What should replace the Class 365 [Great Northern]?

[Minstral25]

Wouldn't bother with 379s south of the river. They're AC only. Its easier to send units that are already AC/DC down...

Converting 379s to DC wouldn't be insurmountable but is work, thats why most suggestions on here are cascading 387s from GN using the 379s as the 387s can also run on DC.

I am only speculating of course and understand the desire for 379's on GN as they are nice units.

Whichever Electrostar is used to replace the Class 171's going to East Midlands they will need converting to Battery (or Genset) operation to run on Marshlink & Uckfield as I can't see either line being electrified in near future. I am assuming an Electrostar would be used for this purpose to help with coupling in emergency etc. If a rebuild to add battery is required it is unlikely to cost much more to add third rail shoes at the same time - so the 379's would be the only known spare units for this work.

Also why allocate 30 Class 379's to GN knowing they will always need top ups with Class 387's to compete the service requirement when there are enough 387's around to do that anyway. Can't see the non-air conditioned 365's coming back either as GTR are making a play about removing the only units without Air-con.

The 377's on SE are unlikely to come back as they work well alongside the 375's and have work allocated already. The 707's don't seem to be replacing them but replacing older Networkers again.

Where does this idea about low utilisation of 455s come from? There were at least 40 weekday diagrams for them prior to Covid, most of which were formed as 8-car all day. There *was* some speculation that there would be lower utilisation in the May 2018 timetable and I think GTR even announced this but in the end it didn't happen, presumably because it wasn't possible to increase utilisation of 377s to eliminate the 455s.

They work almost all services from London Bridge via Tulse Hill to Beckenham Junction and Caterham and Victoria to Epsom Downs via Crystal Palace. They also work off-peak London Bridge to Coulsdon South services. In the peak, these are switched to work London Bridge to Sutton via Tulse Hill services. There are a few others used on other routes to position them.

That is not to say that their use could not be eliminated by better matching capacity to the 377 fleet in the light of the significant expected downturn in rail use.

When the original May 2018 timetable was proposed it was expected to reduce the usage of the Class 455's but it never transpired after changes were made to the plans and their utilisation remained high.

It is going to be hard to reduce GTR fleet usage by 20% as the downturn will come partially back. Plus no local MP will want to have their level of service cut (especially as much of Southern's network is Metro or Tory shires) and there will be a lot of adverse comments if shorter trains are used (Social Distancing etc). So I'd not expect class 377 usage reduction to really make an inroad into the 455 fleet.

It still leaves a problem that the 455's are old and worn out - there are no suitable fleets becoming free in the near future that could replace them. Class 458's are the only possibility I think and they would need reconfiguration to remove a coach and add DOO, plus are completely different from everything else on the line so a lot of maintenance set up, maintenance training and driver training would be required as well which is very expensive. Probably better to keep 455's running until a replacement fleet can be sought in a few years, possibly on TfL's Overground budget.

 

[Mollman]

Why transfer a batch of 377s when the GN already operates the Class 387s which can't be used together in passenger service as far as I'm aware? Much better to cascade the GX Class 387s and use a batch of Class 377s for the GX services made available by a new order to cascade the 455s, 313s and 171s.

That way, you have two train types in the GN fleet, Class 387s for the Outer Suburban's and Class 717s for the Metros.

I wasn't aware that they were incompatible, I naïvely assumed that as they were built by the same manufacturer with the same product name they would be!

No need. A contraction of 20% in the Southern fleet eliminates 313s and 455s without any need for additional rolling stock. That ought to be easily achievable with the reduction in demand and ought to be what the DfT is asking TSGN to implement.

What happens when demand will return? 20% is a lot, electrostars also have the problem of not being in production anymore, you can't just order some new ones when demand does come back and I doubt Southern want a seperate fleet. To me, 379s cascading most 387s to Southern and 377s at SE getting cascaded when their new metro fleet comes (and ordered at some point...) to replace the 313s and 455s makes the most sense. Worth remembering that the 379s aren't available yet and will likely be the last to go from GA while SE doesn't have a new order of trains yet, it could be a few years....

