What is causing the shortage of Thameslink drivers?

[coppercapped]

Yet your quote is all about apportioning blame and no-one accepting responsibility. Staffing issues are 100% the fault of the TOC, always has been, always will be.

Which bit of

...the TOCs being entirely responsible for providing drivers.

are you having trouble in understanding?

 

[daikilo]

There's probably a few drivers not available through going through training on the 700s which probably isn't helping

And this is one of the points as the 700s EIS was planned years ago so the need to train crews for them should not have been a surprise. Likewise, the rebuilding of London Bridge station and the intent to go to 12 car was part of a long-established plan.

Of course they have caused (expected) crewing upsets, but of a sort nothing like say a heavy snowstorm. If you cannot manage planned issues you have no chance in an unplanned upset (apart goodwill).

 

[HH]

There are several issues:

1. GTR apparently didn't realise the situation they would would face on driver numbers when they took over the franchise. They didn't bid enough drivers and that's a costly mistake that probably no-one wants to own up to.
2. There is a rostering system in use on Thameslink that means you need more drivers than normal.
3. The union reps write the rosters (last I knew) and they are not very efficient.
4. The driver management are not very good (see above as one example). I hope they're doing rather better on Class 700 training than they did on Class 377, when no link in the roster was fully trained on the new traction for years.

Probably most of you won't understand just why some of these cause problems, so let me give some examples:

2. The rostering has exactly the same number of drivers available on a Saturday as on any weekday, despite many fewer trains being run; this means you can have a lot of drivers sitting around twiddling their thumbs on a Saturday, but be short on Mon-Fri.

3. If spare turns are not in the right time slots you can only cover with RDW.

4. Management needs to get things right like when training & medicals are carried out (hint - don't do them on a Friday unless you really have to); negotiating the maximum leave on any day, making sure drivers are fit to drive, etc. It's hard work and many DMs prefer to rely on RDW.

So to sum up:

1. Bad bid - fault GTR
2. Inefficient rosters - goes back to BR days and the TL drivers like the system. GTR have no excuse for not realising this though.
3 & 4. Poor Management - actually goes back to last time Go Ahead ran TL, but GTR could still fix now.

Or to simplify even further; even though there are other parties to the problem, GTR should have known about the issues and should have had plans to fix them. Other bidders did, but GTR offered the best price and somehow DfT also thought their bid had the best quality. I wonder if they're regretting that decision now?

 

[whoosh]

The union puts together the base rosters (links) but they have to be agreed with management.


For every 1 turn of duty, there are 0.55 'spare' turns which have a movement of two hours either side of their booked start time to be allocated to uncovered running turns.


On the GN side there are more Saturday rest days, and no-one twiddles their thumbs on that side on a Saturday!

 

[FordFocus]

Next pay deal stick in a productivity clause to allow more spare movement if it's that much of an issue. 3 hours is the norm at most TOCs.

 

[sarahj]

There are several issues:

1. GTR apparently didn't realise the situation they would would face on driver numbers when they took over the franchise. They didn't bid enough drivers and that's a costly mistake that probably no-one wants to own up to.
2. There is a rostering system in use on Thameslink that means you need more drivers than normal.
3. The union reps write the rosters (last I knew) and they are not very efficient.
4. The driver management are not very good (see above as one example). I hope they're doing rather better on Class 700 training than they did on Class 377, when no link in the roster was fully trained on the new traction for years.

Probably most of you won't understand just why some of these cause problems, so let me give some examples:

2. The rostering has exactly the same number of drivers available on a Saturday as on any weekday, despite many fewer trains being run; this means you can have a lot of drivers sitting around twiddling their thumbs on a Saturday, but be short on Mon-Fri.

3. If spare turns are not in the right time slots you can only cover with RDW.

4. Management needs to get things right like when training & medicals are carried out (hint - don't do them on a Friday unless you really have to); negotiating the maximum leave on any day, making sure drivers are fit to drive, etc. It's hard work and many DMs prefer to rely on RDW.

