What will replace the Class 456's on Southern?

[D365]

So you think its a good use of money to over spec a fleet for something that might or might not happen in the future?

Ask an accountant* if the numbers work?

* Accountants run the railways now.

350/1 wasn't built for 110mph service but this has been achieved without too much pain, it seems...

 

[455driver]

350/1 wasn't built for 110mph service but this has been achieved without too much pain, it seems...

Just new traction motors* on the whole fleet (because of the increased rotational stresses at the higher speeds), not cheap at all!

*okay the old motors were reworked but it certainly wasnt cheap.

 

[Class377/5]

So you think its a good use of money to over spec a fleet for something that might or might not happen in the future?

Ask an accountant* if the numbers work?

* Accountants run the railways now.

Southern's about to tender for up to 64 110mph dv units for Thameslink. May not reach 110 but its there in case its needed in the future.

350/1 were a case of the body was over spec-ed and could met requirements for 110. We don't know the Electrostar would met that require nor the Adventra generation trains current.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Southern's about to tender for up to 64 110mph dv units for Thameslink. May not reach 110 but its there in case its needed in the future.

Southern tendering for more trains? How many trains have Southern bought and tendered for in the last couple of years? And aren't some units already being built for Thameslink?

Incidentially not saying they aren't just wondering what they are doing with all these trains!

 

[HSTEd]

They are apparently the proxy for all DfT new non-Thameslink/Crossrail EMUs at the moment.

377s for all!

 

[Chris125]

Southern tendering for more trains? How many trains have Southern bought and tendered for in the last couple of years? And aren't some units already being built for Thameslink?

Incidentially not saying they aren't just wondering what they are doing with all these trains!

Southern will effectively order them on behalf of the DfT, but where they actually go and when is less certain - their initial use may be on Thameslink services, but to what extent depends on how delayed the Thameslink order is and the effect that has on cascading 319's. That in turn requires a decision on where the 319's are going and if/when/how long they need for new traction equipment and other upgrades.

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

Southern tendering for more trains? How many trains have Southern bought and tendered for in the last couple of years? And aren't some units already being built for Thameslink?

Incidentially not saying they aren't just wondering what they are doing with all these trains!

The new order is for 29x four car 110mph dual voltage units with possible follow on order for another 35. They will be used to free up the 319's to go to the north west electrification.

Don't forget the 377/5 were ordered for the Southern franchise commitment of 10 cars via Balham. When the DfT stalled on the Thameslink deal they got permission to order the 26x 377/6 (to replace the 23x 377/5 & 3x 377/2). However the reason for the five car was in part to allow the 456's to transfer to SWT. The 377/7 order (8x five car) to fully cover along with the rumored transfer of 6x 377/2 to Thameslink.

So in effect its ordered 60 trains to actually only have 32 units (160 carriages) while losing 24 units (48 carriages) for a net increase of 112 carriages in total. Not as much as you'd think.

Whoever takes over the next franchise will see the 377's on Thameslink return to 'Southern' duties while the class 700's take over quite a few routes. A massive increase to be used to strength services post 2016.

 

[jopsuk]

presumably once the 700s come in and 377s go "back" to Southern it may be possible to retire or release the 455s and/or the 442s.

 

[Class377/5]

presumably once the 700s come in and 377s go "back" to Southern it may be possible to retire or release the 455s and/or the 442s.

I'd expect the 313's to be the first to go. Doubt the 455s will go as they will still be needed in fairly large numbers. However the 442s by that point may be finally considered past it or too much trouble.

I'd suggest that nothing will happen with the stock until the next Thameslink franchise comes up for renewal in the early 2020's when both the 313 GN fleet and anything ex BR will be looked at for removal with possible a order of various sizes to replace them.

 

[456]

we know about the class 456's going to south west trains. the question on my mind is the southern 455's going to swt too? southern seem to be investing a lot into these 377's and 376's.

 

[Manchester77]

Southern are acting on behalf of the DafT to purchase the rolling stock. The new orders will be going to FCC to allow 319s to be released to the north. After the first 700s enter service and the 377s are no longer needed for Thameslink we suspect that the 110 mph caipable 377s could go to GW for Thames valley services as they will require faster stock to operate since Crossrail will take the relief lines.

Someone can explain the DFT bit better but I think it's mostly correct

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Yes it has along with the other stations between Epsom and Dorking.

