What, precisely, is amusing or noteworthy about this? (Geneva Convention)

[ExRes]

And yes folks, you too can buy Mason Cross novels from your local bookshop

This advert is brought to you by the cute lickle daughter of the author Gavin Bell and sponsored by facebook and twitter

 

[DaleCooper]

The point stands that the vast majority of schoolkids aren't going to be cadets.

Quite simply, we shouldn't have this kind of 'unofficial discipline' in schools. That's the teacher's job, and other students shouldn't be taking these measures. For this reason, it's not ethically sound. If you're punishing a majority of kids who didn't do anything wrong, that's not fair. And don't give me that 'well life is unfair' rubbish, because the truth is that things can be fairer. We should argue for things to improve, because, well, they can.

And we shouldn't be running our schools like we do the military. It's a different kettle of fish. Soldiers have to be prepared to go into warzones. Pupils sit exams. Whatever a student intends on doing later on in life, it's not the school's responsibility to get them into the Royal Marines. It's the school's responsibility to get them through their GCSEs.

I have quite a few gripes with our exam system, though it'd be off-topic to voice them here.



I also disagree that it's effective. It's not. From my experiences, it doesn't actually dissuade people from doing things because people are still willing to do them. I've suffered enough group punishments to realise that. If group punishments were truly effective, then you wouldn't need many of them. Those implementing them want those being punished to have a bad time so that the perpetrator(s) stop doing whatever they're doing out of fear of it happening again. But often, the perpetrator(s) just don't care. They'd do it again.

It's definitely not ethically sound, and while I accept it is a futile endeavour to try to change the minds of people who are much older and grew up in an environment that is different in many respects, I've made my opinions clear that it's not actually effective, either. In my experiences, it's the preserve of lazy Games teachers who get hacked off when a couple of the foreign students start speaking in Chinese and can't be bothered to punish the right people. And then they'd still speak Chinese next lesson, too. If you disagree then fine, disagree all the hell you want. But I'm not willing to defend group punishments.

And yes, I know that's not a thesis. It was a joke, DaleCooper.



What a terrible teacher. And yes, I am thinking of a worse word than 'terrible'.

When Brian threw the moneylenders out of the temple he didn't just eject those who charged exorbitant interest rates he also threw out those whose rates were reasonable and offered payment protection insurance and cashback. That was a form of collective punishment.

 

[najaB]

Collective punishment is effective only where there has been a collective failure, or where it is used to build cohesion.

As such it should be rarely used.

 

[IanD]

We used to say something similar when I was that age back in the 70s, got it from watching things like Hogan's Heroes and all those war films they used to show in the school holidays.

Of course, there was no such thing as "feedback forms" then, the teachers weren't interested in what you thought of them and if you told them you'd be on the receiving end of some singular punishment probably involving chalk or a board rubber (google them if you're not old enough). And if you complained about it to your parents you'd probably be told off for disrespecting your teachers.

Also, for some reason some parents think whatever their kids do is hilarious and want to share it with the rest of the world. Back in my day this would involve my dad telling 1 of his mates in the pub (if that) or my mum telling the neighbour over the fence and that would normally be the end of it. Social media has a lot to answer for.

 

[DaleCooper]

And yes, I know that's not a thesis. It was a joke, DaleCooper.

Speak up boy! Let the whole class hear what you have to say.

 

[AlterEgo]

And we shouldn't be running our schools like we do the military. It's a different kettle of fish. Soldiers have to be prepared to go into warzones. Pupils sit exams. Whatever a student intends on doing later on in life, it's not the school's responsibility to get them into the Royal Marines. It's the school's responsibility to get them through their GCSEs.

I have quite a few gripes with our exam system, though it'd be off-topic to voice them here.



