What powers do station security actually have?

[Howardh]

Thinking not of railway police, or even guards, but the contracted out security eg G4S and the like.

Simple questions -
do you HAVE to show them your ticket
can they physicaly detain you, using force if necessary
do you HAVE to give them your name and address if asked
do you HAVE to show them any ID if they ask?

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

What is the legal situation, and what can they do is someone refuses their request?

 

[Clip]

Thinking not of railway police, or even guards, but the contracted out security eg G4S and the like.

Simple questions -
do you HAVE to show them your ticket- If they are authorised by the TOC then yes you do
can they physicaly detain you, using force if necessary Depends. I could detain you if I had reason to.
do you HAVE to give them your name and address if askedIf its in relation to tickets then yes as you are committing a byelaw offence if you do not.
do you HAVE to show them any ID if they ask?No. But as a good citizen maybe you would feel obligated to if you thought you had not done anything wrong

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

What is the legal situation, and what can they do is someone refuses their request?

Depends what the request is and in relation to what.

 

[LUL]

Thinking not of railway police, or even guards, but the contracted out security eg G4S and the like.

Simple questions -
do you HAVE to show them your ticket
can they physicaly detain you, using force if necessary
do you HAVE to give them your name and address if asked
do you HAVE to show them any ID if they ask?

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

What is the legal situation, and what can they do is someone refuses their request?

In a nutshell the vast majority of the time they can do all of the above, but no TOC will support use of force if someone wants to walk away. When you purchase a ticket you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use and have to abide by there conditions of carriage. Have a skim for the below links, it will show you your obligations and how it can be enforced.



https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
http://www.southernrailway.com/download/11356.8/national-rail-conditions-of-carriage-5-oct-2011/

 

[DelayRepay]

Also remember that the railway is private property and security guards are employed (possibly indirectly) by the landowner/landlord. The fact that they are not directly employed by the TOC/Network Rail doesn't really alter their powers.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with the previous replies, but I disagree with the conclusion to this part of the OP's own question:

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

If we imagine for a moment that security personnel authorised in revenue protection duties somehow did not have the authority to inspect tickets and identify fares due, then it would still be helpful in maintaining public order, safety, security and in providing some confidence in passenger's safety if there were visible security staff on duty at many stations.

The OP's opinion "that they are public in uniform" would be an unwise attitude to adopt if questionned by any railway staff in the course of carrying out their professional duties, irregardless of who their direct employer might be.

 

[dysonsphere]

One of the biggest problems seems to be failing to wear any form of ID and when challenged for their name they will refuse to give it even tough they are obligied to and then become threating and offer to remove you from the station.

 

[Antman]

Thinking not of railway police, or even guards, but the contracted out security eg G4S and the like.

Simple questions -
do you HAVE to show them your ticket
can they physicaly detain you, using force if necessary
do you HAVE to give them your name and address if asked
do you HAVE to show them any ID if they ask?

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

What is the legal situation, and what can they do is someone refuses their request?

In principle anybody can make a citizens arrest although they could also end up on an assault charge if their actions were not justified, I agree that they are really 'public in uniform' although probably better than nothing rather like PCSO's.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One of the biggest problems seems to be failing to wear any form of ID and when challenged for their name they will refuse to give it even tough they are obligied to and then become threating and offer to remove you from the station.

Hmmm. It appears to me that one of the 'problems' is that some passengers don't behave appropriately when THEY are challenged (and when they are asked to provide their name).

 

[dysonsphere]

Hmmm. It appears to me that one of the 'problems' is that some passengers don't behave appropriately when THEY are challenged (and when they are asked to provide their name).

Er had already shown ticket and was refused entry as ticket wasnt valid for 15 mins and I said I would rather sit in waiting room rather than stand on pavement in rain. I asked for his name in order to make a complaint as there is no reason to refuse entry for the reason given, many people wait in waiting rooms for correct train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One of the biggest problems seems to be . . . .

Er had already shown ticket and was . . .
. . I asked for his name in order to make a complaint .. .

ER, indeed.

We seem to be trying to conflate "one of the biggest problems" with a personal incident. Which do you want? A gripe about an incident with which you were unhappy. Or a discussion about "one of the biggest problems" in respect of the powers afforded to Revenue staff?