Hasn't this been done simply because SWT are moving to 10 cars via Epsom rather than for any Southern aspiration?

What's the latest on the Epsom station platform lengthening? (The line was closed over several weekends during the early summer for track replacement.) It's a while since I've been that way.

(Dorking station didn't require platform lengthening, as all three platforms there are already capable of taking 12 carriage trains.)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The blockades were all for track work; there will be a very short extension at the south end of the station for which preparations have just been made but I don't think actual construction has started yet. The platforms are already 9 car length and there is some leeway at the north end of the platforms.

Some signals will need moving slightly, so there may well be another blockade in due course.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hasn't this been done simply because SWT are moving to 10 cars via Epsom rather than for any Southern aspiration?

The CP4 10 car enhancements also explicitly include the SN route from Horsham to Victoria via Epsom. All the relevant stations are covered in more detail under SWT's scheme, but the extensions are available for SN as well...

 

[Minstral25]

[For those forum members less familiar with Southern Metro services, they frequently make 8 car services as 1x 455 and 2x 456. ]

A mix of the 2.

The routes* with 10 car platform lengthening will see just over 50% of rush hour services increased from 8 car to 10 car i.e. swap from 2x 455 or 1x 455 & 2x 456 to 2x 377/6 or /7.
The remaining 8 car services that are 455 & 2x 456 will become 2x 455


* Victoria via Streatham Common
Victoria via Streatham Hill
London Bridge via New Cross gate

So exactly which routes will remain as 1x or 2x 455 and can they be run in 12 car formation?

 

[jopsuk]

Even if the 455s were to move from Southern, the only routes they'd be suitable for at SWT are the ones about to be taken over by the reformed 458s. Reforming 455s as five car units isn't going to happen- even though 46 4 car units would form 36 five car units (with four spare carriages), of those 36 only ten could have two power cars, the rest would be rather underpowered with only one. And given the hassle of extending to 10 car operation, 12 car operation would be a no-no, on either Metro side.

 

[456]

Even if the 455s were to move from Southern, the only routes they'd be suitable for at SWT are the ones about to be taken over by the reformed 458s. Reforming 455s as five car units isn't going to happen- even though 46 4 car units would form 36 five car units (with four spare carriages), of those 36 only ten could have two power cars, the rest would be rather underpowered with only one. And given the hassle of extending to 10 car operation, 12 car operation would be a no-no, on either Metro side.

all the time I've been the seen 455's there never seemed to be formed of 12 cars. does anyone know why? at the moment the 450's are working the Windsor and Hounslow and Weybridge services, they could use the extra 455's from southern to run this services. the 450's are no good on the Hounslow line. when its a Saturday the Hounslow loop service is mostly on time because the 455's are providing the service. the guards seem to take there time opening the doors on the 450's as though don't care if there on time or not

 

[swt_passenger]

all the time I've been the seen 455's there never seemed to be formed of 12 cars. does anyone know why?

They are not provided with public through gangways or any form of SDO or indeed Unit Deselect (aka UDS, like the Desiros currently use).

(This is why on the main suburban side where they normally operate all the platforms are being extended - SDO will never be possible on the 455s/456s.)

So as there are no 12 car platforms for them to call at on their normal routes, 12 car trains cannot be normally operated.

However SWT have run them in service on the mainline routes as 12 car during weather disruption, but only where all calls were 12 car length.

 

[jopsuk]

I seriosuly doubt that the guards "don't care if they're on time or not". But it's the Windsor and Hounslow services that the 5/10 car 458/5s will be working. Having spent a fair bit of money on the 458s, they'll not want to displace them in a hurry.

Meanwhile, on the routes 455s currently run, platforms are only just now being extended to allow them to run with a 456 in 10-car formation. They don't run in 12-car formation because they wouldn't fit the stations (including Waterloo)

 

[456]

I didn't know the 458's would do the Windsor line as well as the reading line. I have been hearing rumours about swt bringing back the reading via Hounslow service. that would certainly be useful on rugby days.

 

[swt_passenger]

I didn't know the 458's would do the Windsor line as well as the reading line. I have been hearing rumours about swt bringing back the reading via Hounslow service. that would certainly be useful on rugby days.

The 458/5 conversions aren't intended for the Reading Line, they have always been planned to be used on the routes currently operated by the HC 450/5s.

