What stock will Scotrail procure to replace HSTs?

[AlastairFraser]

Are the multiple shunt moves required to extend a loco hauled set really faster than simply coupling another multiple unit?

Depends if the extra carriage is able to be added at the depot, or not.

 

[JonathanH]

Depends if the extra carriage is able to be added at the depot, or not.

Given the coaching sets tend to have fixed couplers now, this fabled 'advantage' of hauled stock is unlikely. It might be remembered that the existing HSTs can be reformed in this way, but Scotrail don't form up longer sets for days of high demand.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is a reason basically every railway other than sleeper trains have switched to either MUs, and that almost all remaining loco-hauled stock is fixed rakes (e.g. RailJet, TPE Mk5A, NS ICR)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whatever they go with, I just hope they have good, comfortable seats. A small kitchen in 1st class would be nice too.
The current 1st class catering offering is shocking.
The Scotrail HST is such a waste of an opportunity; they could be providing a quality Scottish breakfast/dinner offering on certain services leaving at peak time. The Welsh have been doing this for years.

They haven't been doing it well though. Using tired legacy stock and locomotives in constant need of maintenance has caused the Welsh MK4 service to become a bit of an unreliable joke these past few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They haven't been doing it well though. Using tired legacy stock and locomotives in constant need of maintenance has caused the Welsh MK4 service to become a bit of an unreliable joke these past few years.

Agree, it's just old tat well overdue scrap.

A 5 car end doored Civity DMU would have been much better. The 397s are well liked.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

FLIRTs are probably the best option for the routes ScotRail are looking to replace. Can be future proofed for wires, very positive reviews from GA and Wales, level boarding and a decent onboard ambience, especially when compared to anything built by CAF or Hitachi. However I’m sure they’ll go for something much worse instead.

I completely disagree that a 231/745/755 has a nicer onboard ambience than a 397. Completely. Especially in first class, where I believe a 397 to be years ahead of the 745.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==

A 5 car end doored Civity DMU would have been much better. The 397s are well liked.

Yes, the 397s are excellent. Whenever I travel to the Lakes to see my other half and I get the single 802 diagram, I really notice the downgrade. The train feels so bland and sterile compared to the usual DB ICE-esque 397.

 

[ScotTrains]

They haven't been doing it well though. Using tired legacy stock and locomotives in constant need of maintenance has caused the Welsh MK4 service to become a bit of an unreliable joke these past few years.

True, but at least they try. Scotrail used to offer soup, bacon rolls etc in 1st. These days you're lucky if it has a catering trolley. Usually the help-yourself tray of biscuits and drinks is completely empty, even at the start of a journey.

I completely disagree that a 231/745/755 has a nicer onboard ambience than a 397. Completely. Especially in first class, where I believe a 397 to be years ahead of the 745.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==


Yes, the 397s are excellent. Whenever I travel to the Lakes to see my other half and I get the single 802 diagram, I really notice the downgrade. The train feels so bland and sterile compared to the usual DB ICE-esque 397.

I completely agree. The 397s are so much better than the Hitachi stuff. First class on the nova2 (397) is much better than the nova1 (802), with nicer seats, better ambience and better seat layout with tables for two. I've never tried a FLIRT but they don't look that great inside.

Scotrail want to replace the HST with something that provides more comfort (if that's actually possible!) so hopefully they don't just go for the cheapest trains but actually consider what their passengers actually want

 

[Aaron_TTL]

I traveled on an TPE 397 down to Manchester and thought the chair was awful, wooden plank with cloth almost.. Travelled back home on a 390 and the chairs were much better.

 

[gingertom]

I've finally managed to sample the class 745 on the Stansted Express. A 6-car version, initially with a power pod in the middle until the routes are 100% wired up, I suggest, would work very well on Scotrail's IC routes. 755/6?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I've finally managed to sample the class 745 on the Stansted Express. A 6-car version, initially with a power pod in the middle until the routes are 100% wired up, I suggest, would work very well on Scotrail's IC routes. 755/6?

Too expensive atm.

 

[Clansman]

Too expensive atm.

The Scottish Government have a track record already of paying a premium for rolling stock, look no further than the HSTs or the Mk5s for the sleeper. That's not to say that it will be the same this time around to be fair.

I've finally managed to sample the class 745 on the Stansted Express. A 6-car version, initially with a power pod in the middle until the routes are 100% wired up, I suggest, would work very well on Scotrail's IC routes. 755/6?