 

[dysonsphere]

ER, indeed.

We seem to be trying to conflate "one of the biggest problems" with a personal incident. Which do you want? A gripe about an incident with which you were unhappy. Or a discussion about "one of the biggest problems" in respect of the powers afforded to Revenue staff?

Well I could have asked is that within their powers to refuse entry on the above grounds, but I assumed people would guess that was what I meant.

 

[Howardh]

Thanks for the interesting replies. One question (probably on the lines of making a citizens arrest as we can) can they chase after you, physically force you to stop using *reasonable* force until a higher authority arrives? Can they even touch an under 18??

Ha - I'm not asking because I'm thinking of trying anything on (what, me, run??) I'm just interested because amore and more "security" is being used (football, shops etc) and because they have a uniform on I doubt whether they have any more powers than I do. Check a ticket as part of their designated job - sure. Physically detain someone against their wishes even if they had done wrong?? Any cases one way ot the other??

 

[dysonsphere]

Thanks for the interesting replies. One question (probably on the lines of making a citizens arrest as we can) can they chase after you, physically force you to stop using *reasonable* force until a higher authority arrives? Can they even touch an under 18??

Ha - I'm not asking because I'm thinking of trying anything on (what, me, run??) I'm just interested because amore and more "security" is being used (football, shops etc) and because they have a uniform on I doubt whether they have any more powers than I do. Check a ticket as part of their designated job - sure. Physically detain someone against their wishes even if they had done wrong?? Any cases one way ot the other??

Well they would have to be damm sure they were right otherwise you would probably have a civil claim against them and they would be facing an assult charge.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Well I could have asked is that within their powers to refuse entry on the above grounds, but I assumed people would guess that was what I meant.

Yes. That follows from the replies already given. It is private property you are asking about, and any officer of the railway may regulate the movement of the public in any way they see fit.
This has nothing to do with "the big problem" of staff ID and nothing to do with tickets and train times which you've mentioned in the specific incident.

 

[Antman]

Thanks for the interesting replies. One question (probably on the lines of making a citizens arrest as we can) can they chase after you, physically force you to stop using *reasonable* force until a higher authority arrives? Can they even touch an under 18??

Ha - I'm not asking because I'm thinking of trying anything on (what, me, run??) I'm just interested because amore and more "security" is being used (football, shops etc) and because they have a uniform on I doubt whether they have any more powers than I do. Check a ticket as part of their designated job - sure. Physically detain someone against their wishes even if they had done wrong?? Any cases one way ot the other??

They can physically stop you even if you are under 18 although they would have to be able to justify their actions to the police. Basically if you found a burglar in your house you could detain them until the police arrive using reasonable force, exceed that and you'll probably be on an assault charge so you decide!

 

[LowLevel]

It's something generally shied away from but if a person can't be identified the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 does allow a railway official to use reasonable force to detain someone in certain circumstances. One is a refusal to provide details until a constable arrives to bring them before a magistrate.

I personally would be very reluctant to use any force at all over a ticketing issue. If I felt someone was going to throw themselves under a train imminently however I would be more likely to intervene physically if I felt it was safe to do so.

The one time I've nearly intervened in such a matter in reality was when a police officer seemed to be losing a fight against someone who had been accused of assault. He got the upper hand back though before I had to weigh in and told me afterwards that I would have had more than adequate defence in law for doing so.

I suspect most people would be quite shocked at the level of authority they place themselves under by willingly using the railway.

 

[EM2]

Well I could have asked is that within their powers to refuse entry on the above grounds, but I assumed people would guess that was what I meant.

There could be any number of reasons why they would not let you use a waiting room. Maybe other staff have instructed them that it's already full. Maybe the doors are stuck shut. Maybe there's some other defect that means it's out of use.

 

[Howardh]

It's something generally shied away from but if a person can't be identified the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 does allow a railway official to use reasonable force to detain someone in certain circumstances. One is a refusal to provide details until a constable arrives to bring them before a magistrate.

I personally would be very reluctant to use any force at all over a ticketing issue. If I felt someone was going to throw themselves under a train imminently however I would be more likely to intervene physically if I felt it was safe to do so.