So to sum up:

1. Bad bid - fault GTR
2. Inefficient rosters - goes back to BR days and the TL drivers like the system. GTR have no excuse for not realising this though.
3 & 4. Poor Management - actually goes back to last time Go Ahead ran TL, but GTR could still fix now.

Or to simplify even further; even though there are other parties to the problem, GTR should have known about the issues and should have had plans to fix them. Other bidders did, but GTR offered the best price and somehow DfT also thought their bid had the best quality. I wonder if they're regretting that decision now?

New driver training is not going well either from what I hear. A backlog is building with not enough DI's

 

[HH]

The union puts together the base rosters (links) but they have to be agreed with management.

Unfortunately management lack the skills to adequately check them.

For every 1 turn of duty, there are 0.55 'spare' turns which have a movement of two hours either side of their booked start time to be allocated to uncovered running turns.

The movement is only allowed with sufficient notice, which means they can't be moved to cover on the day gaps, such as those caused by (short term) sickness or delays.

On the GN side there are more Saturday rest days, and no-one twiddles their thumbs on that side on a Saturday!

I'm sure no-one actually twiddles their thumbs, but there isn't productive work to give them. There's a huge number of spares at Bedford on a Saturday.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

New driver training is not going well either from what I hear. A backlog is building with not enough DI's

I'm not surprised. I'm constantly horrified by the lack of management understanding I come across about how to (mechanically) manage train crew; that is how to do manpower planning, draw up and manage rosters, understand issues around diagrams, etc.

 

[Chrisgr31]

And pay for the extra 338 hours worked, which is presumably why you volunteered to do so?

Its obvious that overtime will be paid and that is an incentive for drivers to work it, however I think as passengers we have to accept that many, probably most, and potentially all but a small number, of drivers have a good work effect, they like driving trains, they want to drive trains, they don't want to deliberately upset passengers and they want to deliver a service.

I suspect that there are a significant number of drivers who are genuinely concerned when a shift is not covered, and in a sense upset because they are professionals. However the reality is they just cannot cover all the shifts all year. There was exactly the same issue this time last year.

Its no doubt caused by the reliance on overtime, the time of year means there is more sickness, and less desire to work additional hours. The issues at Southern, and the annoyed passengers they come across south of the river just adding additional disincentive in to the mix.

 

[infobleep]

I'm interested to know what you do. Yes there are things such as spare turns but more often than not the spare driver(s) are used to cover crew shortage. Or a full turn!

Of course when GTR go panic mode and reduce the service there will be people sat around as not all drivers sign all the routes, etc.

I know people who work in offices who sometimes have nothing to do. I don't sit there and have a go at them.

Perhaps you should!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are several issues:

1. GTR apparently didn't realise the situation they would would face on driver numbers when they took over the franchise. They didn't bid enough drivers and that's a costly mistake that probably no-one wants to own up to.
2. There is a rostering system in use on Thameslink that means you need more drivers than normal.
3. The union reps write the rosters (last I knew) and they are not very efficient.
4. The driver management are not very good (see above as one example). I hope they're doing rather better on Class 700 training than they did on Class 377, when no link in the roster was fully trained on the new traction for years.

Probably most of you won't understand just why some of these cause problems, so let me give some examples:

2. The rostering has exactly the same number of drivers available on a Saturday as on any weekday, despite many fewer trains being run; this means you can have a lot of drivers sitting around twiddling their thumbs on a Saturday, but be short on Mon-Fri.

3. If spare turns are not in the right time slots you can only cover with RDW.

4. Management needs to get things right like when training & medicals are carried out (hint - don't do them on a Friday unless you really have to); negotiating the maximum leave on any day, making sure drivers are fit to drive, etc. It's hard work and many DMs prefer to rely on RDW.

So to sum up:

1. Bad bid - fault GTR
2. Inefficient rosters - goes back to BR days and the TL drivers like the system. GTR have no excuse for not realising this though.
3 & 4. Poor Management - actually goes back to last time Go Ahead ran TL, but GTR could still fix now.

