What will replace the Class 456's on Southern?

[bicbasher]

With Southern's 456's moving across to SWT next year, which rolling stock will replace the 456's currently in use on Metro services?

 

[badassunicorn]

they are getting new 377's to replace them, so I guess either them or the 455's?

 

[Class377/5]

With Southern's 456's moving across to SWT next year, which rolling stock will replace the 456's currently in use on Metro services?

The 377/6 and the 377/7 will be replacing them.

 

[Vicpaul]

New 77s and existing stock

 

[NSE]

I was aware of the 377/6 and the eventual return of the /5's but what's the /7's?

 

[anthony263]

I was aware of the 377/6 and the eventual return of the /5's but what's the /7's?

Seems the aditional electrostar carrriages ordered by southern on behalf of the DFT after the order was placed for the class 377/6 units will be numbered in the 377/7 series.

 

[D365]

Seems the aditional electrostar carrriages ordered by southern on behalf of the DFT after the order was placed for the class 377/6 units will be numbered in the 377/7 series.

Additional 8x5 /7s are identical to 377/6s but sport 25kV AC pickup. Really convolutes the class category, I reckon. Should be numbered 377692-9 as 377/5 should have been 377216-43, perhaps; makes better use of numbers? Now if the 116+140 Southern tender spawns further 377s? Perhaps the BBC Class Calculator will prove handy D:

This news may bear some relevance to the future of the 456s as a retrofit would likely follow on from that of the 455 fleet. Southern should throw in their 455 lot too.

 

[bicbasher]

As the 456's are used also to add additional cars to a 455, could we see a service become a 377 or replaced by other 455s?

 

[hwl]

As the 456's are used also to add additional cars to a 455, could we see a service become a 377 or replaced by other 455s?

[For those forum members less familiar with Southern Metro services, they frequently make 8 car services as 1x 455 and 2x 456. ]

A mix of the 2.

The routes* with 10 car platform lengthening will see just over 50% of rush hour services increased from 8 car to 10 car i.e. swap from 2x 455 or 1x 455 & 2x 456 to 2x 377/6 or /7.
The remaining 8 car services that are 455 & 2x 456 will become 2x 455


* Victoria via Streatham Common
Victoria via Streatham Hill
London Bridge via New Cross gate

 

[Southern]

What about Mole Valley line services? Am sure that Boxhill & Westhumble platforms have been lengthened.

 

[455driver]

What about Mole Valley line services? Am sure that Boxhill & Westhumble platforms have been lengthened.

Yes it has along with theother stations between Epsom and Dorking.

 

[bicbasher]

A mix of the 2.

The routes* with 10 car platform lengthening will see just over 50% of rush hour services increased from 8 car to 10 car i.e. swap from 2x 455 or 1x 455 & 2x 456 to 2x 377/6 or /7.
The remaining 8 car services that are 455 & 2x 456 will become 2x 455


* Victoria via Streatham Common
Victoria via Streatham Hill
London Bridge via New Cross gate

The Sydenham slow is already at 50% at the moment with 10 car formations in the evening peak all going to West Croydon. Morning peak is 2tph of 10 car 377s with other formations of 8 car 377s or 455/456, either 4, 6 or 8 car.

The other evening peaks are 2tph on the outer SLL which are 455/456 which I think are all 8 car?

 

[pendolino]

Yes it has along with theother stations between Epsom and Dorking.

And Cheam going the other way, which has taken months and months. But not Ewell East.

I think the platform lengthening at Box Hill was brought forward in the programme to allow longer trains to be run when all those people in clingy shorts were riding up and down the hill on pushbikes during the Olympics.

 

[Class377/5]

Additional 8x5 /7s are identical to 377/6s but sport 25kV AC pickup. Really convolutes the class category, I reckon. Should be numbered 377692-9 as 377/5 should have been 377216-43, perhaps; makes better use of numbers? Now if the 116+140 Southern tender spawns further 377s? Perhaps the BBC Class Calculator will prove handy D:

This news may bear some relevance to the future of the 456s as a retrofit would likely follow on from that of the 455 fleet. Southern should throw in their 455 lot too.

Logic would have seem the 377/6 being 379/1 and 377/7 being 379/2.

 

[bicbasher]

Suburban Guard on Twitter says the 456's are moving to SWT from this December.