I'll raise you a step further and suggest a bespoke evolution of the Stadler Smile, UK guaged, shorter articulated coaches, and kitted out to ScotRail spec - taking into account enhanced luggage provisions, performance, and the marketability for scenic routes that ScotRail have spoken of previously. Something like the attached that diagrammatically rehashes the base 'RABe 501' design shell to roughly to the capacity and length of a 6-car HST that was in the original plans drawn up when they were first procured.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The SMILE would be a waste of money - no ScotRail unit is ever going to need to run at 140+mph and the FLIRT is quite happy at 100-110.

The unit pictured looks good but I'd build it on the FLIRT platform.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The Scottish Government have a track record already of paying a premium for rolling stock, look no further than the HSTs or the Mk5s for the sleeper. That's not to say that it will be the same this time around to be fair.

Your last sentence is the key part for me. I doubt they'll want to repeat the HST experience with the 318/320 replacement looming in the medium term too.

 

[Clansman]

The SMILE would be a waste of money - no ScotRail unit is ever going to need to run at 140+mph and the FLIRT is quite happy at 100-110.

As a carbon copy of the RABe 501, absolutely I agree. But I was implying that you would spec it out for what ScotRail need, and the SMILE was a point of reference for what I was meaning from a purely illustrative point of view rather than technical, hence my use of 'bespoke'. The same way that if Hitachi throw in an IET design into the bidding process, that they could spec a 100mph version. The same goes for any manufacturer, be it CAF wanting to rehash a 397 variant too if they so desired. Or something entirely different. The family of train or the shape of train is irrelevent to how you kit out its mechanics in this context.

Agree with you there that an evolution of the FLIRT would be preferable.

 

[Snow1964]

Hitachi has released news item about new battery technology to fit under lower floor for level boarding.

Of more interest (to me anyway) is the illustration which looks like a regional version of a 385 with UK height doors with mid European front end

Hitachi Rail

About Hitachi, Ltd.Through its Social Innovation Business (SIB) that brings together IT, OT(Operational Technology) and products, Hitachi...

www.hitachirail.com

 

[Clansman]

Hitachi has released news item about new battery technology to fit under lower floor for level boarding.

Of more interest (to me anyway) is the illustration which looks like a regional version of a 385 with UK height doors with mid European front end

Hitachi Rail

About Hitachi, Ltd.Through its Social Innovation Business (SIB) that brings together IT, OT(Operational Technology) and products, Hitachi...

www.hitachirail.com

They've been touting that render since before covid. It's poorly done, clearly from the cab design it's nothing but a cheap overlay of the 385 cab with a relivery. More or less a marketing tool for its new tecu, but much in the same way that Alstom used renders of the Aventra with a snazzy new blue-bubbled paint job to pitch a hydrogen variant.

Having said that, with the UK's restrictive loading gauge it is a promising development if newer technology can become more economical in its use of space, especially from a luggage and passenger experience point of view (ie the higher the speed/acceleration, the higher the floor and the tighter the saloon space is - which the IETs exemplify at 100-125mph on diesel with higher floors vice a Class 150 with Mk3 profiling at 75mph diesel capabilities). If you could utilise the newer technology to achieve 100-125mph off-wire running with the saloon space of at least an Mk3 you'd have a solid and quality piece of rolling stock on your hands.

 

[reecestrains]

If I may chip in... Once the HST's go eventually, what's gonna go in their place? Hitachi's, CAF, etc?

What's also gonna happen with the 170's and 158's that operate on there?

Plus, thinking about the 156's... Are there going to eventually be replaced with 158's on West Highland and 170's on Kyle and Far North after infrastructure upgrades in the future on those routes? I'm sure I saw an article that this would be long term as the newer stock is coming in and older phased out gradually.

 

[Snow1964]

If I may chip in... Once the HST's go eventually, what's gonna go in their place? Hitachi's, CAF, etc?

What's also gonna happen with the 170's and 158's that operate on there?

Plus, thinking about the 156's... Are there going to eventually be replaced with 158's on West Highland and 170's on Kyle and Far North after infrastructure upgrades in the future on those routes? I'm sure I saw an article that this would be long term as the newer stock is coming in and older phased out gradually.

The 156s are about 36 years old and the 158s about 34 years old.

Both would be expected to reach life expectancy in next 3-7 years, and there is fair chance newer trains eg 170s will take over some of their current workings

 

[Transilien]

Plus, thinking about the 156's... Are there going to eventually be replaced with 158's on West Highland and 170's on Kyle and Far North after infrastructure upgrades in the future on those routes? I'm sure I saw an article that this would be long term as the newer stock is coming in and older phased out gradually.

The 158s are not much newer than the 156s. Wouldn’t it be better for a special new type of train to be produced for the rural lines in Scotland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 158s are not much newer than the 156s. Wouldn’t it be better for a special new type of train to be produced for the rural lines in Scotland?