Or to simplify even further; even though there are other parties to the problem, GTR should have known about the issues and should have had plans to fix them. Other bidders did, but GTR offered the best price and somehow DfT also thought their bid had the best quality. I wonder if they're regretting that decision now?

It goes down to large organisations doing procurement pro Essex that end up going with x because their price just wins, even if other stuff isn't as good. Sometimes you have to pay more. I have experience of this.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[broadgage]

I consider that the regular failure of engage sufficient drivers is due to simple incompetence on the part of the TOC.

I appreciate that recruiting and training takes time, but the present TOC, have HAD a long time and have failed miserably to address a long standing issue.

If a reasonable advertising budget fails to attract enough suitable applicants, or if retaining existing drivers is problematic, then they need to either pay better, or make the job more attractive in other ways.
The details are up to the TOC.

The works at London Bridge, and the introduction of the new trains have of course increased staff requirements, but both these events were long planned and should not have taken the TOC by surprise.
If these events DID take the TOC by surprise, then that is another indication of basic incompetence.

And yes I know that staff fall sick or resign without notice, and that they take holidays, and require training on new traction etc, but planning for these entirely foreseeable events is part of running a business. A failure to plan properly for foreseeable levels of absence, resignations, holidays, training and so on is again lack of basic competence.

 

[JamesTT]

Greed

 

[highdyke]

There should be a major inquiry into staffing at TOCs, because there seems to be penny pinching, rife corruption and incompetence at many of them.

It's about time the government set of rail academies around the country and took the training and certification out of their hands for key operating and technical staff.

 

[HH]

If a reasonable advertising budget fails to attract enough suitable applicants...

There's never a shortage of applicants. It just takes time (and money) to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[FordFocus]

This problem never goes away. The DfT seems to like to get their fingers in some of the pies like this ongoing DOO debacle and make a total hash of things. It then regularly ignores warning signs of lower staff numbers and higher RDW at some TOCs. When the problem gets so bad then trains start getting cancelled on a regular basis or emergency timetables come out to play (early LM and FCC). The DfT eventually act when it's too late. Recruitment to passing out as a productive driver can take nearly 18 months. There is no quick fix. Add in new traction or route learning for existing drivers and the whole thing starts to snowball.

 

[Failed Unit]

The union puts together the base rosters (links) but they have to be agreed with management.


For every 1 turn of duty, there are 0.55 'spare' turns which have a movement of two hours either side of their booked start time to be allocated to uncovered running turns.


On the GN side there are more Saturday rest days, and no-one twiddles their thumbs on that side on a Saturday!

Nope. Great Northern are really suffering again today. Dft seem to think the situation is acceptable as they still refuse to hit GTR where it hurts.

 

[AndyY]

All these threads and past posts make a depressing reading.

If I understand correctly:
1. The driver shortage dates back to an inaccurate estimate when GTR bid for the Thameslink contract, which they are loathe to admit (because it will mean employing more drivers which eats into their profitability).
2. Meanwhile, the department of transport does not want to enforce any action against GTR (perhaps because the powers-that-be need their full support in their fight with the unions in Southern?).
3. Also, TFL is not allowed to take over the Thameslink route, due to political considerations by the Tories (does not want to empower the mayor of London who is in opposition party). This would at least lead to some "low hanging fruit" being picked to improve reliability.

So, we end up with a situation which nobody in power wants corrected! You really cannot make this up.
Although not normally supportive of nationalisation, I think I can confidently say we would not be having this nonsense if this was a nationalised railway.
Perhaps people living along these lines should consider moving if getting to/from work on time is critical? There does not seem to be anything which will improve the situation, not until the GTR franchise runs out in 2021 at the earliest.

 

[westcoaster]

Unfortunately management lack the skills to adequately check them.


The movement is only allowed with sufficient notice, which means they can't be moved to cover on the day gaps, such as those caused by (short term) sickness or delays.


I'm sure no-one actually twiddles their thumbs, but there isn't productive work to give them. There's a huge number of spares at Bedford on a Saturday.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not surprised. I'm constantly horrified by the lack of management understanding I come across about how to (mechanically) manage train crew; that is how to do manpower planning, draw up and manage rosters, understand issues around diagrams, etc.