I also disagree that it's effective. It's not. From my experiences, it doesn't actually dissuade people from doing things because people are still willing to do them. I've suffered enough group punishments to realise that. If group punishments were truly effective, then you wouldn't need many of them. Those implementing them want those being punished to have a bad time so that the perpetrator(s) stop doing whatever they're doing out of fear of it happening again. But often, the perpetrator(s) just don't care. They'd do it again'
.

The reason that collective punishment works, particularly with young people, is because it relies on the strongest urges - peer pressure. While I'm not advocating beating people up behind the bike sheds, there are a number of other ways a group of people can apply pressure to a perpetrator.

Someone once vandalised the table tennis table at work so it was taken away. We soon found out who was responsible!

Two lads at my school once had a full on fight in Tesco across the road resulting in us all being banned for a year. Yep, we knew how to apply pressure to them as well.

As a young 16yo sergeant in the Air Cadets I was on a leadership course with 30 others. I was immaculately turned out, but two people failed the inspection. We were all punished. Result: we helped the stragglers like we should have been doing from the start.

Collective punishment in one form or another exists in all walks of life and is part of life's rich tapestry. I don't see why it shouldn't be done in schools if the perpetrator can't be found by whoever is in authority.

Bitching "it's not fair" may as well be "blah blah blah blah" to me. Life certainly is not fair and is never going to be fair, and your top lesson to learn as a young person is how to cope with that fact. This is a more important skill than learning how to write eloquent replies on Internet forums, I can assure you!

 

[yorkie]

The reason that collective punishment works, particularly with young people, is because it relies on the strongest urges - peer pressure....

...Someone once vandalised the table tennis table at work so it was taken away. We soon found out who was responsible!....!

I'm thinking denying access to something like a reward or extra facility (such as this example above) while some are behaving badly may be a bit different to issuing a punishment such as the example given by Busaholic, namely a detention for everyone in a class due to some people having badly.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm thinking denying access to something like a reward or extra facility (such as this example above) while some are behaving badly may be a bit different to issuing a punishment such as the example given by Busaholic, namely a detention for everyone in a class due to some people having badly.

Yes, I agree that detaining the whole class is excessive for one or two miscreants.

 

[backontrack]

Speak up boy! Let the whole class hear what you have to say.

And yes, I know that's not a thesis. It was a joke, DaleCooper.

 

[backontrack]

I'm thinking denying access to something like a reward or extra facility (such as this example above) while some are behaving badly may be a bit different to issuing a punishment such as the example given by Busaholic, namely a detention for everyone in a class due to some people having badly.

Yeah, I'm talking about more severe examples. If it's just denying people a ping-pong table, that's different.

It's pointless to accuse me of 'bitching' about it when it's an issue, AlterEgo. And of course you did have to revert to 'life's not fair' etc., the one argument people always pull out when they can't be arsed to actually do anything about it.

It's not enough to take the 'I'm all right Jack' route anymore, because increasingly people aren't alright with group punishments. And my age doesn't make my opinion any less valid, by the way, and I doubt my opinion will be different when I'm older.

I feel like my argument has now found its conclusion. You will not change my opinion, and I admit I'm unlikely to change yours, so let's call it quits. I've made my opinion clear, that's all that matters.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah, I'm talking about more severe examples. If it's just denying people a ping-pong table, that's different.

It's pointless to accuse me of 'bitching' about it when it's an issue. And of course you did have to revert to 'life's not fair' etc., the one argument people always pull out when they can't be arsed to actually do anything about it.

I am sure you will feel differently when you are older and better apprised of human nature. Honest to God, hand on heart, life is not fair and not set up to be fair in any corner of the world, and unless we're talking about really egregious injustices at school then I honestly think you're better off exposed to it as soon as possible.

I have spent a long time trying to make - in some small way - life a bit fairer. I used to work handling complaints from people who'd been dumped on royally by train companies and now I work for a market regulator. None of that experience changes my view that learning about how to cope with injustices meted out to you is a fundamental skill. It's one of the things I value most from my time in the cadets. Sometimes you even benefit from injustice.

