Correct, I should have perhaps made it clearer and said "staff". That or the unions may well be supportive with conditions (such as considerable pay rises).
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When to defend and when not to defend the railway
- Thread starter bakerstreet
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Correct, I should have perhaps made it clearer and said "staff". That or the unions may well be supportive with conditions (such as considerable pay rises).
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RailUK Forums
Well I wouldn't welcome working "any 5 days of the 7" for the same money: no compensation for never having 2 consecutive days off? I would expect my union to fight it tooth and nail, and I doubt the employer would manage to recruit either.
40 years ago I worked 5 days in 7 on the railway, but it was really 5 out of 6 (and Sundays voluntary,) with the rest day progressing so that although you only got a 2-day weekend occasionally it was usually at least a 3-day weekend - and you knew when it was going to come so that you could plan to make good use of it.
Lots of firms now have people working 4 days on 4 off, or 5 on, 3 off. I would have accepted the 5/3 pattern for the same annual salary as I think it brings benefits to both sides.
My perception, albeit as a now occasional passenger, is that the railways don't pay sufficient attention to the fine detail of customer service and the perception of customer service is rather narrow or siloed, it focusses on some areas but not others, so it does somethings very well and somethings appallingly.
A railway journey begins when you arrive at the station. Is it easy to get to? is there somewhere to park? often the car park is (or pre-COVID was) full and inadequate. You get your ticket and then you need to wait, is there a seat free, somewhere warm and dry to wait. Often there isn't, sometimes not only is there no seat, but nowhere warm and at too many stations nowhere dry, waiting is out on a wind-swept platform.
Stating the obvious but in 2021 that is no longer acceptable. It has probably never been acceptable and it's interesting when you see old photos of Victorian railways stations which were often better equipped, with canopy roofs and waiting rooms than their modern replacement. I think those Victorian railway entrepreneurs probably had more of a instinct for customer service than the post-nationalised, segmented industry which remains.
It's rather strange that we have an industry which can spend billions of pounds on upgrading signalling systems, electrifying lines, investing in new rolling stock to make the trains a few minutes quicker and yet still thinks its reasonable to have stations where passengers wait standing in the rain without so much as a roof over their heads. Absolutely bizarre!
A railway journey begins when you arrive at the station. Is it easy to get to? is there somewhere to park? often the car park is (or pre-COVID was) full and inadequate. You get your ticket and then you need to wait, is there a seat free, somewhere warm and dry to wait. Often there isn't, sometimes not only is there no seat, but nowhere warm and at too many stations nowhere dry, waiting is out on a wind-swept platform.
Stating the obvious but in 2021 that is no longer acceptable. It has probably never been acceptable and it's interesting when you see old photos of Victorian railways stations which were often better equipped, with canopy roofs and waiting rooms than their modern replacement. I think those Victorian railway entrepreneurs probably had more of a instinct for customer service than the post-nationalised, segmented industry which remains.
It's rather strange that we have an industry which can spend billions of pounds on upgrading signalling systems, electrifying lines, investing in new rolling stock to make the trains a few minutes quicker and yet still thinks its reasonable to have stations where passengers wait standing in the rain without so much as a roof over their heads. Absolutely bizarre!
One thing that bugs me about the railway and I think also annoys customers the most is lack of communication. If us as rail staff aren’t given the information we need, we can’t pass it on to the customers, and that often looks like we are being dishonest or covering stuff up.
Unfortunately sh*t rolls downhill. Another bugbear is the fact that during disruption the frontline management often seemingly disappear? It annoys me when I see the service we offer our customers sometimes. Equally though, I’ll defend the railway when people spout utter rubbish about how things are during disruption etc. One example, which is obviously being discussed a lot at the moment due to the time of year, and the recent Salisbury accident is “leaves on the line” (as the media usually caption it). So many people commenting on it but who really have absolutely no idea how it affects the railway.