As @Energy says, my point was in relation to what happens if / when demand returns rather than an at present situation.

 

[bramling]

As I've said many times prior as the Southern Class 455 fleet are diagrammed to form mostly 8 car services, why not order 26 Class 700s in 8 car formations which would be enough to scrap the entire Class 455 fleet and operate ex Class 455 services as 8 cars permanently with upgrades such as WiFi, power sockets and maybe most important toilets.

Surely that depends on if the DFT are willing to fund a new-build fleet? We’ve had little indication over the last year as to whether the recent trend to buy new is likely to continue.

Plus they could just as easily do a Metro fleet replacement for Southeastern, and cascade over the 376s, which would then be fairly common with the rest of Southern’s Electrostar fleet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

cascade over the 376s, which would then be fairly common with the rest of Southern’s Electrostar fleet.

apart from the lack of gangways, lack of toilets, lack of air conditioning and also lack of compatibility with 377s in service

 

[Aictos]

Surely that depends on if the DFT are willing to fund a new-build fleet? We’ve had little indication over the last year as to whether the recent trend to buy new is likely to continue.

Plus they could just as easily do a Metro fleet replacement for Southeastern, and cascade over the 376s, which would then be fairly common with the rest of Southern’s Electrostar fleet.

Class 376s don't have DOO cameras though and they can't work in multiple with the Class 377s?, the Class 375s on the other hand are 377s minus a different coupling and DOO cameras.

As to what could replace the Class 365s, I know it's not going to be popular with the DfT but why not just keep the fleet in service with a refurbishment to deliver wifi, onboard CCTV and power sockets? Is that asking too much?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It still leaves a problem that the 455's are old and worn out - there are no suitable fleets becoming free in the near future that could replace them. Class 458's are the only possibility I think and they would need reconfiguration to remove a coach and add DOO, plus are completely different from everything else on the line so a lot of maintenance set up, maintenance training and driver training would be required as well which is very expensive. Probably better to keep 455's running until a replacement fleet can be sought in a few years, possibly on TfL's Overground budget.

That will be the train that won the Gold Award in the 2020 Golden Spanner awards

 

[Mikey C]

Class 376s don't have DOO cameras though and they can't work in multiple with the Class 377s?, the Class 375s on the other hand are 377s minus a different coupling and DOO cameras.

The 455s are mainly operating on Metro services though, and the 376s are Metro trains. It would seem odd to have London Metro stock elsewhere operating with trains designed to cram in standees (700, 707, 717, 701, 710) whereas the Southern Metro services ended up with say displaced 377s.

It would be pretty retrograde too if Southeastern ended up having to give back its 377s and reintroduce 465/9s onto more longer distance routes again

 

[Aictos]

The 455s are mainly operating on Metro services though, and the 376s are Metro trains. It would seem odd to have London Metro stock elsewhere operating with trains designed to cram in standees (700, 707, 717, 701, 710) whereas the Southern Metro services ended up with say displaced 377s.

It would be pretty retrograde too if Southeastern ended up having to give back its 377s and reintroduce 465/9s onto more longer distance routes again

Which is why I said a internal cascade should be possible with a potential Class 700 type doing all Metro work with cascaded 377s covering the 377s/313s duties as a general pool with a batch of 377s being fitted with batteries to cascade the 171s to EMR.

Equally a more simpler approach and one that will bring howls of protest from all here is for Great Northern/Thameslink services except the Moorgate services to replace the 365s with a second batch of 700s.
You would only need 7 Class 700/1s or 10 Class 700/0s to replace the entire Class 365 fleet as barest minimum, add 3 for maintenance/spare cover etc and it's still much more efficient then the Class 365 fleet as being part of a general pool meaning that the second batch of 700s could one day work Kings Cross to Kings Lynn, ECS to Cambridge to position for a working to Brighton then back again (I don't have knowledge of diagramming but it is just a example).