The one time I've nearly intervened in such a matter in reality was when a police officer seemed to be losing a fight against someone who had been accused of assault. He got the upper hand back though before I had to weigh in and told me afterwards that I would have had more than adequate defence in law for doing so.

I suspect most people would be quite shocked at the level of authority they place themselves under by willingly using the railway.

If a police officer asks staff/security/general public to assist in detaining a suspect - and they do assist, what's the legal situation for the member of the public if the suspect then goes on to accuse them of assault? Thinking most would want to help out - but the consequences must go through your head? Maybe the best solution, for guards/staff etc is just to let them go as somewhere along the line (maybe the first station they got on the train) there may be CCTV to eventually identify them, especially if they are already known?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There could be any number of reasons why they would not let you use a waiting room. Maybe other staff have instructed them that it's already full. Maybe the doors are stuck shut. Maybe there's some other defect that means it's out of use.

At Bolton it's miserable inside the 3/4 waiting room, like a wind tunnel if someone even walks past the door and triggers it! Notice people gather outside the toilets now where there is just the one door and radiators

 

[DelayRepay]

If a police officer asks staff/security/general public to assist in detaining a suspect - and they do assist, what's the legal situation for the member of the public if the suspect then goes on to accuse them of assault?

I imagine it would depend on how much force the member of the public used, but if the level of force was reasonable in the circumstances, then I think assisting a police officer to detain an offender would provide a solid defence.

In reality I doubt a police officer would ask a member of the public to assist in making an arrest except for in the most extreme circumstances.

I know in the town centre at night, it is not unknown for nightclub door staff to go to the assistance of the police if there is a disturbance, but they are trained and licensed security guards.

 

[EM2]

...they are trained and licensed security guards.

As are staff supplied by G4S, STM etc. They all have (or should have) an SIA licence.

 

[Wolfie]

Thinking not of railway police, or even guards, but the contracted out security eg G4S and the like.

Simple questions -
do you HAVE to show them your ticket
can they physicaly detain you, using force if necessary
do you HAVE to give them your name and address if asked
do you HAVE to show them any ID if they ask?

Basically they are public in uniform in my eyes, but if the answer isn't *yes* by law to all of the above, then there's no point of having them as people without tickets or trespassing can simply walk away?

What is the legal situation, and what can they do is someone refuses their request?

In a nutshell the vast majority of the time they can do all of the above, but no TOC will support use of force if someone wants to walk away. When you purchase a ticket you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use and have to abide by there conditions of carriage. Have a skim for the below links, it will show you your obligations and how it can be enforced.



https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
http://www.southernrailway.com/download/11356.8/national-rail-conditions-of-carriage-5-oct-2011/

my bold

I would massively take issue with your statement that they can demand ID with the sole exception being sight of a photocard to go with a season ticket. We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID (including a driving license when driving) in this country and no-one, particularly a private security person, has any right to demand the production of such.

 

[HowardGWR]

]

Just a 'by the way'.

Do you realise that the moniker you have chosen only produces an amused raised eyebrow with some of us?

If in doubt, just type it into Google and ask for what it means in Dutch and you will discover. I once wrote to the London Underground people about it and it caused much amusement there.

 

[DownSouth]

Do you realise that the moniker you have chosen only produces an amused raised eyebrow with some of us?

If in doubt, just type it into Google and ask for what it means in Dutch and you will discover. I once wrote to the London Underground people about it and it caused much amusement there.

Slightly off topic, but back in the 1960's, when Jack Brabham and Ron Tauranac started their Formula 1 team it was originally called Motor Racing Developments, until someone point out what the MRD acronym sounded like to a French person when spoken fast. The team was quickly renamed to become Brabham, and so the French word for crap became slightly responsible for him becoming the first and so far only F1 driver to win a World Championship for a team bearing his own name.

 

[muz379]

In lots of instances there will be security guards/revenue staff that might seem to have very little powers , and so the argument is put well this doesnt really stop anybody . Well no it doesn't stop the most determined shoplifters/fare evaders/football hooligans/nightclub brawlers . However for a vast majority of people it acts as a deterrent . And you have to wonder how many people who have not been given an opportunity to buy or have walked past several would pay up / be dealt with if it weren't for the likes of the STM revenue staff at Picadilly and Victoria .