I can assure you there is not a huge amount of spares on a Saturday at Bedford whatsoever. But we do have training days on a Saturday, this is where we keep upto date on rule book changes, cms changes , seasonal driving and alike.

We do get moved with 48 hrs notice. But also less than that with mutual concent via calls.

 

[XDM]

I have done 338 hours of overtime this year. That works out at an average of 41 days.

You mean you have been paid 338 hours overtime pay. It may be that you asked for 2 hours overtime to do a ten minute shunt one day & were given it because the train was blocking the platform. It may be you agreed a late change of work for an extra 5 hours overtime. It may be you were given 4 hours overtime to read a change of rules that took you an hour to read while you were being paid at the depot to be spare. This may be wrong but it is incredibly unlikely that you did 338 hours extra in the cab.

 

[infobleep]

You mean you have been paid 338 hours overtime pay. It may be that you asked for 2 hours overtime to do a ten minute shunt one day & were given it because the train was blocking the platform. It may be you agreed a late change of work for an extra 5 hours overtime. It may be you were given 4 hours overtime to read a change of rules that took you an hour to read while you were being paid at the depot to be spare. This may be wrong but it is incredibly unlikely that you did 338 hours extra in the cab.

Why was the train blocking a platform and if it is, why does someone need to be there for 2 hours if they are only doing 10 minutes shunting?

If they only are needed for 10 minutes then shouldn't they be taken away from the platform and the train left in its own? Alternatively the train is moved away from the platform at all costs or not put there until the last moment, again at all costs.

What's your opinion on that XDM? If you have any opinions that is.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[Llanigraham]

There should be a major inquiry into staffing at TOCs, because there seems to be penny pinching, rife corruption and incompetence at many of them.

It's about time the government set of rail academies around the country and took the training and certification out of their hands for key operating and technical staff.

Amend that to read "across the whole railway" and it would be better. There is undermanning at the signalling grades, at S & T and at P'way.

 

[Abpj17]

All these threads and past posts make a depressing reading.

If I understand correctly:
1. The driver shortage dates back to an inaccurate estimate when GTR bid for the Thameslink contract, which they are loathe to admit (because it will mean employing more drivers which eats into their profitability).
2. Meanwhile, the department of transport does not want to enforce any action against GTR (perhaps because the powers-that-be need their full support in their fight with the unions in Southern?).
3. Also, TFL is not allowed to take over the Thameslink route, due to political considerations by the Tories (does not want to empower the mayor of London who is in opposition party). This would at least lead to some "low hanging fruit" being picked to improve reliability.

So, we end up with a situation which nobody in power wants corrected! You really cannot make this up.
Although not normally supportive of nationalisation, I think I can confidently say we would not be having this nonsense if this was a nationalised railway.
Perhaps people living along these lines should consider moving if getting to/from work on time is critical? There does not seem to be anything which will improve the situation, not until the GTR franchise runs out in 2021 at the earliest.

Does more drivers eat into profitability? Thameslink is a franchise management contract.

Apparently there are several dozen drivers in training (still) - I defer to others on how well that's been going.

The last month or so has been particularly awful on Thameslink. (Southern I can understand because of the strikes...) Quite amusing, GTR are now displaying even more posters at stations with performance stats. Unfortunately they are awful. On week 2 of this brave endeavour the stats are something like 60% of trains 'on time' (5 mins). Week 1 it was 52% ish.

Around a month ago there were two major incidents that involved a lot of displacement services and long journeys. Drivers will have been loathe to do overtime after those service experiences - many seem to get to work on Thameslink itself, so they're suffering from the delays too. Driver shortages seem to have kicked up an order of magnitude since then - I assume the proximity of xmas/early darkness is adding to a mood of wanting not to spend more time on Thameslink.

Chief Planner - one night last week, there were four cancelled trains in a row from blackfriars going north. One got uncancelled but ran 20 mins late because it seemed to take ages to go into the snowhill sidings, find a driver, then come back to blackfriars for passengers... It was particularly galling that a 700 in test went past!

