What makes a good livery?

[K.o.R]

Yeah, lime green specifically if I'm not mistaken. That said for what reason did railway lawmakers opt for yellow instead of green?

Old sodium yellow street lamps would reflect better off a yellow surface?

 

[Prestige15]

Sothern has done well, Their current livery has been around for more than 20 years now and still looked upto date.

I do like liveries thats very eye catching, South West Trains, Midland Mainline, Central Trains, First Group 'Barbie', The original Virgin Trains, Northern Spirit (156) Just to name a few

 

[Goldfish62]

Yeah, lime green specifically if I'm not mistaken. That said for what reason did railway lawmakers opt for yellow instead of green?

Because green is all around us. The countryside, plus of course green signals.

 

[fgwrich]

Because green is all around us. The countryside, plus of course green signals.

Not only that, but as BR’s first locos with small yellow warning panels came out at the tail end of the BR Green Era, can you imagine how that would have looked? Then onto BR Blue with green warning panels. Yellow at least is a contrasting colour to most colours, helping it to stand out more.

 

[43096]

Not only that, but as BR’s first locos with small yellow warning panels came out at the tail end of the BR Green Era, can you imagine how that would have looked? Then onto BR Blue with green warning panels. Yellow at least is a contrasting colour to most colours, helping it to stand out more.

And of course yellow is a warning colour, unlike green.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not only that, but as BR’s first locos with small yellow warning panels came out at the tail end of the BR Green Era, can you imagine how that would have looked? Then onto BR Blue with green warning panels. Yellow at least is a contrasting colour to most colours, helping it to stand out more.

Indeed, green on green wouldn't have really worked, plus green on blue would have looked hideous!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

Sothern has done well, Their current livery has been around for more than 20 years now and still looked upto date.

I do like liveries thats very eye catching, South West Trains, Midland Mainline, Central Trains, First Group 'Barbie', The original Virgin Trains, Northern Spirit (156) Just to name a few

I think the Southern livery is severely underrated. It's modern with a clever nod to the past and still looks fresh after 20 years. The logo is just brilliant.

The SWT mainline livery I always thought looked like an updated version of NSE, and was also very good, although by now the swoops look dated. I don't like the blue or red versions, though. Too garish.

I don't rate the others on your list and in particular I think First "Barbie" was one of the worst liveries ever to be inflicted on rolling stock!

Other top liveries on my list are GWT Merlin, GNER (original), London Midland and Virgin silver.

 

[ScottGallagher]

A nod to the old Prism Rail Valley Lines livery , very Welsh with dragons etc and surprised TFW didnt take inspiration from that.

 

[Nova1]

I'm a fan of the WMR livery, I think the orange+purple goes quite well together, and the orange makes sense as orange is the colour of the West Midlands Combined Authority



It's quite a simple livery with the doors a very clear different color, with the logo in a good place, and also incorporating the WMCA logo "diamonds" at the end of each unit.


And to think this abomination was a concept design, too much going on, the purple and orange colors are together but not really in a way that makes sense, white doesn't look good with this scheme and the grey along the carriage serves no purpose

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually green is the most visible colour, not yellow.

Is that the reason TfL adopted that for trams, or just coincidence?

 

[Wolfie]

I'm a fan of the WMR livery, I think the orange+purple goes quite well together, and the orange makes sense as orange is the colour of the West Midlands Combined Authority

View attachment 116075

It's quite a simple livery with the doors a very clear different color, with the logo in a good place, and also incorporating the WMCA logo "diamonds" at the end of each unit.


And to think this abomination was a concept design, too much going on, the purple and orange colors are together but not really in a way that makes sense, white doesn't look good with this scheme and the grey along the carriage serves no purpose

View attachment 116076

I'm sorry but WMR's livery, particularly after LM, is utterly dire. It looks like the aftermath of too much red wine on a Saturday night....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a fan of the WMR livery, I think the orange+purple goes quite well together, and the orange makes sense as orange is the colour of the West Midlands Combined Authority

View attachment 116075

It's quite a simple livery with the doors a very clear different color, with the logo in a good place, and also incorporating the WMCA logo "diamonds" at the end of each unit.

