Class 66's are probably the worst loco for a driver, ask any driver from EWS or FL. Loco wise the 50's take some beating. Modern loco's you only really have the 66's & 67's being built over the last decade, not a lot of choice. As for units the 350 desiros take some beating.
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What was/is the best class design ever made?
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Class 66's are probably the worst loco for a driver, ask any driver from EWS or FL. Loco wise the 50's take some beating. Modern loco's you only really have the 66's & 67's being built over the last decade, not a lot of choice. As for units the 350 desiros take some beating.
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RailUK Forums
support-uk-rail
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Well, you have 47-57 conversions, in the last 10 years, no?
EE Type 3
Established Member
Everyone remember that 66s were only chosen due to their out of the box nature and they were cheap.
Not biased at all, but it has to be Class 37s.
Sterling service for donkeys years, and, they are still going with the likes of EWS, DRS, and WCRC. Truely an iconic design and a workhorse of Britain.
Not biased at all, but it has to be Class 37s.
Sterling service for donkeys years, and, they are still going with the likes of EWS, DRS, and WCRC. Truely an iconic design and a workhorse of Britain.
robertclark125
Established Member
Gotta be 47/7 with DBSO
HST.... Smooth, quiet and very comfortable. Went to Taunton the other day, took a Voyager as far as Bristol on the way back. Doesn't compare... I felt very sorry for the people going all the way up to Manchester on it! The ride was harsh, it was noisy, it smelt, and the seats were uncomfortable. Not a patch on the HST. Plus, on an HST, you can lean out the window... 8) 8) I'll never forget rounding a curve on the Devon sea wall in the trailing coach of a FGW HST... I'll have to arrange a little trip down to my godfather in Cornwall then won't I!
ChrisEJ1993
Member
Defenatly the HST is best - There's just so much going for them, as has been covered in this thread.
- There's just so much going for them, as has been covered in this thread.
90019
Established Member
The Gronks, loads of them all over the country, still going strong, and they'll probably continue to do so for some time.
Voyager 2093
Member
No offence when people say that HSTs are the best class of train, and moan about smell toliets on voyagers, pendolinos and adalentes, you have to remmember HSTs are 'locos' not mulitple units so the wont be cramped as the HST is only the driving motor and technically you can only ever bash a HST if you get a cab ride, you are only inside the coaches, anybody catch me drift here.
59-66. Who are you all fooling? Gronks do their job well but it isnt hard to make a successful shunter, HSt yeah thats definately a competitor, but the global success of the 66 freight design is unstoppale, and you all know its true.
But the question wasnt what is best to drive, that aside its still the best design around, almost indestrucable, look at the out of service figures.
Your all saying 37's etc. Yeah they where ok, and the fact stings of them still operate nowadays shows the reliable engineering involved (if looked after properly) But the loco was built as a multi purpose frieght engine, it didnt excell at that, although it did it well. 66's do excell.
But the question wasnt what is best to drive, that aside its still the best design around, almost indestrucable, look at the out of service figures.
Your all saying 37's etc. Yeah they where ok, and the fact stings of them still operate nowadays shows the reliable engineering involved (if looked after properly) But the loco was built as a multi purpose frieght engine, it didnt excell at that, although it did it well. 66's do excell.
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Ilove165's
Member
165 FTW! 
Seriously, what about the 91? Seems pretty decent to me...
Seriously, what about the 91? Seems pretty decent to me...
165 FTW!
Seriously, what about the 91? Seems pretty decent to me...
It has succeded at its role, but its role isnt exactly revonlutionary is it? A Specifically designed loco for the ECML, with hardly any further use, although they did try to make a frieght version IIRC.
90019
Established Member
They were going to be used for intermodals at night, hence the slab end, although the 90s took over this.
The Box Photter
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I'd have to agree with the majority of posters in that the HST/Class 43/Classes 253 & 254 must win the title.
- Designed as a low(ish) cost stop-gap until the APT could be made to work
- Designed to operate within existing signalling constraints at 125mph
- Best-riding coaching stock ever on BR
- Dual unit reliability so that if one power car failed you still had a fighting chance of getting home
- Doesn't smell of toilets
- Sound great
43034 The Black Horse
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Just because there is alot of them it doesn't mean they're good (Cough, Class 47s
). They are crap to drive, cheap, do not have the best pulling power. The Cabs are draughty and they vibrate and rattle.Defenatly the HST is best
Agreed. I also like 1992 Tube Stock (I know that train is not owned by Network Rail but in it's first year of service 1992 it was only owned by Network Rail,but in 1993 LUL received some units for the Central line and then in 1994 LUL bought all of the 92's and the whole entire Waterloo & City line from Network SouthEast.
poshbakerloo
Member
The MK3 design has been the best, the HST MK3 coaches and any of the multiple unites based on it...
I think it depends if you are looking at it from a TOC view, a passengers view, or an enthusiast's view, what is "best"? HSTs are good for TOCs, but I would suspect most passengers would prefer a nice quiet, fast, EMU to travel in. On ECML the 225 is far nicer to travel in than the old fashioned HSTs.
