What would you do?

[Respite]

As for a fire on board, one would have thought that stopping the train immediately would be better, as it would remove the huge draft which would otherwise help the fire spread.

So you pull the Emergancy chord, train is doing 100mph say.. Brakes apply, full emergency. Half a mile later the train comes to a halt, right on top of a very limited clearance Viaduct, or single bore tunnel. Driver & guard attempt to evac through gangway doors (if the train has them), probably many people suffer burns & smoke inhalation, some may even perish as the gangway doors feed as many people as possible through there limited capacity.

But if the driver had been made aware of the fire by communication instead he/she could of stopped the train in an area that there route knowledge would tell them would be safe & quick to evac.
In other words for gods sake dont pull the E chord for a fire ever!

The 175's I drive have an overide for the E chord, but the rest 150,153 & 158 don't. As an aside, all the units engines are fitted with Pyro chords around them. These set off the fire extingushers, shut down & cut fuel to that actual engine. 153's are fitted with fire system overide that allows the driver to disable the fuel cut & engine shut down for the very purpose of making sure the driver can stop the train not in a tunnel/viaduct etc.

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't often put my foot down, but I think I will in this instance.

We've now got two current mainline drivers saying precisely the same thing about pulling the cord. Why are there still folk who insist in arguing with what we're telling you? We've explained ourselves perfectly well and given sound reasons for not pulling the cord based on operational experience, traction and route knowledge and the training that we've received. We actually happen know what we're talking about on this topic.

Rant over.

one TN

 

[Craig]

We've now got two current mainline drivers saying precisely the same thing about pulling the cord. Why are there still folk who insist in arguing with what we're telling you?

Because some trainspotters are vastly more knowledgeable about railway operations than two mainline drivers will ever be, obviously... :roll:



Or at least they think they are

 

[adambro]

We've now got two current mainline drivers saying precisely the same thing about pulling the cord. Why are there still folk who insist in arguing with what we're telling you?

A good argument as been made for hesitating to pull the cord in some circumstances but if information and equipment on trains is based around the idea of passengers pulling the cord in an emergency then this is something the rail industry needs to address by upgrading trains to enable drivers to override an alarm and fitting devices to enable passengers to communicate with the driver.

If a passenger notices an emergency they will pull the cord, if this isn't what they should do then alternatives should be provided and information be revised. You should be blaming your company not passengers.

 

[Max]

If a passenger notices an emergency they will pull the cord, if this isn't what they should do then alternatives should be provided and information be revised. You should be blaming your company not passengers.

Exactly. There is clearly a huge gap in knowledge between what passengers know and what they should know. Passengers obviously need to be made aware that pulling the chord isn't the best idea!

 

[Metroland]

Well I’m going to agree with one TN, and yes I do know what I’m talking about as well.

Bringing a train to an immediate stop sounds appetising, but as it has been pointed out bringing it to a halt just anywhere (say by pulling the cord) is sometimes a bad idea. It is better left to the Driver who has extensive route knowledge. Cleary on older (say heritage) trains pulling the cord would bring the train to a halt anyway.

Likewise, while throwing all signals back in front of a train can be tempting from line control point of view, again, there are bad places to stop trains - which would include viaducts, some cuttings, tunnels, in the path of other trains. For example, if another train runs by a signal, it is not *always* best to bring another train to a halt by throwing back, because you could put that train you are trying to stop directly into the path of another. Sometimes diversion or letting the train run on a little more is a better move. EACH situation needs weighing up differently, and it doesn’t half **** me off the self proclaimed experts in the media etc musing over what they would do in a similar situation with seconds to think.

In an emergency you should stay calm and follow instructions of staff where they are given. Jumping out should only be done where there is a danger to life and no other option, but remember the guy at Maidenhead that jumped out of a burning HST and got struck by a train coming the other way? The railway is a dangerous environment and getting out might be more risky than stopping in.

If anything endangers the train the train crew should be informed.

All grades of staff should contact train crew in an emergency.

The driver should inform the signaller at the first possible opportunity to anything than endangers the line.

 

[91101]

Exactly. There is clearly a huge gap in knowledge between what passengers know and what they should know. Passengers obviously need to be made aware that pulling the chord isn't the best idea!

Without wantingto pick a fight....you were the one advocating pulling the chord no matter what!!

I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree with this. Think about it - if it's a fire then it's an emergency. The quickest way to alert staff to the situation is to pull the emergency chord, it's what it's there for. You wouldn't just move away from a fire in a building, you'd activate the fire alarms.

 

[Tom B]

If a passenger notices an emergency they will pull the cord, if this isn't what they should do then alternatives should be provided and information be revised. You should be blaming your company not passengers.

Indeed - since it is there with a big notice saying "In emergency, pull cord to stop train" - it is what passengers universally recognise as What To Do In An Emergency.

