When to defend and when not to defend the railway

[bakerstreet]

Serious question aimed at those in the industry

Sometimes I think there is a sense from those outside the railway that it operates a vital service to the public but at best is not passenger focused enough, and at worst demonstrates absolute distain for the people who use it. On these forums critics of the railway are often very strong, perhaps because they are strong supporters of the mode and love travelling by train. Or perhaps because they’re making mischief.

On the other side those who speak from within the industry are as strongly defensive as the strength of criticism they get, even though this sometimes ends in the defending of very unattractive practices and sometimes in defence of the indefensible.
But who would not try to defend the industry they work in from attack?

So to those in the railway, can you say what you think the railway is really good at and what you really can’t defend and are embarrassed about.

However many positives points you give please give the same amount of indefensible ones too!

 

[al78]

But who would not try to defend the industry they work in from attack?

If the grievences are logically sound, it would be illogical to dismiss them. It is possible there are people who are so closely involved with the railway that it has become a part of their identity, so an attack on the railway is taken as an attack on their identity which provokes retaliation regardless, but that is an emotional, not a logical response.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But who would not try to defend the industry they work in from attack?

I certainly don't automatically defend the IT industry nor my employer if I don't believe they are genuinely in the right (though I don't discuss my employment in public forums). That's called being a "yes man", and I don't consider it a positive trait. Sometimes criticism is unjustified, in which case responding to it with facts as to why it's unjustified is the right way. But sometimes it needs to be taken on board.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I am not a railway person per se but my brother is and my grandfather was. I love the railways I really do. However, they seem very slow and resistant to change. Canute could not hold back the tide and neither can railways. I don't usually attack the railways but I do defend them whenever I can.

 

[The Planner]

We tend to be very good at reacting and fixing things, but we lack in planning and delivery. I don't think anyone would deny the railway is glacial in the way it moves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We tend to be very good at reacting and fixing things, but we lack in planning and delivery. I don't think anyone would deny the railway is glacial in the way it moves.

To be fair airlines are the same. Look at all those dot matrix printed loading sheets for example!

 

[Horizon22]

From my personal perspective here's a few things off the top of my head I would suggest, but no doubt others will disagree!

Positives:

• Personal customer assistance on-board: This is normally from crew on-board. The vast majority of people actually mentioning that crew are lovely, professional and helpful on-board, especially during disruption
• Safety: There's a huge safety culture on the railway that other industries could learn from. This has only really existed since the late 90s
• Union strength & collaboration: Okay this could also be a negative, but the unions are well-embedded in the railway. In the vast majority of cases, unions and management work well together and make changes that are good compromises and mean a workforce that doesn't feel degraded. People want to work in the industry and it has a good family feel if you are there.
• Passenger growth: Prior to Covid, the railways had done a very good job in encouraging people to use the service, despite some of its failings. Some of this was because of a lack of other options (i.e alternatives to rail commuting in London), but still has some merit.
• Good reactive skills: The railway has got fairly good from an operational perspective on responding to an incident accordingly and fixing it fairly effectively. However communication around this isn't always fantastic (see below)

Negatives:

• Communication & Disruption information. This is a big one. It could be communication with passengers who have pre-booked and there's an known issue but they don't find out until the day, or passengers confused during disruption. This requires quality information and on-the ball control teams but sometimes information falls by the way-side. It's also incredibly difficult to get right everywhere at the same time. I do hear of experiences that make me cringe though.
• Fares: For most people they are too expensive, or an utterly confusing mess. This can put people who may want to use the railway off. In an ideal world something like split ticketing shouldn't even exist.
• Fragmentation: Either between NR and TOCs or between TOCs, the lack of unified process can be very frustrating no doubt to passengers who wonder why company A can do something and company B can't / wont. Perhaps GBR will solve this issue, but will still take time.
• Slow moving / resistant to change: Whether it's adapting to wider economic, social or cultural trends or understanding the need to change, the railway can move very slowly. 3rd parties have implemented aspects in a quarter of time while official railway systems remain useless (see NRE vs RTT or Trainline as an example) Strategy is too suspectible to political whims and there are other things that are no-brainers (7-day working week) which need to be applied sooner rather than later. Unions can also be part of this resistance which can be quite frustrating.
• Training & Complexity: The railway has got increasingly complex in certain matters (fares especially). Training about these complexities in junior roles is sometimes lacking which can come across as poor customer service. I feel training across the board (in non safety-critical roles) could be much approved beyond what is seen as the acceptable minimum standard.