Unfortunately sh*t rolls downhill. Another bugbear is the fact that during disruption the frontline management often seemingly disappear? It annoys me when I see the service we offer our customers sometimes. Equally though, I’ll defend the railway when people spout utter rubbish about how things are during disruption etc. One example, which is obviously being discussed a lot at the moment due to the time of year, and the recent Salisbury accident is “leaves on the line” (as the media usually caption it). So many people commenting on it but who really have absolutely no idea how it affects the railway.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Why should a 5 out of 7 day roster never give 2 consecutive days off ? In fact, with creative rostering, perhaps 4 consecutive days off could sometimes be given with single days off at other times. But I still believe the cost issue to be a major obstacle.
In another topic a contributor stated that South West Trains had incorporated Sundays into the working week years ago, and as this interested and intrigued me I enquired how that was achieved; But, as far as I saw, reply came there none.
"any 5" doesn't guarantee the two days off are together, in fact it implies that the opposite is likely.
thenorthern
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At the moment there are a lot of attacks on the railway by people who advocate nationalisation. Many of the claims by proponents of this are false and I will call out false claims about privately owned railway companies if people say them. Under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of Labour there were a lot of false claims about the railways most notably Traingate.
One thing I always remember is the railways are run by professionals who while sometimes they make mistakes on the whole they know what they are doing. In other words I know an angry passenger and his mates wouldn't be able to replace a mile of track in half the time it takes qualified professionals.
One thing I always remember is the railways are run by professionals who while sometimes they make mistakes on the whole they know what they are doing. In other words I know an angry passenger and his mates wouldn't be able to replace a mile of track in half the time it takes qualified professionals.
Ridercross
Member
Realyy finding it impossible to defend West Midlands Railway at the moment.
Yes, they have staffing issues, but the last 3 trains from Birmingham to Kidderminster have been cancelled tonight. The last train of the night is now leaving Brum. I am sure that there are replacement coaches, but I can find no details of timeasof these. They will of course be considerably slower than the all stations evening trains.
Yes, they have staffing issues, but the last 3 trains from Birmingham to Kidderminster have been cancelled tonight. The last train of the night is now leaving Brum. I am sure that there are replacement coaches, but I can find no details of timeasof these. They will of course be considerably slower than the all stations evening trains.
trainophile
Established Member
Glad someone has finally brought up the shambles that is WMR currently. We arrived at Worcester Foregate Street today at 1600, expecting to catch the 1630 to Hereford... CANCELLED. As was the 1735. There was no guarantee that the 1806 would actually run, although thankfully it did, but the subsequent two hourly services were also cancelled. Any operator who thinks it is acceptable to cancel two consecutive hourly services is not showing any degree of consideration for the passengers relying on those trains. We finally got home 1.5 hours late, having missed the last bus and no taxis in the rank so had a two mile walk home with luggage.
Living here in Hereford we have two main operators, WMR and TfW, and they are both currently offering an unacceptable level of service. GWR is good but infrequent, and only goes to Paddington.
Indeed, but the same could have been said about the pro-privatisation brigade in the 1990's, with their false claims about BR being "deeply inefficient" (as an example), so it swings both ways.
thenorthern
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This is very true, also there have been several awful companies that have been involved in our railways since privatisation most notably Railtrack PLC.
Indeed. Some very decent ones a well that even I (a privatisation sceptic) have been sad to see go.
Will always remember an experienced guard telling me that he hadn't had an on time train in over 2 years, he made a point of making sure he was delayed. With the amount of slack in some of the timetables thats not an easy thing to do. Does make you question the motivation mind, the amount of effort some people put into being useless is staggering. Would be a lot easier to just do the job properly half the time
There's a lot of armchair experts that know better that professional staff with decades of experience, the railways are very fragmented and as a result it has very poor communication.
I know from experience leaves on the line is a lot more complicated that people think, it depends on the route / if the rhtt train has been / the weather has a huge impact/ the type of traction is a major factor.
Like you say the staff on the front line get the brunt of the abuse, but most the time they are the last to know what's actually going on. The tocs control inform the traincrew last if there's disruption, today for example Wolverhampton is chaotic and I'm glad is my day off today.
That mentality is something I’ve thankfully never encountered on the bits of the railway I’ve worked on. Completely unfathomable as being late inevitably means shorter breaks, getting home later, and is generally a lot more stressful than running on time!