 

[455driver]

As has always been the case, they start to transfer them.

 

[D365]

Logic would have seem the 377/6 being 379/1 and 377/7 being 379/2.

My interpretation is that 377/6-7 are basically 377s in 379 shells, similarly to how the 168/1-2 was changed to a that of a 170 Turbostar with the 168/0 Clubman being based around the Networker. Presumably a similar arrangement if any further builds come around; perhaps the 116+140 Southern procurement.

 

[Class377/5]

My interpretation is that 377/6-7 are basically 377s in 379 shells, similarly to how the 168/1-2 was changed to a that of a 170 Turbostar with the 168/0 Clubman being based around the Networker. Presumably a similar arrangement if any further builds come around; perhaps the 116+140 Southern procurement.

Not completely as they use the Orbita software rather than MITRAC. Just designed to work with 377 that's all. If Bombardier get the contract its likely they will be proper dv 379 stock however especially as they will require 110mph units not the 100 Electrostar model. Not currently know if the Adventra will be 110mph but rumors of Bombardier using the 377/6 as test units have been mentioned.

 

[D365]

Not completely as they use the Orbita software rather than MITRAC. Just designed to work with 377 that's all. If Bombardier get the contract its likely they will be proper dv 379 stock however especially as they will require 110mph units not the 100 Electrostar model. Not currently know if the Adventra will be 110mph but rumors of Bombardier using the 377/6 as test units have been mentioned.

Ah, so backward compatible software it is then. Let's hope this does work; weren't there problems getting /5s to communicate out-of-the-box? Would be slightly surprised if Aventra isn't designed for 110mph, let alone even existing Electrostars reaching it in service, perhaps.

Perhaps this conversation is more at home in this thread, if it continues.

 

[edwin_m]

Can they fit shoes to the bogie they use on the 172? That is I believe a variation on the class 220/222 bogie which is good for 125mph and saves a bit of weight too.

 

[jopsuk]

I've seen pictures of inside frame bogies with collection shoes- it certainly isn't an impossibility.

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't the simple solution be to simply fit two normal bogies onto each unit and fit the shoes on those?
Assuming ofcourse inside frame bogies with shoebeams is difficult to do.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes it has along with theother stations between Epsom and Dorking.

Hasn't this been done simply because SWT are moving to 10 cars via Epsom rather than for any Southern aspiration?

 

[455driver]

Not sure who its been done for but the fact it has been done is the main thing.

 

[Class377/5]

Ah, so backward compatible software it is then. Let's hope this does work; weren't there problems getting /5s to communicate out-of-the-box? Would be slightly surprised if Aventra isn't designed for 110mph, let alone even existing Electrostars reaching it in service, perhaps.

Perhaps this conversation is more at home in this thread, if it continues.

Some of the /5's were pain but most weren't that bad. No Electrostar is rated at 110mph, that the important thing. It would only the 357 & 379 fleets that could go that fast. Adventra we don't know about.

 

[D365]

I meant to say existing Electrostars might reach 110mph in regular service with modification, as has been done with LM 350/1 (Project 110). Would be silly not to design the NXEMUs with this capability in mind.

 

[edwin_m]

The series 3 has already been pushed out to 100mph and my guess is that when the next redesign comes along they'll adopt the inside frame bogie instead, assuming it's OK with shoebeams. This is proven at 125mph (at least in its 220/222 version which may be slightly more sophisticated) and was preferred over the series 3 for the 172.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've seen pictures of inside frame bogies with collection shoes- it certainly isn't an impossibility.

It's needed for Thameslink as well, and seems to be shown in the Desiro City brochure here:
http://www.industry.siemens.co.uk/m...desiro_city/Documents/desiro-city-booklet.pdf

Motor bogie image on page 8 - doesn't seem to be a 'shoebeam' in the traditional sense, but then it doesn't need to be.

 

[pendolino]

Hasn't this been done simply because SWT are moving to 10 cars via Epsom rather than for any Southern aspiration?

That doesn't explain Cheam though.

 

[455driver]

I meant to say existing Electrostars might reach 110mph in regular service with modification, as has been done with LM 350/1 (Project 110). Would be silly not to design the NXEMUs with this capability in mind.

So you think its a good use of money to over spec a fleet for something that might or might not happen in the future?

Ask an accountant* if the numbers work?

* Accountants run the railways now.