Many of these positives / negatives are not all within the control of the railway - various governments, the DfT and socio-economic trends have caused some of these things to become more / less prominent over time. But it is the same as any other big industry (e.g. NHS / education) that has to work alongside the political powers of the time to achieve action.

 

[Irascible]

But who would not try to defend the industry they work in from attack?

Assuming you mean "who would not try to blindly defend the industry they work in from attack" -

People who don't really care about it beyond it providing their income. I'll defend any industry ( or anything I remotely care about ) from *unwarranted* attack, but that impliies I've examined the accusation & decided for whatever reason it's not a good argument. It can be a decision I've reached while reading the accusation, but it's at least considered.

I take attacks on the NHS very poorly ( having grown up around NHS staff from bottom to .. middle, I guess & seen what they have to put up with ) but that doesn't mean I think there aren't major issues with it either.

 

[bakerstreet]

Assuming you mean "who would not try to blindly defend the industry they work in from attack" -

I meant more reasonable defence. Eg it’s out of the railway’s control (eg Govt edict) or yes this happens but for reasons which are explained. (Eg limits of technology, or something worse would happen if this was changed (eg standardising ticket restrictions)
I didn’t mean things like valid tickets being refused or rude unprofessional customer service etc.

 

[hooverboy]

This is actually quite a difficult question to answer,and all parties, politicians,unions and TOC's or ROSCO's have to take their share of criticism and kudos in equal measure since privatisation.

what's improved:
1)Customer service without a doubt.Much friendlier and more positive environment onboard.
2)Rolling stock,For the most part TOC's have invested,albeit for operational efficiencies rather than capacity increases.Didn't help pre privatisation that there was a dearth of investment after the sprinters.
3)On board catering and station facilities.No need to recant the furious fun-poking at the british rail sandwich.
4)Industrial relations.Not one for the die hard union fans in here but back in the 70's disputes went national,these days localised disruption is a pain but there are alternatives.

What's not improved:
1) Rolling stock.yes, I did mention that above, but stock ordered did not provide adequate increase in capacity or comfort.
2)Overly complex and expensive fair structure.
3)Lack of integration in fare structure. with 20+ TOC's this is a nightmare. was better under 1990's sectorisation.
4)lack of visibility for TOC's and franchises due to government diktat and short franchise duration
5)neglect of stock by franchisee when end of lease of stock is due.
6)orders of new stock being done ad-hoc by train companies with no regard to inter-operability with other units on the network

 

[6Gman]

• Fares: For most people they are too expensive, or an utterly confusing mess. This can put people who may want to use the railway off. In an ideal world something like split ticketing shouldn't even exist.
• 
  
• Slow moving / resistant to change: Whether it's adapting to wider economic, social or cultural trends or understanding the need to change, the railway can move very slowly. 3rd parties have implemented aspects in a quarter of time while official railway systems remain useless (see NRE vs RTT or Trainline as an example) Strategy is too suspectible to political whims and there are other things that are no-brainers (7-day working week) which need to be applied sooner rather than later. Unions can also be part of this resistance which can be quite frustrating.

As I understand it the resistance to Sunday being placed in the standard working week comes from the TOCs (on grounds of cost) rather than from the unions.

And its implementation would put further pressure on fares.

(For the avoidance of doubt, and for what it's worth - which is very little, I support a seven day working week.)

 

[choochoochoo]

As I understand it the resistance to Sunday being placed in the standard working week comes from the TOCs (on grounds of cost) rather than from the unions.

And its implementation would put further pressure on fares.

(For the avoidance of doubt, and for what it's worth - which is very little, I support a seven day working week.)

Think the unions are for Sundays inside. The TOCs would have to recruit more drivers. Equals more members for the union. Equals more subs.

 

[Moonshot]

What are we good at...........getting a huge load of passengers from A to B when everything lines up.