Well this is an area I also struggle to defend the railway - the shocking nature of a Sunday timetable in huge swathes of the country.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Where I will defend the railways is when horse ess aitch eye tea is spoken by the mainstream media after incidents such as Salisbury tunnel etc.
hooverboy
On Moderation
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The railway has to move with the times, I'm afraid.
In years gone by it was customary for Sundays to be totally sacrosanct, and for everybody to work half a day on Wednesdays. It used to be for the purposes of attending mass or some such.
I'm not at all disputing that there should be enhancements for "abnormal hours" working, but the TOC's are perfectly within their rights to profile their workforce to see who wishes to work what, before enticements or enhancements get dished out.
Only when those options have been exhausted should they be looking to pay premium rates to get "unsociable hours" rosters organised
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61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
The question shouldn't really be "When should we defend the railways?" It should be "How should we defend the railways?". That means acknowledgement of failings rather than a steadfast attitude that the railways can do no wrong.
For example the thread in the disputes section about passengers being locked in at Blackburn station, had some posters condemning the mistake without any mitigation, and others seemingly suggesting that such an event is just one of those things, and that even investigating how it happened was tantamount to the station staff being hanged, drawn and quartered.
Then there's the armchair experts suggesting that those people should have simply walked along the tracks to escape.
When things go wrong (as they inevitably do from time to time) the impetus should always be on learning lessons rather than apportioning blame. If there is blame to apportion, it can wait.
For example the thread in the disputes section about passengers being locked in at Blackburn station, had some posters condemning the mistake without any mitigation, and others seemingly suggesting that such an event is just one of those things, and that even investigating how it happened was tantamount to the station staff being hanged, drawn and quartered.
Then there's the armchair experts suggesting that those people should have simply walked along the tracks to escape.
When things go wrong (as they inevitably do from time to time) the impetus should always be on learning lessons rather than apportioning blame. If there is blame to apportion, it can wait.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
where is that like button? 10/10 exactly
jfowkes
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I think it's important to separate "defending the railway" from "explaining the railway".
You can explain why things are a certain way without that being an attempt at excusing it. Sometimes people mistake such explanations for a defence and think people don't care or don't want improvement.
You can explain why things are a certain way without that being an attempt at excusing it. Sometimes people mistake such explanations for a defence and think people don't care or don't want improvement.
But in some eyes, explanations are just "excuses".
I have posted similar to this in the Blackburn station thread.
There does seem to be the usual suspects who always defend the railways and make everything out to be the passengers fault and never the railway's fault.
For example on the Blackburn station thread there were posters saying the staff at Blackburn had every right to lock the station up and totally disregard any passengers on the final train still to arrive. I like to think it was a a simple mistake rather than the staff member doing it on purpose, but to see some posters saying that the station staff have a life outside of work so they were "entitled' to lock the station up meaning the passengers were locked in was astounding.
And then to see some posters saying they should have risked injury by clambering over the tracks to an alternative exit, (I've never been to Blackburn so I don't know if there was an alternative exit) but then I think one poster actually posted the passengers should have walked through a dark train tunnel for almost a mile before finding an alternative exit!
The mind boggles, and I only hope these posters don't work on the railways as just posting those comments proved they don't care at all about other passengers.
The rail network isn't perfect by all means and likewise it's not totally useless, I don't agree with it being totally bashed and people saying "excuses" when things go wrong but also I don't agree with people just making out the railway is perfect in every way.
There does seem to be the usual suspects who always defend the railways and make everything out to be the passengers fault and never the railway's fault.
For example on the Blackburn station thread there were posters saying the staff at Blackburn had every right to lock the station up and totally disregard any passengers on the final train still to arrive. I like to think it was a a simple mistake rather than the staff member doing it on purpose, but to see some posters saying that the station staff have a life outside of work so they were "entitled' to lock the station up meaning the passengers were locked in was astounding.
And then to see some posters saying they should have risked injury by clambering over the tracks to an alternative exit, (I've never been to Blackburn so I don't know if there was an alternative exit) but then I think one poster actually posted the passengers should have walked through a dark train tunnel for almost a mile before finding an alternative exit!
The mind boggles, and I only hope these posters don't work on the railways as just posting those comments proved they don't care at all about other passengers.