(There has been one comedy moment this week tho at least - a odd triangle of benches has been added at City Thameslink at the Holborn end.)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With the 3 franchises that make up GTR will any drivers sign routes and/or traction that aren't part of their franchise's routes and/or traction?

 

[ungreat]

With the 3 franchises that make up GTR will any drivers sign routes and/or traction that aren't part of their franchise's routes and/or traction?

Not on GN GTR, no. So discard them

 

[ComUtoR]

This may be wrong but it is incredibly unlikely that you did 338 hours extra in the cab.

338hrs / 41days is a breeze. I know people on more. We get emailed a list of the number of days each and every Driver has done. Our rest day count is huge.

 

[XDM]

338hrs / 41days is a breeze. I know people on more. We get emailed a list of the number of days each and every Driver has done. Our rest day count is huge.

I agree that people are being paid a lot of overtime but much of it is for the reasons I quoted earlier. If services are disrupted & a driver is due to be relieved at a station for his PNB,statutory meal break,he can insist on leaving his train in the platform even if his break could legally be taken in thirty minutes time. Due to disruption his relief driver is not there yet. Managers then have the problem that his train is blocking the platform & further disrupting all the already late running trains behind,including perhaps his relief. The driver has them over a barrel,'give me x hours overtime for taking it out of service & putting it in the siding or I won't do it. The roster states I get a break here'. So management give in,offering 2 or 3 hours overtime for a 10 minute shunt. Happens all the time in many different circumstances,not just the one above. Even the decent guys do it because they will be seen as mugs by their mates for shunting it for nothing,even though they are being paid right through.

 

[ComUtoR]

I agree that people are being paid a lot of overtime but much of it is for the reasons I quoted earlier.

Do you only ever read what you want to read ? Are you really that ignorant or deliberately trolling.

It isn't about being paid additional hours due to reason X or reason Y. Those circumstances are the exception, rather than the norm. To consistently spout that is either deliberate or ignorance.

If services are disrupted & a driver is due to be relieved at a station for his PNB,statutory meal break,he can insist on leaving his train in the platform even if his break could legally be taken in thirty minutes time. Due to disruption his relief driver is not there yet.

Not really true. If your PNB can be deferred to later in your diagram then you are at the mercy of control/resources etc. They can and often do tell you to work it. It will always depend on T&C's but we can work (as can anyone) up to 6hrs from booking on before you are REQUIRED BY LAW to have a break. Then can absolutely (on our TOC) tell you to work any service whatsoever right up to that 6hr limit and you cannot refuse.

Overtime is rife and you can rack up huge hours and numerous days because you are constantly covering work. Not 2hrs for a 10 minute shunt :roll: It's covering entire diagrams because there isn't sufficient staff to cover the base roster, let alone the needs of the business.

At my depot alone there has been 500+ additional DAYS worked with our highest worker on 25 days and that was in a 4 month period. Those have bugger all to do with being paid extra for disruption etc. You really need to ask yourselves something when a TOC can rack up that many days in such a short amount of time. It is a major reason why people say the railway runs on the goodwill of its staff.

Managers then have the problem that his train is blocking the platform & further disrupting all the already late running trains behind,including perhaps his relief. The driver has them over a barrel,'give me x hours overtime for taking it out of service & putting it in the siding or I won't do it. The roster states I get a break here'. So management give in,offering 2 or 3 hours overtime for a 10 minute shunt. Happens all the time in many different circumstances,not just the one above. Even the decent guys do it because they will be seen as mugs by their mates for shunting it for nothing,even though they are being paid right through.

You really only see one side of the story don't you. This is NOT the norm and rarely happens at my TOC and various others. What I see more of is that people will cut their breaks short or work the extra for gratis and without complaint. Happens every single day at my TOC. You often asked to shunt or AP/DP etc when you come in. I myself, worked an extra hour for FREE the other day.

Even when your example is the case it is still better for the TOC to pay for additional overtime than employ sufficient staffing levels. Up till a few years ago ALL our overtime during disruption was free and mandatory.