Some sort of hydrogen unit is looking likely. It's the odd case where it's viable - hydrogen production options in Scotland and long lines for which sufficient batteries would be too heavy.

 

[Energy]

Some sort of hydrogen unit is looking likely. It's the odd case where it's viable - hydrogen production options in Scotland and long lines for which sufficient batteries would be too heavy.

You could possibly do it on battery with charging at Fort William, Mallaig, Oban, Crianlarich and Glasgow. Hydrogen isn't a bad fit for the line, though the best option IMO is to carry on running it on diesel until pretty much every other line is decarbonised.

 

[reecestrains]

The 156s are about 36 years old and the 158s about 34 years old.

Both would be expected to reach life expectancy in next 3-7 years, and there is fair chance newer trains eg 170s will take over some of their current workings

Yeah they're both cracking on now, I believe the whole Far North Line's infrastructure will need to be upgraded before 170's could go towards Kyle of Lochalsh and Thurso/Wick.

They're upgrading the line between Inverness and Tain in October and November as announced last week.

£1.6m rail improvement project set to get underway in Scotland

As part of a £1.6m project, Network Rail engineers are to start on a series of works on the Far North Line. Rails and sleepers will be replaced at Merkinch Ferry, Alness and Dingwall overnight every Monday through Thursday between the 7th of October and 28th of November. To allow…

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah they're both cracking on now, I believe the whole Far North Line's infrastructure will need to be upgraded before 170's could go towards Kyle of Lochalsh and Thurso/Wick.

In what way? 170s are as close to a go-anywhere DMU as you can get. The huge windows would be excellent for scenic lines too.

Are we just talking about shaving bits of platform off?

 

[reecestrains]

In what way? 170s are as close to a go-anywhere DMU as you can get. The huge windows would be excellent for scenic lines too.

Are we just talking about shaving bits of platform off?

I agree that 170's would be great for the line, but they're currently not route cleared and would require track upgrades to have them run effectively up there.

From what I know, the track up there is of a different type compared to the Highland Mainline and Inverness-Aberdeen for example so may not be compatible until upgrades happen.

 

[Transilien]

I agree that 170's would be great for the line, but they're currently not route cleared and would require track upgrades to have them run effectively up there.

From what I know, the track up there is of a different type compared to the Highland Mainline and Inverness-Aberdeen for example so may not be compatible until upgrades happen.

I think that the 170s should go to the West Highland Line first. The 156s are not very comfortable compared to the 158s and 170s especially with the lack of air conditioning and ironing board seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that the 170s should go to the West Highland Line first. The 156s are not very comfortable compared to the 158s and 170s especially with the lack of air conditioning and ironing board seats.

A refurb would be a good plan first, they will probably want to add cycle space and luggage space, and perhaps more table seats (though I think ScotRail mostly have a low density layout anyway?)

 

[reecestrains]

I think that the 170s should go to the West Highland Line first. The 156s are not very comfortable compared to the 158s and 170s especially with the lack of air conditioning and ironing board seats.

It'd be the same issue there. Different track type, 40-60mph speed limits and the steep hills wouldn't work really well with a DMU with slower acceleration rate.
The 158's would definitely be a lot better suited for the West Highland Line to replace the 156's.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2024 ==

I'd say the 170's would be better suited for Far North and Kyle of Lochalsh because of 75mph speed limit you can get them out of first gear at 70mph and would run better. The West Highland, you couldn't at 60mph tops. Similar case with Northern's 170's on the Leeds-York via Harrogate route with a max speed of 65mph.

That's just my opinion on it.

 

[northscots]

Neither 170s or 22x are compatible with the stated desire to improve comfort and accessibility for passengers.

They are both more accessible than a HST and they are also an improvement in comfort over the the 158 that's covering a failed HST

 

[Snow1964]

I wonder what is happening, on 3rd September Scottish Government indicated tender in coming weeks, now 5-6 weeks later and nothing since.

“We want to replace the current Intercity fleet with trains which provide more comfort and accessibility for passengers on these routes.
“This planned investment will ensure the reliability of our Intercity routes for the long-term, will reduce emissions from Intercity services and will support our efforts to decarbonise Scotland’s railways.”
Further details on this announcement will be shared when the contract notice is published in the coming weeks.

Scotland to get new Intercity fleet | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

 

[HamBuoy]

I wonder what is happening, on 3rd September Scottish Government indicated tender in coming weeks, now 5-6 weeks later and nothing since.

Scotland to get new Intercity fleet | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

Yes, it has definitely gone quiet. The only thing which has some relation is this from the Accessible Travel Framework which was published a week ago.

Support and collaborate on the ScotRail rolling stock replacement programme to ensure carriages are accessible and that new carriage designs support level boarding.