If a police officer asks staff/security/general public to assist in detaining a suspect - and they do assist, what's the legal situation for the member of the public if the suspect then goes on to accuse them of assault? Thinking most would want to help out - but the consequences must go through your head? Maybe the best solution, for guards/staff etc is just to let them go as somewhere along the line (maybe the first station they got on the train) there may be CCTV to eventually identify them, especially if they are already known?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Id have no issue assisting a police officer if it was needed .
Assuming that you dont go overboard and end up getting arrested yourself at the time by the police
Id suspect that the person accusing you of assault would be told not to be silly by the police . But then if they insisted on reporting a crime the CPS would take one look at the case and throw it out .

As has already been said we all have the right to use reasonable force in self defence or to detain someone who has or is about to commit certain types of offence .

my bold

I would massively take issue with your statement that they can demand ID with the sole exception being sight of a photocard to go with a season ticket. We do not have a legal obligation to carry ID (including a driving license when driving) in this country and no-one, particularly a private security person, has any right to demand the production of such.

They cant demand ID . They can however request to see it for the purposes of verifying someones details .Even the police can only demand to see your driving licence if you are actually driving although a lot of the time they will request to see some if they want to verify your name and address . And even then you are not required to carry it with you , I know loads of people who dont keep their driving licence in their wallet

 

[headshot119]

As are staff supplied by G4S, STM etc. They all have (or should have) an SIA licence.

Which they MUST have on display where it can be seen. With one or two exceptions this would be breaking the conditions of the SIA license.

 

[LateThanNever]

They cant demand ID . They can however request to see it for the purposes of verifying someones details .Even the police can only demand to see your driving licence if you are actually driving although a lot of the time they will request to see some if they want to verify your name and address . And even then you are not required to carry it with you , I know loads of people who dont keep their driving licence in their wallet

They can request ID but you can also decline that request without consequence. Carrying ID is just not a requirement in the UK.
You may be obliged to give your name and address if you don't have the right (or any) ticket, but physical evidence of that address is not a requirement.

 

[bramling]

One of the biggest problems seems to be failing to wear any form of ID and when challenged for their name they will refuse to give it even tough they are obligied to and then become threating and offer to remove you from the station.

From a staff's position I've never found "security" to be particularly useful. In fact, I've found many situations have escalated once they have got involved, and when there's a really nasty situation developing they're often conspicuous by their absence.

Properly trained railway staff supported by sufficient BTP is the best arrangement, unfortunately also happens to be the most expensive setup.

 

[Antman]

From a staff's position I've never found "security" to be particularly useful. In fact, I've found many situations have escalated once they have got involved, and when there's a really nasty situation developing they're often conspicuous by their absence.

Properly trained railway staff supported by sufficient BTP is the best arrangement, unfortunately also happens to be the most expensive setup.

I totally agree, you get what you pay for. Security staff on minimum wage (or not much more) are no substitute for police officers.

 

[Bevan Price]

I agree with the previous replies, but I disagree with the conclusion to this part of the OP's own question:If we imagine for a moment that security personnel authorised in revenue protection duties somehow did not have the authority to inspect tickets and identify fares due, then it would still be helpful in maintaining public order, safety, security and in providing some confidence in passenger's safety if there were visible security staff on duty at many stations.

The OP's opinion "that they are public in uniform" would be an unwise attitude to adopt if questionned by any railway staff in the course of carrying out their professional duties, irregardless of who their direct employer might be.

The byelaws specify actions by "Qperator" or "Authorised Person". If they have no uniform (or external identification badge, etc.) , are passengers entitled to ask them to prove that they are "authorised persons" ?

There have, in the past, been occasions where people have been conned out of their tickets by persons claiming to be a "ticket collector".

 

[muz379]

They can request ID but you can also decline that request without consequence. Carrying ID is just not a requirement in the UK.
You may be obliged to give your name and address if you don't have the right (or any) ticket, but physical evidence of that address is not a requirement.

Oh I know I never said you had to accept that request . But sometimes it might be in your best interest to play along . really depends on the situation .