That one is growing on me, but would in my view be better if the diamond fade was only at the cab ends and not at both ends of each vehicle. As it is, it suffers from the "too many vertical elements" problem in my book.

My favourite WMR livery was the interim vinylled one on top of the LM colours, the silver looked good and wasn't overpowering like the purple is.

Definitely works best with the window band, too. Dark window bands pretty much always enhance a livery. The TfW 197s, which unlike all the rest of their stock don't have window bands, I think look quite bland without.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is that the reason TfL adopted that for trams, or just coincidence?

No, just a livery feature as part of the brand, like LU has red fronts and doors, and LO has orange fronts (when allowed) and doors, all with a blue skirt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A nod to the old Prism Rail Valley Lines livery , very Welsh with dragons etc and surprised TFW didnt take inspiration from that.

Yes, I was very surprised the TfW brand went for the "generic" "T" brand and a near-copy of the Greater Anglia or SBB livery. It's like every TOC that orders FLIRTs says "oh, those Swiss ones look good, best copy the livery and change it a bit". Astonished at the lack of dragons - literally everything else in Wales is covered in them!

The "T" thing feels more like a US urban transport system - I think there is one called "the T" but I forget where it is. Or the SYPTE "T".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

No, just a livery feature as part of the brand, like LU has red fronts and doors, and LO has orange fronts (when allowed) and doors, all with a blue skirt.

But why choose green for trams? The traditional colour was poppy red (as they originally used).

 

[Domh245]

But why choose green for trams? The traditional colour was poppy red (as they originally used).

Because buses (and underground) were red, and a third mode sharing the colour scheme wouldn't work?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A nod to the old Prism Rail Valley Lines livery , very Welsh with dragons etc and surprised TFW didnt take inspiration from that.

I too would have liked to see something along those lines for TfW- after all a flag-based livery works well for Scotrail. Although I do wonder if mixing red and green would be an issue for colour-blind people, particularly if one is used as the "contrasting" door colour.

 

[Goldfish62]

Although I do wonder if mixing red and green would be an issue for colour-blind people, particularly if one is used as the "contrasting" door colour.

Or it just looks horrible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I too would have liked to see something along those lines for TfW- after all a flag-based livery works well for Scotrail. Although I do wonder if mixing red and green would be an issue for colour-blind people, particularly if one is used as the "contrasting" door colour.

Solid red with green doors or vice versa would have looked terrible anyway. It was always going to be white-based, which is fine - I'm just surprised it was only red and there aren't any dragons.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Solid red with green doors or vice versa would have looked terrible anyway. It was always going to be white-based, which is fine - I'm just surprised it was only red and there aren't any dragons.

We are talking about a livery based on the Welsh flag, so the upper half would be white. The fact that a simple red/green livery would clash is irrelevant because the Welsh flag doesn't only include those colours.

Something like green lower, white upper, red doors and branding would look great- but I'm not sure if it would pass muster from an accessibility point of view because the most common form of colour-blindness affects red and green specifically. The white upper would probably mean it was compliant though.

 

[Sorcerer]

So the reason for yellow instead of green as a front is very well explained by several users, and the knowledge is very much appreciated. I must admit though, when it came to red and green suggestions for TfW, I definitely overlooked the colour-blind passenger aspect of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are talking about a livery based on the Welsh flag, so the upper half would be white. The fact that a simple red/green livery would clash is irrelevant because the Welsh flag doesn't only include those colours.

Something like green lower, white upper, red doors and branding would look great- but I'm not sure if it would pass muster from an accessibility point of view because the most common form of colour-blindness affects red and green specifically. The white upper would probably mean it was compliant though.

I reckon you'd get away with it if you just did a green skirt on what they currently have, or even just a green stripe under the window band. Enough of the door would still be differentiated.

You could add the dragon by just adding the Welsh Government logo at the inner end (as Arriva used to) in place of the web URL which is rather unnecessary, as if people want to know a website URL they use Google, not the side of a train.

 

[Sorcerer]

So with mention of green and red with white for Transport for Wales, I decided to do a quick experiment with repainting a Class 230. The doors are green rather than red, and because the roof is red the contrasting door colours should still meet the standard for being visible to the visually impaired even among colour blind people.