I try to be philosophical and somewhat detached in life, which hopefully explains my approach. I don't get terribly exercised about justice, or inequality, whether it happens to me or anyone else, as long as I have my own dignity and security.

That's life.

 

[backontrack]

I am sure you will feel differently when you are older and better apprised of human nature. Honest to God, hand on heart, life is not fair and not set up to be fair in any corner of the world, and unless we're talking about really egregious injustices at school then I honestly think you're better off exposed to it as soon as possible.

Nah. And I saw this argument coming.

I don't think I've gained anything from group punishments. When I'm older and wiser, my opinion will still be the same.

I have spent a long time trying to make - in some small way - life a bit fairer. I used to work handling complaints from people who'd been dumped on royally by train companies and now I work for a market regulator. None of that experience changes my view that learning about how to cope with injustices meted out to you is a fundamental skill. It's one of the things I value most from my time in the cadets. Sometimes you even benefit from injustice.

I try to be philosophical and somewhat detached in life, which hopefully explains my approach. I don't get terribly exercised about justice, or inequality, whether it happens to me or anyone else, as long as I have my own dignity and security.

That's life.

There are all sorts of other ways in life that people can experience injustices and learn from them. From what I have seen of group punishments, they just turn people against others. What sort of life-lesson do you get from that? Ethically it's obviously not sound, and you don't learn anything from it, you just hate the teacher. And I've already explained how it doesn't actually work. Your experience of group punishments seems to be not being allowed to go to Tesco's. I'd say that mine has been worse than that. Maybe the whole thing works for the military, but you can keep that approach away from other areas of life, thank you very much.

I have had to experience a series of injustices caused by group punishments. I've seen people running until they throw up because of lazy hack games teachers who can't impose a punishment on a particular person. At school. Most sports teachers seem to think that everyone in their class has to become a rugby or hockey player when they're older, that sport is all that matters. Most of the non-squad group are overseas students who have never held a hockey stick before. If they're bad at it, then the teacher thinks they're 'disrespecting' him and we all do sprints for over an hour. Running pumps you up to a certain extent and, having to keep running again and again, I have never felt so much raw anger towards a single human being as I have during those games lessons. No, if you're bad at sport, then you're not disrespecting him. He needs to understand that. These teachers...they need to get a ****ing grip.

Rant over.

 

[najaB]

And I've already explained how it doesn't actually work. Your experience of group punishments seems to be not being allowed to go to Tesco's. I'd say that mine has been worse than that.

Which, to me at least, shows that the problem isn't the concept of collective punishment, but rather the nature of the punishment that is meted out.

If we believe in the idea that there are some things which are a collective responsibility, then on the flipside there must be collective consequences.

 

[backontrack]

Which, to me at least, shows that the problem isn't the concept of collective punishment, but rather the nature of the punishment that is meted out.

If we believe in the idea that there are some things which are a collective responsibility, then on the flipside there must be collective consequences.

But sometimes people are punished for something that isn't a collective responsibility.

 

[SS4]

I always hated collective punishment and it never worked in a school setting largely because those pupils it was used had no shame and frankly didn't care if their behaviour affected everyone else. That latter clause perpetually hampered my school days as they'd mess around when I just wanted to learn (especially in maths). Of course data is not the plural of anecdote so my experiences may not be representative.

I hope the suggestion to bring back the cane was made in jest - that's just using cruelty to make people respect you out of fear

As for the OP has anyone considered the possibility of it being faked by the father as a plug for his own work?

 

[backontrack]

I always hated collective punishment and it never worked in a school setting largely because those pupils it was used had no shame and frankly didn't care if their behaviour affected everyone else. That latter clause perpetually hampered my school days as they'd mess around when I just wanted to learn (especially in maths). Of course data is not the plural of anecdote so my experiences may not be representative.

I definitely agree. The perpetrators have no shame, and they don't care what we have to do.

I hope the suggestion to bring back the cane was made in jest - that's just using cruelty to make people respect you out of fear

Once again, agreed.