A question, is the HST considered great because it really is that good. Or is it great by default, as it had to last by necessity, because of a lack of investment in newer designs?
I do however think it is quite sad, that possible the best train designed in UK, is more than 30 years old, very noisy for people who live near the tracks, slow (compared to a TGV say) and obsolete compared to current European standards of passenger comfort and safety design.
Alas it says a lot about UK railways and UK manufacturing! Very sad considering we once led the world in railways.
My vote (if talking about the best class actually designed in the UK) goes to the Class 91, pulling a rake of Mk4 carriages. It had quite a few interesting features, such as allowing the 91s to be used as freight locos, body mounted motors to reduce track wear at high speed, state-of-the-art computer-based electronics for power and brake control, was the most powerful UK built loco until the Class 92 came out, and still (I belive) holds the British loco speed record. It was BR's last really great moment (I believe the Class 91 loco was even delivered on time, in 1988 after only 2 years of work, following the signing of the contract), and its a train that I would be much more proud of showing to someone from abroad, who knew nothing about our railways, than an old HST.
But I supose that is all down to how I define "best" class design ever, define "best" differently, and it could be an HST I supose! I would point out I think of best, as up to date, at the forefront of technology.
If its the best all round class opearting today in the UK, I would go for the Desiro, a very flexable design, again with great technology, with a lot of good safety features too.
Best train operating in Europe, then the TGV Duplex, full of innovations, and right at the forefront of current train(with wheels) technology.
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whoshotjimmi
Member
There is a lot of debate about what constitutes a good design. In my opinion, for something to be a good design, it must do what it is expected to do well.
In the rail world, a train is expected to be cost effective, reliable and to successully deliver its cargo to its destination and, in the case of passengers, in reasonable comfort. The way a train looks or sounds is, though often a very nice bonus, largely irrelevent.
To whoever suggested the pacers (I forget who it was now) - very bold decision among a very critical population and I agree with you - to an extent. The problem I have with them is that they were completely unable to perform on a large area of the network - areas they were originally intended for. This menas that they were not able to do what was expected of them. Having said that, they have and will run for much longer than intended and have been reasonably successful on the many routes they run on - routes that they supposedly would not run on. Considering that and the fact that they are not very comfortable on longer journeys nor is their reliabilty record that good, one would have to say that, as a design, they cannot be considered in the upper echelons of train design.
Loads of debate over the Class 66 from a broad spectrum of people. I have found that drivers are not overly complimentary about them and who would know more than them, right? BUT, looking at it from a design point of view, the Class 66 (and of course 59) has been among the most successful trains ever built. Forget the worldwide appeal for a moment and look at it like this. Cheap to build, cheap to maintain, robust and good at all jobs. There are locos that are better at some jobs (class 60 at heavy haul, for instance) but few that make so much financial sense. They have eliminated the need for small pools of different classes built to different designs and now dominate the freight industry like no other loco has. There is a damned good reason for all of that and a rattly cab has no bearing on that whatsoever. In my opinion, the class 66 has saved freight on the railways. It has made it more affordable and it has made it more predictable. More freight can now be moved with lower overhead costs and a decent chance that the train will not fail after 5000 miles. It is not a looker, it does not make a great sound and it is not very popular, but it does everything it is asked to do and does it well.
Class 158 - The 158 is my favourite train but I will not let my bias get in the way of why I think it is a good design. It was designed to carry passengers over long distances quickly, quietly and comfortably - all of which it does perfectly. Yes, there were the ridiculous brake issues to begin with but that was resolved and the 158 has become a steady workhorse throughout the UK. Where I live, they were beautifully relaxing on the fast transpennine runs and are now increasingly being used on more commuter type services - again with great distinction. The 90mph top speed is a small issue that makes it a minor headache on the higher speed lines but the suitability of the class to all services not to mention the fact that they are more comfortable than a lot of more modern classes that have replaced them (170, 185 etc) makes them a great design.
All other things pale into insignificance, however, when the HST is mentioned. A stop gap measure that proved so successful, it not only put a halt to APT aspirations but is still considered among many to be the best out there 40 years later. We are talking about a machine that did not only acheive what it was meant to acheive, but blew its mission brief sky high. A machine that completely altered the focus of the UK rail network. There are those who think that the HST is now getting a bit long in the tooth and maybe there are signs that it is (engine replacements, manual doors etc) and I would never say "don't replace them", but if and when they are replaced, it will take a product of unbeliveable quality to fill the void that is left. And comfort? There is no other piece of rolling stock available today that is as comfortable as a Mk3.
In essence, the HST is not only the best bit of design to have graced UK metals, but is one of the very best designs of ANYTHING anywhere in the world.
In the rail world, a train is expected to be cost effective, reliable and to successully deliver its cargo to its destination and, in the case of passengers, in reasonable comfort. The way a train looks or sounds is, though often a very nice bonus, largely irrelevent.
