilee line's passenger numbers. I'm more worried about locally; the area is far too reliant on road transport and the Silvertown tunnel is going to make it even worse. The DLR or any form of light rail, like Canary Wharf, should've been supporting development from day one.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m very puzzled by some of the Bus changes around SE London,

For instance the 180 being diverted to North Greenwich is a bizarre decision? Surely Abbey Wood & Woolwich is going to pick up most of the commuters that previously head to NG?

Also the 53 being cut back to Elephant & Castle is another bizarre decision, since no every one will use CrossRail.

Back on topic, would it be worth extending the Woolwich branch to Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Blackheath Royal Standard?

I agree with the Lewisham branch being extended further into Lewisham and possibly Catford.

 

[Clip]

Back on topic, would it be worth extending the Woolwich branch to Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Blackheath Royal Standard?

That will need some pretty expensive tunneling to do that but thats not to say it couldnt be done but where does it come out and then on to? It cant stay underground all the way

 

[BritishGuy54]

I would like to see the DLR extended east to Dagenham Dock, so it interchanges with the c2c at Dagenham Dock, Overground at Barking Riverside and provide better connections for Canary Wharf and Custom House with Crossrail, and better connection in general between Newham and Dagenham

 

[LLivery]

I’m very puzzled by some of the Bus changes around SE London,

For instance the 180 being diverted to North Greenwich is a bizarre decision? Surely Abbey Wood & Woolwich is going to pick up most of the commuters that previously head to NG?

Also the 53 being cut back to Elephant & Castle is another bizarre decision, since no every one will use CrossRail.

Back on topic, would it be worth extending the Woolwich branch to Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Blackheath Royal Standard?

I agree with the Lewisham branch being extended further into Lewisham and possibly Catford.

I find it bizarre the 202 doesn't go to North Greenwich but I stopped trying to figure out some of the bus route logic. Merging the 63, 363 & N63 into one would make perfect sense to me but hey ho.

I've thought too, extending the DLR to Catford would be popular, anything taking off pressure from the roads would be welcome but too many hurdles or a route duplicating the Hayes line.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I’m very puzzled by some of the Bus changes around SE London,

For instance the 180 being diverted to North Greenwich is a bizarre decision? Surely Abbey Wood & Woolwich is going to pick up most of the commuters that previously head to NG?

Also the 53 being cut back to Elephant & Castle is another bizarre decision, since no every one will use CrossRail.

Back on topic, would it be worth extending the Woolwich branch to Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Blackheath Royal Standard?

I agree with the Lewisham branch being extended further into Lewisham and possibly Catford.

Extension beyond Woolwich isn’t sensible.

Extension beyond Lewisham I like the idea of in principle but you question to what extent it will make a vast difference. The Bakerloo line to Hayes is a definite win both for the Hayes line (far more trains per hour) and for the rest of the region (released paths). That said, the DLR isn’t suitable for a lengthy extension.

 

[TommyL4]

The Bakerloo line to Hayes is a definite win both for the Hayes line (far more trains per hour) and for the rest of the region (released paths). That said, the DLR isn’t suitable for a lengthy extension

Emmm, but surely one downside of the Bakerloo line extension, if I can ever see it happen, is the loss of direct services into the City for the Hayes line? And a not-too-long DLR extension is nice as for Canary Wharf and Stratford connections, I believe.

 

[VT 390]

Emmm, but surely one downside of the Bakerloo line extension, if I can ever see it happen, is the loss of direct services into the City for the Hayes line? And a not-too-long DLR extension is nice as for Canary Wharf and Stratford connections, I believe.

But the Bakerloo line should call at Lewisham, New Cross Gate and Elephant and Castle all of which provide connecting services to the city.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Merging the 63, 363 & N63 into one would make perfect sense to me but hey ho.

OT, but just to point out that the 63 and 363 were originally one route - the 363 was split out and 63 shortened to improve reliability.

 

[LLivery]

OT, but just to point out that the 63 and 363 were originally one route - the 363 was split out and 63 shortened to improve reliability.

Makes sense, but if the 3 and the 176 can be quite reliable, I find it odd that the 63/363 can't be.

Emmm, but surely one downside of the Bakerloo line extension, if I can ever see it happen, is the loss of direct services into the City for the Hayes line? And a not-too-long DLR extension is nice as for Canary Wharf and Stratford connections, I believe.

Of course it's the downside. Ask whether we want the tube in principle and some always jump at the chance. Ask us if we want longer journey times into Charing Cross and the City and you'll suddenly see the support start declining. But anyway, this isn't about the Bakerloo...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Emmm, but surely one downside of the Bakerloo line extension, if I can ever see it happen, is the loss of direct services into the City for the Hayes line? And a not-too-long DLR extension is nice as for Canary Wharf and Stratford connections, I believe.

But the gain of higher frequencies overall and then the connectivity at Lewisham, New Cross Gate and Elephant & Castle?

I get that this is a big change but if you asked me if I wanted a peak service of about every 20 minutes to Cannon / about every 20 minutes to Charing Cross from New Beckenham or a service every 5 minutes to Lewisham, Elephant, Waterloo, Charing Cross and the West End (including even Paddington for Heathrow) with about 5-minutely services from Lewisham to Cannon Street I’d take it every day. Especially if I also got a through service to Beckenham Junction for easier access to Bromley and beyond.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

But the gain of higher frequencies overall and then the connectivity at Lewisham, New Cross Gate and Elephant & Castle?

I get that this is a big change but if you asked me if I wanted a peak service of about every 20 minutes to Cannon / about every 20 minutes to Charing Cross from New Beckenham or a service every 5 minutes to Lewisham, Elephant, Waterloo, Charing Cross and the West End (including even Paddington for Heathrow) with about 5-minutely services from Lewisham to Cannon Street I’d take it every day. Especially if I also got a through service to Beckenham Junction for easier access to Bromley and beyond.

I totally agree with you (not that I'm from round those parts), but don't underestimate the City worker crowd who feel they have a divine right to a specific seat (despite it all being unreserved) on a specific timetabled train direct to the City every weekday and anything that interferes with that or changes their routine is to be obstructed in any way possible; promise frequent trains all you like.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I totally agree with you (not that I'm from round those parts), but don't underestimate the City worker crowd who feel they have a divine right to a specific seat (despite it all being unreserved) on a specific timetabled train direct to the City every weekday and anything that interferes with that or changes their routine is to be obstructed in any way possible; promise frequent trains all you like.

But let’s be honest in all of these situations Government has made their decision and they don’t care what people think. Consultations are a load of clap trap...