 

[najaB]

But sometimes people are punished for something that isn't a collective responsibility.

So again, that sounds like it's not the concept at fault but how and when it is applied.

 

[backontrack]

So again, that sounds like it's not the concept at fault but how and when it is applied.

Agreed. I doubt our schools are the correct environment for it.

 

[DaleCooper]

I hope the suggestion to bring back the cane was made in jest - that's just using cruelty to make people respect you out of fear

As one who has experienced corporal punishment I can tell you that I never feared it, I preferred to get the punishment out of the way quickly rather than sit in detention for an hour. In spite of the foregoing I do not condone the use of the cane.

 

[najaB]

Agreed. I doubt our schools are the correct environment for it.

They can be - when the responsibility and potential consequences are spelled out at the offset. The problems you are describing arise from punishments that are applied indiscriminately which are out of all proportion to the transgression (if any) that was being punished.

Withholding a treat is a more effective punishment than some of what you've described, and penalising a class because one person didn't meet a standard only works if there was a viable way for the others to help them meet that standard. Otherwise it just breeds resentment towards either the teacher or the person who didn't meet the target, much as you described.

Collective punishment works where there is a clear objective that everyone in the group can contribute towards meeting, regardless of physical or academic ability. In a school setting, an example might be that the class gets 30 minutes of free time on a Friday afternoon if the classroom has been tidy at the end of the day Monday to Thursday, otherwise they have to (just making this up on the fly) spend that 30 minutes tidying up the playground.

 

[takno]

As for the OP has anyone considered the possibility of it being faked by the father as a plug for his own work?

I saw it retweeted once, thought it was mildly amusing and then skipped past it the other 3 times I saw it. Never at any point occurred to me to look who tweeted it in the first place. Does anybody do that?

 

[ExRes]

As for the OP has anyone considered the possibility of it being faked by the father as a plug for his own work?

Yes, please see post #31

 

[DaleCooper]

Yes, please see post #31

I wondered what you were on about in that post but I was too apathetic to ask.

 

[AlterEgo]

I saw it retweeted once, thought it was mildly amusing and then skipped past it the other 3 times I saw it. Never at any point occurred to me to look who tweeted it in the first place. Does anybody do that?

Yes, the BBC, who managed to mention he was an author.

 

[ExRes]

I wondered what you were on about in that post but I was too apathetic to ask.

There is a hidden benefit of apathy I guess, nobody ever judges you because they can't be bothered

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Collective punishment was the bane of my life at school. It was really demoralising to see a clean record go up in smoke for something you didn't do.

My prep school had a house point system which, while good on paper, had the rule of reporting every lost house point to your head of house, and mine was a Goldfinger-lookalike bully who openly said in the first house meeting that the slightest slip-up would result in the hairdryer treatment. Music lessons ended up being a twice-weekly torture, especially in the run-up to Christmas; I remember once my entire year was dragged out of classes and lined up in the music room like a Roman Army cohort about to undergo decimation, with random students being tested and docked house points in between runthroughs. I was, quite literally, saved by the bell in that instance.

When I left school, a student's misbehaviour resulted in the leaving do, buffet lunch and final handshake being yanked as the student hadn't confessed (even though he did). We managed to sneak the concert in, but I left school not so much under a cloud as a force 12 hurricane (more so after the school sent out a letter branding us all troublemakers) and games against Arsenal (who the deputy head supported) took on a very personal edge until Wenger's 1000th game.

However, I can't even escape it having left school; back in February 2015 I feared that UEFA would impose it on innocent fans after seeing people on twitter call for expulsion from Europe (coming from a university professor, no less!) and a travel ban, which would have seen my trips to watch Winchester City and my 2015 ALR go up in smoke (not that I'd have observed it, I'd have gone to watch Winchester City and gone on holiday regardless) and I also feared vigilante attacks from the far left when I went to watch Chelsea the following Saturday.