To whoever suggested the pacers (I forget who it was now) - very bold decision among a very critical population and I agree with you - to an extent. The problem I have with them is that they were completely unable to perform on a large area of the network - areas they were originally intended for. This menas that they were not able to do what was expected of them. Having said that, they have and will run for much longer than intended and have been reasonably successful on the many routes they run on - routes that they supposedly would not run on. Considering that and the fact that they are not very comfortable on longer journeys nor is their reliabilty record that good, one would have to say that, as a design, they cannot be considered in the upper echelons of train design.
Loads of debate over the Class 66 from a broad spectrum of people. I have found that drivers are not overly complimentary about them and who would know more than them, right? BUT, looking at it from a design point of view, the Class 66 (and of course 59) has been among the most successful trains ever built. Forget the worldwide appeal for a moment and look at it like this. Cheap to build, cheap to maintain, robust and good at all jobs. There are locos that are better at some jobs (class 60 at heavy haul, for instance) but few that make so much financial sense. They have eliminated the need for small pools of different classes built to different designs and now dominate the freight industry like no other loco has. There is a damned good reason for all of that and a rattly cab has no bearing on that whatsoever. In my opinion, the class 66 has saved freight on the railways. It has made it more affordable and it has made it more predictable. More freight can now be moved with lower overhead costs and a decent chance that the train will not fail after 5000 miles. It is not a looker, it does not make a great sound and it is not very popular, but it does everything it is asked to do and does it well.
Class 158 - The 158 is my favourite train but I will not let my bias get in the way of why I think it is a good design. It was designed to carry passengers over long distances quickly, quietly and comfortably - all of which it does perfectly. Yes, there were the ridiculous brake issues to begin with but that was resolved and the 158 has become a steady workhorse throughout the UK. Where I live, they were beautifully relaxing on the fast transpennine runs and are now increasingly being used on more commuter type services - again with great distinction. The 90mph top speed is a small issue that makes it a minor headache on the higher speed lines but the suitability of the class to all services not to mention the fact that they are more comfortable than a lot of more modern classes that have replaced them (170, 185 etc) makes them a great design.
All other things pale into insignificance, however, when the HST is mentioned. A stop gap measure that proved so successful, it not only put a halt to APT aspirations but is still considered among many to be the best out there 40 years later. We are talking about a machine that did not only acheive what it was meant to acheive, but blew its mission brief sky high. A machine that completely altered the focus of the UK rail network. There are those who think that the HST is now getting a bit long in the tooth and maybe there are signs that it is (engine replacements, manual doors etc) and I would never say "don't replace them", but if and when they are replaced, it will take a product of unbeliveable quality to fill the void that is left. And comfort? There is no other piece of rolling stock available today that is as comfortable as a Mk3.
In essence, the HST is not only the best bit of design to have graced UK metals, but is one of the very best designs of ANYTHING anywhere in the world.
WillPS
Established Member
HSTs are notable - everything they bought to the railways was and in some ways still is second to one. However, for passenger comfort (apart from noise), the Mk.3 just doesn't touch a Meridian. Just an opinion!
I'm also of the opinion that the door layout of 150s and Turbostars is much more appropriate than the layout on Super and Express Sprinters, makes the train seem that much more open and roomy, and also provides more comfortable space for gangway passengers.
There was so much variance in the 158s (even from manufacture, leave alone all the differerent standards of maintenance, refurbishments etc. they've been through) that it's impossible to make sweeping statements over how comfortable the all are. Air conditioning is one particular problem which refurbishments have dealt with - try riding an ex-Central Trains unit in last week's heat!! Not nice! I guess they do have the saving grace of the openable windows, but still - inconsistency is their genesis.
I'm also of the opinion that the door layout of 150s and Turbostars is much more appropriate than the layout on Super and Express Sprinters, makes the train seem that much more open and roomy, and also provides more comfortable space for gangway passengers.
Well it defies logic if so, why would Huge companies spend lots of money on these locomotives, i can tell you because they are brilliant at what they do.
Class 47's where an average loco, a ******* to work on and unreliable compared to modern equivelants. Although 512 where produced, this was back in the 60's, they served a purpose.
Fincra5
Established Member
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EMU= 377
DMU=170 (171)
I just really like the desgin.
DMU=170 (171)
I just really like the desgin.
90019
Established Member
So why are we still using them when they're now all at least 45 years old?
If it's so easy, why have they not been superceded by a new shunter?
37401
Established Member
Anything EE Beast to roll out of Newton Le Willows and Vulcan Foundy, all 45-50 years old and are all still going strong plus nowt beats the sound of a EE12CSVT or EE16CSVT
Royston Vasey
Established Member
My favourite locomotive is the HST class 43...
**lights blue touch paper and runs away to hide**
**lights blue touch paper and runs away to hide**
TGVDUDE
Member
Class 43 HST!
poshbakerloo
Member
It is the best...fastest diesel locomotive...Mk3 coaches are very good, loads of space great to ride in!
asylumxl
Established Member
Class 222. Best balance of modern design/speed/comfort.
I think you mean the HST wasn't smooth.... I've never been on a smooth running HST compared to a 170 anyway...
Phoenix
Established Member
Ever been on a 170 doing 125mph though?
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