Also, how exactly do you get in touch with the staff? On an intercity train there's going to be staff wandering about maybe, but on a DMU chances are the guard will be in the back cab and the driver in the front - and is banging on the cab door going to make them want to come out? For all they know you could be a drunken football lout.

 

[Metroland]

Most of those handles activate an alarm to the driver or guard, rather than stop the train - normally referred to as 'Passcomm' .

 

[91101]

Only on newer build stock, thats the point that oneTN is tryingto get accross!

 

[Metroland]

The overriding point is that a little common sense is used. What is actually achieved by pulling the cord? The idea of the notice is should the train need to be stopped in an emergency, this a way of doing it. Most carriages fitted with those sorts of alarms were those that could have a door open leaving the station, where clearly the train needs to be stopped.

Are there better ways to alert staff to other emergencies? For instance, if there is a fight on board, stopping the train could result in the train being stuck miles from nowhere with no police attention, when the guard or driver could phone ahead and alert the police. In fact. pulling the cord in that instance is the very worst thing you can do, unless someone is in danger by the motion of the train. Passengers may be liable to jump out or start running along the tracks, and run the risk of being knocked down.

A fire, really should be put out immediately, hence why there are fire extinguishers. A derailment will bring the train to a stand anyway or alert the crew most of the time.

There is no prescriptive way of dealing with every emergency, and the people best trained to deal with it are the staff.

 

[Tom B]

Quite, but as I said how do you speak to the guard so you can get the train stopped?

 

[mrcheek]

frankly, it would seem that the entire railway industry needs to do something about its safety procedures.
Most trains do not have a facility for passengers to speak to the driver. all they have is a sign saying "In emergency, pull cord". so they need to change the wording.

"In emergency, pull cord. Unless its only a little emergency. or if we're in the middle of nowhere, because then we'll be stuck. so only pull the cord if you dont mind being stuck in the middle of nowhere for hours while help arrives. In fact, you had better weigh up the consequences before pulling the cord. Because if you don't pull it, and the train keeps on going, it can be a long way to the next scheduled stop. You might all get stuck on the train and burned to death. Thank you for travelling First Great Western"

 

[me123]

Of course, in a medical emergency, the train could move to a station if they're in an awkward location. Nothing to stop 'em if there's no way the ambulance can get to the train in the middle of Welwyn viauct. An addition stop at Welwyn North would make it easier to get the passenger off safely

 

[Max]

Without wantingto pick a fight....you were the one advocating pulling the chord no matter what!!

Erm, yes, exactly. That's why I was saying the TOCs clearly haven't made me aware of what I should actually be doing :roll:

 

[Metroland]

Quite, but as I said how do you speak to the guard so you can get the train stopped?

Well it really depends on the situation Tom and whether you have time to go looking for the guard and whether the train needs to be stopped. Clearly, if there is no time or prospect of finding the guard and the train has to be stopped, pull the cord.

 

[AlexS]

Pulling the chain on a vacuum braked train will not stop the train outright - it results in a reduction of vacuum to about 15 inches on the gauge from the normal 18-24 which will allow the driver to keep the train moving albeit with dragging brakes until he decides upon a safe place to bring it to a stand. It's mainly designed to bring it to the attention of the guard that something is amiss - if the guard decides it's serious enough and the driver hasn't noticed (say if the passcom has been pulled at the extreme rear of the train, it's effect on the driver's gauge will be much smaller than at the rear guards van, in theory), the guard can then apply the train brake and bring the train to a stand.

General good practice though even on trains without crew communication methods is for the guard not to interfere with the train movement unless he has good reason to suspect either the driver hasn't noticed the drop in vacuum, or unless he suspects something has happened to the loco crew to make them unable to respond to the drop.

So that deals with any fears or worries you may have as a TTI on the NYMR Max, and do remember at all times in an emergency the guard on your train is in charge of you, and the train itself. Guidance is the best policy here because the guard/footplate crew are trained in full emergency procedures for their train.

 

[Nick W]

And to make it even more complicated, there are times where it would be better to stop a train on fire in a tunnel rather than on land. Modern tunnels will have powerful fans that could blast the fire in one direction, while all passengers safely evacuate or remain on the other side of the train. Indeed this safety could allow the train staff to decouple and leave the burning section in the tunnel.

Also surely if a DMU is burning and it is stopped, the driver can isolate the burning engine before moving the train onwards to a station?

 

[me123]

^Problem there is that how do driver know what the problem is? You need the communication facility which many trains lack. So, should that be installed as a standard feature on all trains?

 

[mrcheek]

Im surprised that nobody so far has answered "start praying"....

You bunch of Godless heathens! all shall burn in hell for all eternity!!!!!!!

yeah, funny mood today.