 

[Domh245]

The main issue with the 376s is that they're 5 cars - lack of aircon, interoperability with 377s, or onboard DOO equipment means they'd be no different to the current 455s (though the latter two I'm sure would be fixable given the will & money to do so). The running of a 5/10 car train on 4/8 car metro routes, whilst work-aroundable is a nuisance

 

[JonathanH]

The main issue with the 376s is that they're 5 cars

That isn't really an issue - given Southern are using 12 3+3+4 formations on Metro services. The remainder could increase Victoria to Epsom Downs services to 10-car, although whether now is the time to be increasing 8-car formations to 10-car is another matter.

A refurbishment could probably install air conditioning using the modules fitted to 377s. Even DOO equipment could be retrofitted if it is possible to fit it to it to Turbos.

Clearly what they can't easily do directly replace 455s on the 8-car routes, unless the fall in demand means 5-car trains can easily replace 8-car ones on some services.

 

[Domh245]

Clearly what they can't easily do directly replace 455s on the 8-car routes, unless the fall in demand means 5-car trains can easily replace 8-car ones on some services.

That's the "showstopper" issue I was thinking of! I suppose it depends how many diagrams are actually limited to 8 car, and then potentially putting refurbished 376s onto services to release 8 car 377s for those - but that's getting rather off topic for 365s!

 

[XAM2175]

That will be the train that won the Gold Award in the 2020 Golden Spanner awards

View attachment 93366

Being pedantic - it appears to have won the Gold Award in the Ex-BR EMU category, which is somewhat less broad of a field than you're suggesting.

It also doesn't obviate any of @Minstral25's points, as they concerned the difficulty of transferring the fleet rather than its current reliability.

 

[Minstral25]

That will be the train that won the Gold Award in the 2020 Golden Spanner awards

View attachment 93366

Being pedantic - it appears to have won the Gold Award in the Ex-BR EMU category, which is somewhat less broad of a field than you're suggesting.

It also doesn't obviate any of @Minstral25's points, as they concerned the difficulty of transferring the fleet rather than its current reliability.

To be fair the Class 455 is a reliable warhorse for the railways but they lack many modern amenities such as Air Conditioning and possibly other less obvious like SDO, Load monitoring, maintenance sensors etc. so at some point due to age and need to provide a modern train they will need replacing and there is no obvious direct replacement.

Suggestion of 376's are unlikely as they are currently doing a job and no planned replacement on the way. They also are 5 car so would need to release 4 car trains on other routes which is made more tricky as the sets they will replace are formed of 4+3+3 in the most part (Other than where they are 5+5 which wouldn't be replaced). They also don't have Air con so again unlikely as not an upgrade.

The thread asks what will replace the 365's, truth is they have been replaced by a combination of 387's and 700's already. There is a possibility that 379's might come but I don't agree that is a slam dunk. Why create a split fleet at GN when it could be fully 387/700 north of Finsbury Park on GN/Thameslink?

I think they need a unit to take on Uckfield and I suspect the 379's as battery propulsion is a likely answer. Reason is they are an available fleet but I accept that other fleets could do the job but they are not currently available without a shuffle. The hardest thing is knowing what may happen with rundown of services and what existing fleets will have spare capacity.

 

[Fincra5]

Using 379s wouldn't create anymore of a split fleet for GN than it has already, 379s take over 387s. (387s come south). Leaves GN with 379s and 717s - and the 700s that also operate some GN services.

The issue with 379s south of the river is making them DV. Then if you add batteries, what do you remove, the AC equipment to make space under the PTSOL or the traction equipment from the MOSL (like the prototype 379 BEMU had as it needed AC), which makes the unit slower - fine down the Branch but less so where it gets busy in South London. - Although this is slightly off topic.

