What is causing the shortage of Thameslink drivers?

[infobleep]

Does anyone know what is causing the shortage of Thameslink drivers? There's nothing on National Rail Enquiries to say what it is other than there is a shortage.

Is it simply not enough staff being employed or some other reason?

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[ComUtoR]

Is it simply not enough staff being employed or some other reason?

Little bit of both. It has always been bad on Thameslink. The whole debate about how the TOC's staff its workers and how the Drivers rostering is done etc. will take many many pages. It often crops up in other threads and is well worth a read if your genuinely interested (it's quite boring tbh)

Never gonna stop happening

 

[infobleep]

I see the 7.15 Wivelsfield to Bedford was cancelled today due to a train fault. The 7.41 was part cancelled due to a train fault. Thus no service after 6.43 until 8.17! If you wanted Bedford however the previous service was at 6.37!

If only they could tie up the train faults to services that will be cancelled due to tack of drivers.

I don't know why more isn't made of the lack of drivers on Thameslink. Perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway need to have posters and publicity criticising those who are causing services to be cancelled and causing misery for passengers!

I also wonder if the lack of staff is restricting the freedom of movement for EU citizens getting to Gatwick Airport. :twisted again:

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[Stew998]

Does anyone know what is causing the shortage of Thameslink drivers? There's nothing on National Rail Enquiries to say what it is other than there is a shortage.

Is it simply not enough staff being employed or some other reason?

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And they're not even working to rule yet (officially)

 

[daikilo]

I don't know why more isn't made of the lack of drivers on Thameslink. Perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway need to have posters and publicity criticising those who are causing services to be cancelled and causing misery for passengers! /QUOTE]

Taken to the extreme, that would mean GTR management ordering posters to blame themselves! As to passengers, they basically have no choice so GTR gets the money anyway. I do not understand why the DfT is still not reacting in a customer-focussed way.

 

[physics34]

I don't know why more isn't made of the lack of drivers on Thameslink. Perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway need to have posters and publicity criticising those who are causing services to be cancelled and causing misery for passengers! /QUOTE]

Taken to the extreme, that would mean GTR management ordering posters to blame themselves! As to passengers, they basically have no choice so GTR gets the money anyway. I do not understand why the DfT is still not reacting in a customer-focussed way.

no one else was interested in the TSGN franchise. The DfT are keeping them sweet.

 

[Deepgreen]

I don't know why more isn't made of the lack of drivers on Thameslink. Perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway need to have posters and publicity criticising those who are causing services to be cancelled and causing misery for passengers! /QUOTE]

Taken to the extreme, that would mean GTR management ordering posters to blame themselves! As to passengers, they basically have no choice so GTR gets the money anyway. I do not understand why the DfT is still not reacting in a customer-focussed way.

Why would they? With GTR operating in staunch Tory-land, they have nothing to lose, as it would probably take far more than the current indefinite shambles to sway the drone voters of the south east!

There is absolutely no end in sight for the shambles, as, even when the dispute ends (not 'settled', but ends) there will be deep-seated and very long-lasting rancour among the remaining staff, leading to an almost permanent animosity between the crews and whatever TOC runs the franchise.

Short of a huge and embarrassing U-turn, along with some major sweeteners from HMG for the staff (which obviously won't happen), I can see no course of action that can/will restore any semblance of reasonable service (not just the actual physical running of the scheduled trains, but all the associated passenger care elements - ticket checking, information provision, etc.) for many years.

Sorry to be gloomy, but I can simply see no way out of the mess short of a change of HMG, which also, sadly, is not going to happen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And they're not even working to rule yet (officially)

As far as I know, Thameslink drivers won't be 'working to rule' - it is only Southern drivers that will do so.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know why more isn't made of the lack of drivers on Thameslink. Perhaps Govia Thameslink Railway need to have posters and publicity criticising those who are causing services to be cancelled and causing misery for passengers! /QUOTE]

Taken to the extreme, that would mean GTR management ordering posters to blame themselves! As to passengers, they basically have no choice so GTR gets the money anyway. I do not understand why the DfT is still not reacting in a customer-focussed way.

Precisely. GTR blaming themselves.

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[bILLOO]

Hopefully it'll improve once GTR empties its' Talent Pool...?

 

[infobleep]

Hopefully it'll improve once GTR empties its' Talent Pool...?