Overtime, rostering, establishments, etc. etc. are so complicated it cannot be summed up or reduced to a single argument of getting paid extra for a 10 minute shunt.

 

[Tomnick]

I've known people - in all operating grades - get paid overtime far in excess of what they've actually worked, either for staying past their day or (more commonly) for rest day work. I've done it myself - for example, when I've had other plans but rosters were really struggling to cover something, I was happy to help them out as long as they were prepared to give me a little extra to compensate for the inconvenience (and potentially the cost) of having to rearrange everything at home. I did it quite often as a Signalman - of course I wouldn't come in for an extra Sunday turn for an hour to give up a possession if I was just paid for an hour, because it'd barely cover the cost of the fuel to get there!

I don't recognise the demands that "XDM" refers to though. Wherever I've worked, people have nearly always been happy to help out, doing a favour for Control or the TCS or whoever. I've always worked under decent management with a mutual feeling of trust and respect, though. I wonder why "XDM" has found staff acting rather differently?

 

[Class 170101]

Next pay deal stick in a productivity clause to allow more spare movement if it's that much of an issue. 3 hours is the norm at most TOCs.

You will be lucky to get a pay deal agreed if productivity was part of it. It will end with overtime bans, working to rule and strikes.

More likely these productivity deals are agreed separately.

 

[09065]

Not really true. If your PNB can be deferred to later in your diagram then you are at the mercy of control/resources etc. They can and often do tell you to work it. It will always depend on T&C's but we can work (as can anyone) up to 6hrs from booking on before you are REQUIRED BY LAW to have a break. Then can absolutely (on our TOC) tell you to work any service whatsoever right up to that 6hr limit and you cannot refuse.

To be fair the TOC has a responsibility to reasonably expect you to be relieved at that 6 hour mark; therefore you can refuse if there is no likelihood of you reaching a suitable PNB point.

 

[muz379]

I agree that people are being paid a lot of overtime but much of it is for the reasons I quoted earlier. If services are disrupted & a driver is due to be relieved at a station for his PNB,statutory meal break,he can insist on leaving his train in the platform even if his break could legally be taken in thirty minutes time. Due to disruption his relief driver is not there yet. Managers then have the problem that his train is blocking the platform & further disrupting all the already late running trains behind,including perhaps his relief. The driver has them over a barrel,'give me x hours overtime for taking it out of service & putting it in the siding or I won't do it. The roster states I get a break here'. So management give in,offering 2 or 3 hours overtime for a 10 minute shunt. Happens all the time in many different circumstances,not just the one above.

In which case that is just poor management by control , if the break can legally be moved later then managers/control need to be ensuring that it is moved . That is certainly my experience of working as a member of train crew , if something goes wrong and you still have enough hours to do something before you need a break then they can and do tell you to do it and take your break later .

Even the decent guys do it because they will be seen as mugs by their mates for shunting it for nothing,even though they are being paid right through.

I suspect its more to do with management/control being seen as pushovers


The only time ive been paid / known people get paid for overtime above what they actually work is when the day is up and control/management are asking you to work beyond your rostered day to get them out of trouble . So in the situation you just used for example , you are bringing the train into station X where you are relieved and your shift is over and another driver takes it into the sidings brings it back out and works it forward . You arrive and because there has been an incident somewhere else/the other drivers job is uncovered /rostering error etc etc control ask if you will take it into the sidings sit with it for 20 minutes then bring it back out over your day .

In this case my view is that flexibility costs money . When various grades signed up to rostering principles which give the TOC's increased spare movement they did so for increases in salary out of respect of the added flexibility . The same applies here IMO if you want someone to do something beyond their day at really short notice then this is going to cost you more than it would have cost if you had planned over a long term . This should then be incentive enough for TOC's to ensure that they have enough spare men , dont make rostering or diagramming mistakes . But unfortunately that is very often not the case .Or maybe its just cheaper to pay someone 2 extra hours for a 20 minute shunt instead of paying someone 8 hours spare just in case