The rail network isn't perfect by all means and likewise it's not totally useless, I don't agree with it being totally bashed and people saying "excuses" when things go wrong but also I don't agree with people just making out the railway is perfect in every way.
Threads like those should not be used as a barometer for 'all things railway' They tend to be very emotive and act as an echo chamber for those whose viewpoints are more polarised.
So taking this point here in isolation. Staff members will get to their end of duty or designated time to lock up and indeed lock up the station. That is their job. Most likely a quick station sweep and then lock up and leave. In isolation this is the railway working as intended. So in isolation, the poster was right to state that staff have every right to go home at their booked time. However, due to the incident in question something clearly went wrong...
This is where an emotion is being attached and people go on the attack or on the defensive. Assumptions are being made and blame is being assigned. Staff have gone from doing their job to all out assaulting the passengers rights, taking them hostage, and not caring a whit.
Something went wrong. In the absence of any facts of why and what, everything just becomes subjective and pretty much moot.
Which is the problem with those kind of threads. A simple comment gets taken out of all proportion and assumptions get made.
The railway isn't perfect and neither are people. Sometimes things just go wrong. How it gets dealt with or how it should lead to change is important.
From my experience in this forum I would also add that there is a high degree of tolerance and acceptance of those who use it to air their sometimes very anti-railway views - and this by no means a bad thing as it does prevent echo chamber syndrome, and adds balance to discussions.
But it's also quite unusual for that, I can think of a few other industry-specific forums where anything "anti" gets very short shrift indeed.
There are certainly plenty of reasonable and middle-of-the-road posts made here, but as with everything in life, the extreme ones (both on attack and defence) are the ones more often remembered.
But it's also quite unusual for that, I can think of a few other industry-specific forums where anything "anti" gets very short shrift indeed.
There are certainly plenty of reasonable and middle-of-the-road posts made here, but as with everything in life, the extreme ones (both on attack and defence) are the ones more often remembered.
Can you qualify this? It's something I hear time and time again yet actual tangible feedback about why it's poor is often lacking. Having spent almost my entire railway career working in passenger information and having invested heavily in this space in the TOC where I work, I'm really keen to learn about the specifics. It's all too easy to throw the "information is poor" comment around but we need the detail to improve.
I've thought that for a little while that the railway struggles with this to a great degree. I suspect quite a lot of it is driven by, as with so much these days in the wider world, not being an easy to quantify metric. It's easy to measure and report on PPM for service group x over y period. Harder to quantify whether or not your providing good customer service. How do you accurately measure how comfortable someone was at the station? We have the National Passenger Survey but having filled several of them in myself now I wouldn't personally rate them for being the most accurate/useful metric plus it only tells yous what the people who are actually travelling thinking. Not what people who may only do one or two journeys a year or maybe did one journey a few years ago think.
But it's clear, in my view, that customer service isn't a priority.
Take your average conductor or train manager. The primary focus of all their training and supervision is their safety critical duties. And, rightly, this is important. They will very rarely need to use most of it (other than dispatch related items) but when they do need to do it we need to be 100% certain that they know what they're doing and can do it correctly and quickly. But (and I'm sure you all saw that coming!) what will they spend the majority of their time doing? Customer service. Checking and selling tickets, assisting passengers with reduced mobility, giving information and guidance during disruption, etc etc. Yet that sort of thing usually makes up only a fraction of their training and probably even less of their ongoing development. Why? Because it isn't a priority.
Or take customer services itself. Often outsourced (which is never a good sign!), usually paid peanuts (I seem to recall when VTEC did, to their credit, bring it back in house even team leaders were only paid around £20,000) and often woefully understaffed meaning it takes weeks to get a response. Then linked to the low pay (your pay peanuts you get...) and terrible training the response you get is often nonsensical and usually flat wrong. Plus it seems that their must be incentives not to deliver good customer service but to try and scrimp and save every last penny that they manage. The number of times that you'll get into a throw down argument about amounts of money which around under £10 total is remarkable. It would be far quicker and easier to just send whatever the sum is and be done with it. You just record it on your customer relations software to allow you to make sure someone isn't taking the proverbial and then you can push back on the repeat offenders and just send random passenger number x their £8 taxi fare that they got when their train was cancelled or the £4 delay repay that they say their entitled to. Instead of getting into a bareknuckle boxing fight which just leaves the passenger disgruntled that the railway "stiffed them" over less than a £10. Why? Presumably because it isn't a priority.