 

[Minstral25]

Using 379s wouldn't create anymore of a split fleet for GN than it has already, 379s take over 387s. (387s come south). Leaves GN with 379s and 717s - and the 700s that also operate some GN services.

Depends on numbers and availability but works with a reduction of services on GN - i.e. no peak services. However if you need 31 units there are no spare 379's to send over so you have to add a 387 from elsewhere, whereas with 387's there are others coming spare like 6 from c2c next year and GatEx have units spare now as a stopgap.

The issue with 379s south of the river is making them DV. Then if you add batteries, what do you remove, the AC equipment to make space under the PTSOL or the traction equipment from the MOSL (like the prototype 379 BEMU had as it needed AC), which makes the unit slower - fine down the Branch but less so where it gets busy in South London. - Although this is slightly off topic.

I'll always bow to those with better technical understanding than me. My thought is that if an Electrostar with batteries is to be used on Uckfield, then these issues will arise whether it is 377/3, 377/4 or 379. So why not do a bit extra work on a fleet which is both available and a better internal replacement for 171's to make them DC operable. Uckfield line are used to their comfortable units and seem to have political clout to keep them, on which basis I can't see 376's or metro 377's being used.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

To be fair the Class 455 is a reliable warhorse for the railways but they lack many modern amenities such as Air Conditioning and possibly other less obvious like SDO, Load monitoring, maintenance sensors etc. so at some point due to age and need to provide a modern train they will need replacing and there is no obvious direct replacement.

Suggestion of 376's are unlikely as they are currently doing a job and no planned replacement on the way. They also are 5 car so would need to release 4 car trains on other routes which is made more tricky as the sets they will replace are formed of 4+3+3 in the most part (Other than where they are 5+5 which wouldn't be replaced). They also don't have Air con so again unlikely as not an upgrade.

The thread asks what will replace the 365's, truth is they have been replaced by a combination of 387's and 700's already. There is a possibility that 379's might come but I don't agree that is a slam dunk. Why create a split fleet at GN when it could be fully 387/700 north of Finsbury Park on GN/Thameslink?

I think they need a unit to take on Uckfield and I suspect the 379's as battery propulsion is a likely answer. Reason is they are an available fleet but I accept that other fleets could do the job but they are not currently available without a shuffle. The hardest thing is knowing what may happen with rundown of services and what existing fleets will have spare capacity.

The fact they aren't over complicated with techie stuff makes them reliable but in the long run anything without air con isn't going to wash with the travelling public and certainly not entice them given even the most mediocre of cars now have it fitted. The 379's need to be rehomed somewhere and its not a bad shout to make that Southern or South Eastern. They just need shoegear refitting and a bit of cabling and I believe are the same generation as 375/377's so should be able to run as part of the fleet unlike 387's which can't.

 

[Domh245]

I believe are the same generation as 375/377's so should be able to run as part of the fleet unlike 387's which can't.

They're more in common with the 387s than the 375/7s - they're firmly a second gen electrostar. Making second gen electrostars work with the first generation ones isn't impossible however - the 377/6s and /7s are evidence of that

 

[Fincra5]

Depends on numbers and availability but works with a reduction of services on GN - i.e. no peak services. However if you need 31 units there are no spare 379's to send over so you have to add a 387 from elsewhere, whereas with 387's there are others coming spare like 6 from c2c next year and GatEx have units spare now as a stopgap.



I'll always bow to those with better technical understanding than me. My thought is that if an Electrostar with batteries is to be used on Uckfield, then these issues will arise whether it is 377/3, 377/4 or 379. So why not do a bit extra work on a fleet which is both available and a better internal replacement for 171's to make them DC operable. Uckfield line are used to their comfortable units and seem to have political clout to keep them, on which basis I can't see 376's or metro 377's being used.

No thats fair... There might be an internal shakeup on the TLK/GN services post-pandemic, which may or may not free up units from services that no longer run. Its all down to the "Brains" at DfT at the end of the day...

They might see a DV unit being easier to send south than a AC unit, on the face of it.