 

[hst43102]

So with mention of green and red with white for Transport for Wales, I decided to do a quick experiment with repainting a Class 230. The doors are green rather than red, and because the roof is red the contrasting door colours should still meet the standard for being visible to the visually impaired even among colour blind people.

View attachment 116081

I think a little more red would make that into a fantastic livery. I've applied it to a 175 here :

 

[fgwrich]

I'm a fan of the WMR livery, I think the orange+purple goes quite well together, and the orange makes sense as orange is the colour of the West Midlands Combined Authority

View attachment 116075

It's quite a simple livery with the doors a very clear different color, with the logo in a good place, and also incorporating the WMCA logo "diamonds" at the end of each unit.


And to think this abomination was a concept design, too much going on, the purple and orange colors are together but not really in a way that makes sense, white doesn't look good with this scheme and the grey along the carriage serves no purpose

View attachment 116076

I'm sorry but WMR's livery, particularly after LM, is utterly dire. It looks like the aftermath of too much red wine on a Saturday night....

Conversely, I'm of a similar opinion to you. The (as finally settled on now) WMT livery is reasonably smart and quite simple, and I think the black window band rather sets it off nicely. A complete and utter contrast to the car crash of it's sister LNW livery, which as mentioned above is far too fussy and overcomplicated.

As for the proposed livery above, that to me felt like the WMA's first attempt at copying London Overground, but with more unnecessary shapes / curves / colours. Likewise for the first unit to carry it, the Cadbury purple fronted 172339.

Class 172 - 172 339

At Droitwich Spa working 2S70 1647 Worcester Foregate Street to Stratford-upon-Avon.

www.flickr.com

 

[Deepgreen]

A good livery is one which is elegant and simple, and which allows the presentation of signage and colour-coded information clearly - e.g. first class yellow stripes, wheelchair spaces, etc. There have been very few such liveries under privatisation, as TOCs were obsessed with flashy liveries and wanted to stamp their own take on trains, almost always sacrificing the norms for external information (such as the first class stripe) which had taken decades to establish in the public's minds. GWR adopted a simple green livery (which I like) but then they squandered the opportunity to include the yellow stripe (which had been very clear and prominent on the previous FGW blue) in favour of a virtually pointless silver pencil line. Only now, with the class 769s, has someone at GWR decided that this information is important after all and the units carry very clear first class, and other, demarcations on the green livery (all that remains is for passengers to be able to use them!).

SE adopted a very clear dark blue and colour-coded livery which is excellent. SWT, by contrast, had their first class denoted by ridiculous pale blue dots which were both hard to see and a pointless departure from the yellow stripe convention. SWR have now also reverted to yellow stripes.

Virtually a generation has now been left confused about what external information colours and signs mean because 'designers' were allowed to dream up their own arty takes on such basic stuff.

 

[gabrielhj07]

A good livery is one which is elegant and simple, and which allows the presentation of signage and colour-coded information clearly - e.g. first class yellow stripes, wheelchair spaces, etc. There have been very few such liveries under privatisation, as TOCs were obsessed with flashy liveries and wanted to stamp their own take on trains, almost always sacrificing the norms for external information (such as the first class stripe) which had taken decades to establish in the public's minds. GWR adopted a simple green livery (which I like) but then they squandered the opportunity to include the yellow stripe (which had been very clear and prominent on the previous FGW blue) in favour of a virtually pointless silver pencil line. Only now, with the class 769s, has someone at GWR decided that this information is important after all and the units carry very clear first class, and other, demarcations on the green livery (all that remains is for passengers to be able to use them!).

SE adopted a very clear dark blue and colour-coded livery which is excellent. SWT, by contrast, had their first class denoted by ridiculous pale blue dots which were both hard to see and a pointless departure from the yellow stripe convention. SWR have now also reverted to yellow stripes.

Virtually a generation has now been left confused about what external information colours and signs mean because 'designers' were allowed to dream up their own arty takes on such basic stuff.

Agreed. There is a lack of cohesion among TOC’s on some pretty basic elements of livery design. What, if any ideas have been proposed for GBR, in terms of liveries?