 

[Coxster]

Not sure if it's of any interest to anyone, but Chiltern Railways do make a distinction between their stock in regards to an emergency. Here's the differences in the wording of their on-board safety posters:-

Classes 165/168 - "To stop the train, push the red alarm by the doors – in a station if practicable – and speak to the driver"
Class 121 - "To stop the train, pull the red alarm chain located above the doors. This will stop the train IMMEDIATELY so please use in a station if practical"

 

[Respite]

After some of these replys I think I'm just going to EBS every unit I get on. Well until I can sort out the removel of all the passcoms on the train anyway.

 

[me123]

Voyagers, I think, also have the buttons which is simply a communication cord. So, if you pushed the button and screamed "FIRE!!!" he shuld get the idea.

Think FSR Turbos are the smae, but most others on fleet just stop the train. I know this is the case on a 320 (someone pulled it once for a joke :roll:. Idiot. ).

 

[Century]

My intial reaction would be to get out of there asap but I'd be concerned about other rail traffic

 

[O L Leigh]

And to make it even more complicated, there are times where it would be better to stop a train on fire in a tunnel rather than on land. Modern tunnels will have powerful fans that could blast the fire in one direction, while all passengers safely evacuate or remain on the other side of the train. Indeed this safety could allow the train staff to decouple and leave the burning section in the tunnel.

What happens if you fan a fire? Does it get smaller or bigger?

Just as a matter of fact, a tunnel is one of the absolute worst places to stop a burning train. There is limited clearance to effect an evacuation, it's dark, it will quickly fill with smoke and fumes and the breeze will accelerate the fire.

one TN

 

[Metroland]

Plus most train tunnels do not have fan based tunnel ventilation. Some don't even have any at all! I'm sure there are others, but the only two I can think of that have some sort of fan based ventilation (which doesn't mean they have fans inside the tunnels themselves) is the channel tunnel and Heathrow airport tunnels. But you wouldn't draw into a tunnel because of:

1) Problems with evacuation. Restricted access in getting out of the train, especially in single track tunnels.
2) Problems with access for the emergency services and fire appliances. Most train tunnels do not have a water supply available inside
3) Problems with lighting, should the electrical circuits fail. Some tunnels do however have emergency lights.
4) Smoke inhalation.
5) Problems with mobile and fixed communications.
6) Less possibility of heat dissipation. The last big fire in summit tunnel melted brickwork, rails and collapsed oil tanks.

 

[paul1609]

Pulling the chain on a vacuum braked train will not stop the train outright - it results in a reduction of vacuum to about 15 inches on the gauge from the normal 18-24 which will allow the driver to keep the train moving albeit with dragging brakes until he decides upon a safe place to bring it to a stand. It's mainly designed to bring it to the attention of the guard that something is amiss - if the guard decides it's serious enough and the driver hasn't noticed (say if the passcom has been pulled at the extreme rear of the train, it's effect on the driver's gauge will be much smaller than at the rear guards van, in theory), the guard can then apply the train brake and bring the train to a stand.

General good practice though even on trains without crew communication methods is for the guard not to interfere with the train movement unless he has good reason to suspect either the driver hasn't noticed the drop in vacuum, or unless he suspects something has happened to the loco crew to make them unable to respond to the drop.

So that deals with any fears or worries you may have as a TTI on the NYMR Max, and do remember at all times in an emergency the guard on your train is in charge of you, and the train itself. Guidance is the best policy here because the guard/footplate crew are trained in full emergency procedures for their train.

When I drive steam trains I generally use 15 psi as the initial braking point and then drop the vacuum further if more retardation is required. Generally on the descending gradients between Tenterden and Rolvenden there is only one place where I will have the brakes released completely ie at more than 15 psi. in order to keep the train speed under control and within the speed limits.

I find controlling the vacuum brakes the most difficult part of driving especially stopping in exactly the right place on the platform with the brakes releasing just in time to prevent snatching.

 

[RJ]

And to make it even more complicated, there are times where it would be better to stop a train on fire in a tunnel rather than on land. Modern tunnels will have powerful fans that could blast the fire in one direction, while all passengers safely evacuate or remain on the other side of the train. Indeed this safety could allow the train staff to decouple and leave the burning section in the tunnel.

Also surely if a DMU is burning and it is stopped, the driver can isolate the burning engine before moving the train onwards to a station?

Letting people off a train whilst fanning oxygen towards a fire in an enclosed area is not a good idea... Even without the fire I wouldn't have said its advisable either way to evacuate in a tunnel polluted by diesel fumes. You see the roof on these things? They were white, once.

 

[rower40]

With nothing serious/relevant to add to the useful stuff above, my contribution is the following excerpt from dictionary dot com:

cord:a string or thin rope made of several strands braided, twisted, or woven together.
chord: Geometry. the line segment between two points on a given curve.

Sew it's knot a chommunication chord.

 

[O L Leigh]

I had a feeling someone wood bee chequeing up on the spelling.

Just glad I've bean getting mine write.

one TN