Perhaps they could blame the talented pool for not being talented soon enough! :twisted yet again:

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[ChiefPlanner]

I think previous threads on this subject have illustrated the difficulties of training more new drivers - due to the issues on Trainers etc , so no obvious quick fix.

It really is bad - especially late evenings and weekends - (masses of evidence from friends and family members) , some of course caused by the never ending shambles south of the river with infrastrcuture failures)

The worst I have heard is 4 in a row cancelled from West Hampstead northbound one late evening - resulting in a £50 Uber cab - and no chance of getting that back as a claim.

 

[swt class 450]

Does anyone know what is causing the shortage of Thameslink drivers? There's nothing on National Rail Enquiries to say what it is other than there is a shortage.

Is it simply not enough staff being employed or some other reason?

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It could be because lots of drivers are leaving because GTR is such a bad company to work for?

 

[infobleep]

It could be because lots of drivers are leaving because GTR is such a bad company to work for?

Perhaps they could blame the drivers for leaving the company then? :twisted further:

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[Blindtraveler]

To me this thread asks a couple of easily answered questions:

1. Why the shortage of drivers? No matter how much I wanted to swap Mcdonalds for a Gateline, Platform or snug cosy booking office or drivers cab I'd far rather go on turning out quarter pounders than work for that lot.

2. Why arnt DFT taking a customer focused approach? DFT dont know what customers are, let alone how to focus on them. And thats on top of the fact that as pointed out above the Govd are trying to make many changes with GTR being the public face of such and GTR whilst being called every sort of name by staff and pax will walk away unscathed from this because of the fact that the right favours, and we woant dwell on what they are, are being given/done for the right people

 

[Deepgreen]

I think previous threads on this subject have illustrated the difficulties of training more new drivers - due to the issues on Trainers etc , so no obvious quick fix.

It really is bad - especially late evenings and weekends - (masses of evidence from friends and family members) , some of course caused by the never ending shambles south of the river with infrastrcuture failures)

The worst I have heard is 4 in a row cancelled from West Hampstead northbound one late evening - resulting in a £50 Uber cab - and no chance of getting that back as a claim.

It does help, though, if the strategic plan allows for sensible recruitment rather than running the quota at rock bottom, along with almost all other GTR staff! Proper planning would take account of planned service requirements, which don't just appear with a few months' notice.

 

[PHILIPE]

To sum it up, trying to operate on a shoestring and relying on driver's good will to bail them out by working overtime and rest days.

 

[Carlisle]

Maybe GTR should consider offering some kind of relocation incentives for any interested DBS drivers that are opting for redundancy

 

[Failed Unit]

Using both routes this week are horrendous for various reasons (various reasons)

Tuesday evening they were having to add stops into Bedford services to ensure that the local stations were served. Yesterday I was heading south and both the 0940 and 0955 services towards Gatwick were cancelled (and onwards). Not good if you were planning on avoiding Southern Problems.

Great northern seems to have got better recently, in the summer it was basically forget it if you want to travel at the weekend. That said the Welwyn route has engineering work on Sunday, when the trains should return we may see mass cancellations again.

Amazingly they still blame the shortage on FCC. To me although they may have caused the problem they have had long enough to implement a solution. But it is hardly going to attrack anyone from another company such as Greater Anglia considering how badly GTR treat employees.

 

[coppercapped]

At the risk of introducing some information into a thread which is once again degenerating into an exchange of snide remarks, may I point out this article. Admittedly it is about a 18 months old, but changing such a situation takes a long time. The relevant part reads:

Driver Shortage is a problem that simply shouldn’t have happened. It is also one that cannot be blamed on Network Rail – the TOCs being entirely responsible for providing drivers.

Again this is an area where the full picture has yet to be made fully clear. Unlike the other problems it also predated the Christmas track layout change at London Bridge. There appear to be a number of issues.

The first problem appears to be that when Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) took over from First Capital Connect (FCC) they found fewer drivers than expected. FCC seemed to have just enough to run a basic service but that was all – and even that assumed voluntary overtime. This does seem to be a fundamental weakness of the franchise process and it may be that in future the DfT needs to ensure that TOCs do not run down their trainee driver numbers towards the end of a franchise.

This initial driver problem was then made worse by an unusually high level of winter sickness that swept the country towards Christmas. On top of that, nearer Christmas drivers were naturally more reluctant to work overtime and, at the same time, it was necessary to give drivers two days of training to cover the new layout that would come into operation at London Bridge after Christmas.