 

[Deepgreen]

That's incorrect. White roofs are still specified for temperature reduction reasons. It works because it obeys the laws of physics. Light colours reflect heat, dark colours absorb heat.

Which is why so many rails at pointwork are painted white, to reduce warping in hot sunshine and thus reduce points failures.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2022 ==

Yeah, lime green specifically if I'm not mistaken. That said for what reason did railway lawmakers opt for yellow instead of green?

I suspect that in the early to mid-1960s, when being specified, it was believed that yellow was best, especially on the then maroon and dark green cab ends.

 

[Class360/1]

A good livery is one which is elegant and simple, and which allows the presentation of signage and colour-coded information clearly - e.g. first class yellow stripes, wheelchair spaces, etc. There have been very few such liveries under privatisation, as TOCs were obsessed with flashy liveries and wanted to stamp their own take on trains, almost always sacrificing the norms for external information (such as the first class stripe) which had taken decades to establish in the public's minds. GWR adopted a simple green livery (which I like) but then they squandered the opportunity to include the yellow stripe (which had been very clear and prominent on the previous FGW blue) in favour of a virtually pointless silver pencil line. Only now, with the class 769s, has someone at GWR decided that this information is important after all and the units carry very clear first class, and other, demarcations on the green livery (all that remains is for passengers to be able to use them!).

SE adopted a very clear dark blue and colour-coded livery which is excellent. SWT, by contrast, had their first class denoted by ridiculous pale blue dots which were both hard to see and a pointless departure from the yellow stripe convention. SWR have now also reverted to yellow stripes.

Virtually a generation has now been left confused about what external information colours and signs mean because 'designers' were allowed to dream up their own arty takes on such basic stuff.

GA has also included clear stripes to mark out 1st class (yellow), wheelchair area (blue) and cycle space (green). For the latter two, GA are in the process of sticking down large vinyls over the windows to make it easier to know where to go.

Much clearer than the likes of the aquamarine NXEA livery

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vinyls over the windows for the wheelchair space? Stupid idea. I hope one of the more legally active wheelchair users takes them to Court over it; wheelchair users should be able to enjoy the view just like an able bodied person. I reckon Doug Paulley will give that a go if he becomes aware of it.

Sticking vinyls over windows should be banned entirely.

 

[py_megapixel]

Vinyls over the windows for the wheelchair space? Stupid idea. I hope one of the more legally active wheelchair users takes them to Court over it; wheelchair users should be able to enjoy the view just like an able bodied person. I reckon Doug Paulley will give that a go if he becomes aware of it.

Sticking vinyls over windows should be banned entirely.

These aren't the Contravision things which cover the full window with a perforated film - they're effectively stencil shapes, and they leave most of the window uninterrupted. It's the same as the stuff that covers the windows on the Berlin U-Bahn but with one big shape instead of lots of small ones.

I do agree it's silly, though, as it only really needs to highlight the door in question, and they've chosen to stick it over the wheelchair space windows. Immediately to the other side of the doorway is - depending on which side of the train you are on - either a blank panel where the accessible toilet is, or a window which nobody looks out of for any length of time - because other than on a ram-packed train, you would only be there if passing through or waiting for the toilet. Why couldn't they stick it on there instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

These aren't the Contravision things which cover the full window with a perforated film - they're effectively stencil shapes, and they leave most of the window uninterrupted. It's the same as the stuff that covers the windows on the Berlin U-Bahn but with one big shape instead of lots of small ones.

Oh, I know, but it is still bad. I hate those repeating Brandenburg Gates on the Berlin stock - I assume that is a "lesser of two evils" thing to discourage window scratching which is endemic in Germany and did seem to happen here for a bit but now seems to have gone away, mercifully.

I do agree it's silly, though, as it only really needs to highlight the door in question, and they've chosen to stick it over the wheelchair space windows. Immediately to the other side of the doorway is - depending on which side of the train you are on - either a blank panel where the accessible toilet is, or a window which nobody looks out of for any length of time - because other than on a ram-packed train, you would only be there if passing through or waiting for the toilet. Why couldn't they stick it on there instead?

Or on the door. A large pictogram on the panel under each door window plus smaller ones along the top of the door as Northern did.