What are we rubbish at........information provided to passengers during disruption. Its awful. Also the ticket offer is simply diabolical.....just way too confusing.

 

[w0033944]

Reading the Salisbury accident thread as an enthusiast layman, there are plenty of people lining up to dismiss any idea that is being proposed or existing available approach to the factors which are presumed by RAIB to have been proximal to the accident, and this seems from my perspective to be a "nothing to see here, move along" instinctive response to the notion that there is a problem.

 

[Horizon22]

As I understand it the resistance to Sunday being placed in the standard working week comes from the TOCs (on grounds of cost) rather than from the unions.

And its implementation would put further pressure on fares.

(For the avoidance of doubt, and for what it's worth - which is very little, I support a seven day working week.)

It is a bit of both which is why I said "partly". More than anything there's a lot of ambivalence towards the whole thing - it needs some real impotus to move forward but far too many seem happy with the status quo. Except passengers of course.

 

[43066]

It is a bit of both which is why I said "partly". More than anything there's a lot of ambivalence towards the whole thing - it needs some real impotus to move forward but far too many seem happy with the status quo. Except passengers of course.

I’m not sure it’s really right to say it’s “a bit of both”. Both major unions are in favour of Sundays inside (or at least don’t oppose it). It’s certainly true that there are plenty of railstaff whose Sundays are outside and who wouldn’t want to bring them inside, but that isn’t the same thing as the unions themselves providing resistance.

 

[Devonish]

I think the main frustration for rail workers at all levels, is that the public and especially the press think that operating the railways in the UK "should be simple/easy" where in fact it is incredibly complex and things which a layman think can be done easily/quickly usually cannot. The structure of the railway system in this country since 1997 has of course contributed more complexity to operating the network.

 

[Deepgreen]

My career was on 'the railway' (a term which has far less meaning now, given the fragmentation that has occurred). I was always ready to criticise what I felt to be wrong about the 'industry' to outsiders. At the very root though, the mode has always been close to my heart for its relative 'green-ness' conpared with most others. I will always defend the mode on that basis but it has suffered greatly from privatisation, which, far from introducing greater efficiency and quality, has simply created a mess of subsidised profit-making and therefore, paradoxically, waste.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

On the other side those who speak from within the industry are as strongly defensive as the strength of criticism they get, even though this sometimes ends in the defending of very unattractive practices and sometimes in defence of the indefensible.

I genuinely don't think that's how this forum works.

The railway staff who post here are remarkably level-headed and honest about the failings of the industry. The most "defensive" postings tend to come from a small number of people who don't work for the railway, but yet who have something approaching contempt for the more excitable enthusiasts.

 

[Bald Rick]

In defence:

The professionalism, care and “call of duty” that the majority of railway staff demonstrate on a daily basis to deliver a fine service for passengers and freight users. Particularly in a crisis.


Undefendable:

The minority of staff who don’t want to care, and/or are in it only for the (very good) money.


I don’t think the railway is unusual in having these two categories of people - I’m sure we all know people at work who happily go the extra mile, and those that don’t. However the nature of the rail industry is that those that don’t often do so (don’t so?) rather visibly.

 

[theageofthetra]

We tend to be very good at reacting and fixing things, but we lack in planning and delivery. I don't think anyone would deny the railway is glacial in the way it moves.

Spot on. It is entirely reactive imho.

 

[Starmill]

As I understand it the resistance to Sunday being placed in the standard working week comes from the TOCs (on grounds of cost) rather than from the unions.

And its implementation would put further pressure on fares.

(For the avoidance of doubt, and for what it's worth - which is very little, I support a seven day working week.)

I think that the key point is that the companies and the government would like the staff to work the extra hours without extra pay. Similarly to at East Coast Trains Ltd for example.

 

[matt_world2004]

I've noticed there is often the trend to defend the indefensible here such as operational screw ups or reports taken for people with valid tickets or using advance tickets on another service during disruption. Or where a wheelchair user has been overcarried because booked assistance has failed to show up.

 

[43066]

I've noticed there is often the trend to defend the indefensible here such as operational screw ups or reports taken for people with valid tickets or using advance tickets on another service during disruption. Or where a wheelchair user has been overcarried because booked assistance has failed to show up.