The Reading service is going to be run by normal spec 450s in 8 car formation, happening progressively as the 458/5s move over to the Windsors and Hounslow loop after conversion. Extension of platforms on the Virginia Water to Reading section of the route is proposed but not yet confirmed, but will not be done for about 5 years anyway.

I think your rumour is just that, all they've said so far is that there will be a couple of extra Reading to Waterloo services in the peak flow directions, but the route hasn't been mentioned AFAICS...

 

[Muzer]

I thought the whole point of this was to give more capacity to the Windsor/Reading services (they did seem rather "cosy" when I used them last) - unless 450s have significantly more capacity than 458s (which might well be true, I can't remember the 458s' configurations offhand).

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the whole point of this was to give more capacity to the Windsor/Reading services (they did seem rather "cosy" when I used them last) - unless 450s have significantly more capacity than 458s (which might well be true, I can't remember the 458s' configurations offhand).

The declared extra capacity on the Reading 'service' is being achieved with a few extra 8 car peak services only.

The Windsor side 10 car lengthening project has never included the specific Reading route/trains; it basically includes every route on the Windsor side EXCEPT Reading.

Additional capacity increases by train lengthening for Reading itself are expected to be confirmed as a part of the CP5 work.

 

[JB25]

Not necessarily to do with the actual 456 traction but Southern run a two car 456 shuttle between Purley and Tattenham Corner during week days. Will this service be scrapped once the 456s go or will they be replaced by say a three car 377 for example? Does anyone know?

 

[456]

The 458/5 conversions aren't intended for the Reading Line, they have always been planned to be used on the routes currently operated by the HC 450/5s.

The Reading service is going to be run by normal spec 450s in 8 car formation, happening progressively as the 458/5s move over to the Windsors and Hounslow loop after conversion. Extension of platforms on the Virginia Water to Reading section of the route is proposed but not yet confirmed, but will not be done for about 5 years anyway.

I think your rumour is just that, all they've said so far is that there will be a couple of extra Reading to Waterloo services in the peak flow directions, but the route hasn't been mentioned AFAICS...

I've noticed some 450/5 are getting first class sections. is this part swt plan to have them on the reading line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not necessarily to do with the actual 456 traction but Southern run a two car 456 shuttle between Purley and Tattenham Corner during week days. Will this service be scrapped once the 456s go or will they be replaced by say a three car 377 for example? Does anyone know?

are they still running the london charing cross to tattenham corner service.

 

[Class377/5]

I've noticed some 450/5 are getting first class sections. is this part swt plan to have them on the reading line?

They are restoring them back to near original condition so the whole 450 fleet can be diagrammed as one.

are they still running the london charing cross to tattenham corner service.

No, Southern haven't served Charing Cross in timetabled service in many years and there is no plans to. Southern only go as far as London Bridge now.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've noticed some 450/5 are getting first class sections. is this part swt plan to have them on the reading line?

All the 450/5 are getting their First sections back, but they aren't having the missing standard class seats re-instated, so will keep their /5 designation. It remains to be seen if they will eventually be used on a specific route, they certainly aren't now. There's a short delay in the re-instatement works though, while they find the sliding doors.

Much more info in this thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86760

 

[JB25]

No, Southern haven't served Charing Cross in timetabled service in many years and there is no plans to. Southern only go as far as London Bridge now.

Nothing concrete but I have heard rumours that once the London Bridge work has been completed Southern (Franchise dependant) will be once again going up to Charing X.

 

[Eagle]

Obviously by that point Southern and Thameslink will have merged, so you'll definitely have Southern trains at London Bridge HL going to Blackfriars. Not sure whether going to Charing Cross is an option though.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nothing concrete but I have heard rumours that once the London Bridge work has been completed Southern (Franchise dependant) will be once again going up to Charing X.

The reasoning given for removal of SN from Charing Cross predates the London Bridge work by quite a few years, it was allegedly done to make room for revised SE services according to the SN 2008 franchise spec.

Besides, the layout changes going on now don't actually allow for SN to serve the through platforms without massive crossing conflicts - the whole point of the new layout is to avoid flat crossings. So I can't see it ever changing back again.

I expect you've heard rumours generated by those who disagree with the earlier decision. I can't find anything in the relevant RUSs or franchise specs that points to it being a temporary change. Indeed Charing Cross isn't even mentioned in the TSGN consultation...