I think a lot of this falls on the DfT not just the TOCs (though they're have their own blame to shoulder). If you've got your contracting organisation giving you the metrics they want you to report on and the targets for those metrics to meet what do you do? Focus on the cuddly nice to have things or focus on whatever it is that hits those metrics? I think there's also a strong element of "well those poor sods will use these services come what may and passengers numbers have been rising for decades so what does it matter if we hack a few of them off by charging them again or quibbling over a fiver?" at play as well.
This isn't to say that there isn't good customer service on the railway because there is, often, excellent examples of staff providing tremendous customer service. The conductor who announces all the information they have about a delay and also walks down the train to speak to anyone concerned about their options for instance that I've seen first hand. Brilliant customer service.
That's quite apart from all the other fluffy things like comfy seats on the train and sufficient luggage space (DfT don't care about the seat but how much it costs and how many seats they can fit in the given length which drives the TOCs behaviour, assuming they're even involved in the specification!). Having trains which stop under the canopy rather than at the far end of the platform. Or even better having canopies which don't join up when a new bit of station is built! Etc etc.
The scene is Redcar Central managed by Northern. Two platforms, platform one for trains to Middlesbrough/Darlington and platform two for trains to Saltburn. Platform two can be used for trains to be sent back towards Middlesbrough in the event of disruption. Transpennine Express provide an hourly service which terminates and then heads back to Manchester Airport. There is a ticket office but it's only open in the morning and early afternoon. There are passenger information screens on both platforms along with a PA. The platforms are off-set so that passengers waiting on platform one are at least 60 - 80m away from where a train on platform 2 pulls to a stand.
Our train to Saltburn rolls into platform two and the train then sits there for ten minutes or so before the conductor comes on the PA and informs us that their a points failure at Saltburn so the train is being terminated here so please leave the train (most will have announced we're waiting at a red signal before this, it won't have been ten minutes of silence!). We all duly trudge off the train. The conductor apologies but has no information on how long the delay will be nor what alternative arrangements will be made (such as buses or taxis). The screens have no information about the delays or cancellations and simply shows the next train at platform two (which is not our train as that has vanished off the board) as being "On Time". It's the late in the afternoon so the ticket office is shut. The train then leaves empty back towards Middlesbrough forming the back working of the train which is now trapped at Saltburn. However it's empty because all the passengers for it are on platform one where the screens all still say that the train will be departing from platform one even though it's now actually departing from platform two. By now all the passengers have given up and made their own arrangements before finally a bus arrives sometime later to collect them but they never knew there was a bus so it leaves empty for all stations to Saltburn.
This is a scenario I've seen play out several times in recent years. The most egregious element of this, always to me anyway, seems to be the failure to have the platform change announced and I've mentioned this on several occasions. Including to a tame Controller at Northern Control that I know who themselves has flagged it up. As yet nothing has changed and trains still regularly leave passengers behind because they didn't spot that their train was on a a different platform (unless an enterprising conductors goes to collect them) as the train pulls up far enough away that even if the display says "Darlington" they won't be able to read it and, remember, all the time the PA and screens are confidently telling them that their train will be at platform one, the one they're stood on.
But the whole thing is a shambles of communication from start to finish in my view.
Hopefully you find this (extensive) document enlightening. It has a lot of detail. Yes its banded around a lot ("poor information") without realising just how complex and changing certain disruptive situations can be, but this work by the DfT / Transport Focus is quite useful. There are lots of examples, but for instance you don't know exactly how long Line A will be locked, so you send people via Line B which takes 45 minutes longer, and then Line A is opened 15 minutes later. That's just one of those things.
I do find it might be subejctive to "emotive bias" though - nobody wants to be delayed so when you are, you then become understandably frustrated and therefore any comment on the information given is clouded by your general worse mood at having being delayed.
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