Or to put another way, you’ll get thread on here about some hyperbolic claim in the press, often accompanied by an incomplete mobile phone video showing some purported mistreatment of a member of the public. A number of posters will then rush to judgment and start calling for members of staff to be sacked before the facts are known. Anybody calling for a more nuanced approach is accused of defending the indefensible and their posts end up being lost in a sea of righteous indignation.

I don’t think I’ve ever once seen a member of staff on here actually defending a mistake, such as a wheelchair passenger being over carried.

 

[A0]

I think that the key point is that the companies and the government would like the staff to work the extra hours without extra pay. Similarly to at East Coast Trains Ltd for example.

Is it really "extra hours without extra pay" or instead simply having a 5 day working week where the 2 "days off" are any point in that week - not limited to Saturday and/or Sunday?

A better question in this day and age perhaps should be why on the railways is weekend working subject to any form of pay premium?

Working public holidays? Yes, fine with that having a premium. Same for overtime. But the rail network is in the most part a 20x7x363 day a week service now.

 

[Falcon1200]

Think the unions are for Sundays inside. The TOCs would have to recruit more drivers. Equals more members for the union. Equals more subs.

Also equals increased cost to the industry for running the same service.

Is it really "extra hours without extra pay" or instead simply having a 5 day working week where the 2 "days off" are any point in that week - not limited to Saturday and/or Sunday?

Yes. Instead of working 5 days, plus Sunday, work any 5 days of the 7 - But still receive the same take home pay ? Unless the Unions and staff are prepared to sacrifice their rostered Sunday shift pay, which I doubt.

 

[LowLevel]

In defence:

The professionalism, care and “call of duty” that the majority of railway staff demonstrate on a daily basis to deliver a fine service for passengers and freight users. Particularly in a crisis.


Undefendable:

The minority of staff who don’t want to care, and/or are in it only for the (very good) money.


I don’t think the railway is unusual in having these two categories of people - I’m sure we all know people at work who happily go the extra mile, and those that don’t. However the nature of the rail industry is that those that don’t often do so (don’t so?) rather visibly.

I'd go with that. Some people wear being a useless, objectionable **** as a badge of honour.

 

[ComUtoR]

So to those in the railway, can you say what you think the railway is really good at

Good days pay for a good days work.

and what you really can’t defend

Railway culture

 

[adc82140]

I take attacks on the NHS very poorly ( having grown up around NHS staff from bottom to .. middle, I guess & seen what they have to put up with ) but that doesn't mean I think there aren't major issues with it either.

I work in the NHS, and a lot of criticism is well justified. It's inefficient, and as it's nigh on impossible to sack anyone, it carries a fair amount of dead weight in its staffing. Unfortunately it's now considered socially unacceptable to say anything against the church of the NHS and its "heroes" (ugh, if only people knew what problems within the health service that word causes).

To bring this back on topic, for years British Rail was the butt of every cheap comedian's jokes. And often probably deserved. This is still in the public psyche, even though things have moved on a lot. The railways are seen as something to poke fun at. Perhaps the events of this week will help change that.

 

[wobman]

There seems to be lots of misinformation on how most TOCs staff work, most TOCs have gone to a 4 day 35hr week for the driving grade.
So the drivers at many tocs work a 4 day week over a 6 day working week, with Sundays as overtime. Some tocs have Sunday in the working week, to change the drivers original T&Cs the staff got a pay premium.

Drivers at many tocs work Sundays as committed overtime I work 1 in 3 Sundays, other depots only work 1 in 8 at the same toc.
Sundays need drivers to volunteer aswell to cover the work and that's why there's a Sunday premium to encourage staff to volunteer to work on a non working day.

On the forum I get the impression drivers a damned if you do and damned if you dont for working Sundays. If you do work (being greedy) and not volunteering (being selfish). Tocs prefer this method as its cheaper than having Sundays in the working week
Each TOC has different terms and conditions. I personally think the One thing GBR should look at is one set of T&Cs across the industry, it would make the industry far more efficient.
Most tocs have different T&Cs at each depot, this causes all kinds of rostering problems and mistakes.