Things got so bad that Southern resorted to withdrawing all its Milton Keynes services in the week before Christmas just to ensure they could run the rest of the service fairly reliably – though there were cancellations there as well.

Unfortunately, although Southern and Thameslink have now recruited new drivers it takes over a year to train them. Charles Horton, who heads GTR, claims that they have enough drivers now for normal day to day service provided everything else runs smoothly. The trouble is, of course, other things are not running smoothly and trains continue to be cancelled due to staff shortage.

One reason for the need to recruit so many drivers is to cover future training. Not only will drivers have to be retrained on the new class 387 entering service, they will also need to be eventually retrained further on the Siemens class 700 Thameslink trains. On top of that there will be training for signalling under ERTMS prior to 2018.

It has previously been stated in this forum, but after this article appeared, that there is also a shortage of driver trainers so that it became even more difficult to break out of this vicious circle.

I try to ignore all these posts trying to hang the 'blame' for some problem on something or somebody. That doesn't help solve it.

 

[jon0844]

Is GTR blaming FCC like many people in the industry that still blame Thatcher for everything that's wrong in the world?

 

[infobleep]

At the risk of introducing some information into a thread which is once again degenerating into an exchange of snide remarks, may I point out this article. Admittedly it is about a 18 months old, but changing such a situation takes a long time. The relevant part reads:



It has previously been stated in this forum, but after this article appeared, that there is also a shortage of driver trainers so that it became even more difficult to break out of this vicious circle.

I try to ignore all these posts trying to hang the 'blame' for some problem on something or somebody. That doesn't help solve it.

So the issue could be driver training on new rolling stock. If so put that in the reason for the lack of drivers. Spell it out.

They quick to spell out strikes and the issues that causes

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[ComUtoR]

I try to ignore all these posts trying to hang the 'blame' for some problem on something or somebody. That doesn't help solve it.

Yet your quote is all about apportioning blame and no-one accepting responsibility. Staffing issues are 100% the fault of the TOC, always has been, always will be.

In all my years of working as a Driver there has ALWAYS been a shortage. It will NEVER change.

The shortage is often deliberate and is done specifically to help reduce staffing costs. In some part I would also blame the Union because they are partly responsible for staffing levels and keeping the shortfall means you can provide overtime and helps when other Drivers are facing redundancy or a reduction in establishments. Keeping a level of staffing slightly below what's required saves the TOC's money and allows Staff movement between TOC's. It's win-win for everyone except passengers.

The 'solution' is easy. Just costly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yet your quote is all about apportioning blame and no-one accepting responsibility. Staffing issues are 100% the fault of the TOC, always has been, always will be.

In all my years of working as a Driver there has ALWAYS been a shortage. It will NEVER change.

The shortage is often deliberate and is done specifically to help reduce staffing costs. In some part I would also blame the Union because they are partly responsible for staffing levels and keeping the shortfall means you can provide overtime and helps when other Drivers are facing redundancy or a reduction in establishments. Keeping a level of staffing slightly below what's required saves the TOC's money and allows Staff movement between TOC's. It's win-win for everyone except passengers.

The 'solution' is easy. Just costly.

Surely, it should be primarily in the interests of the Union to ensure there are as many staff employed as possible, not to just help the existing staff get more overtime ?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I have done 338 hours of overtime this year. That works out at an average of 41 days. No wonder Southern are worried about the overtime ban. The railway is run on reliance of overtime, and what do we get in return. Criticism.

Militant strikers my backside, We work damned hard to keep the trains running and for what? To have it thrown back in our faces when we dare to say "Enough"

Wake up folks and spot the real guilty parties in all this, and it isn't the RMT and ASLEF.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely, it should be primarily in the interests of the Union to ensure there are as many staff employed as possible, not to just help the existing staff get more overtime ?

Well now they have their chance don't they. When Scotrail drivers banned overtime two years ago, Scotrail started a programme of recruitment. Now everyone is happy.
Southern make me laugh. They rely on their staff so heavily and yet spit in their faces. What a class act they are.

 

[Llanigraham]

I have done 338 hours of overtime this year. That works out at an average of 41 days. No wonder Southern are worried about the overtime ban. The railway is run on reliance of overtime, and what do we get in return. Criticism.

Militant strikers my backside, We work damned hard to keep the trains running and for what? To have it thrown back in our faces when we dare to say "Enough"

Wake up folks and spot the real guilty parties in all this, and it isn't the RMT and ASLEF.

I would say the same feeling is within the signalling grades as well.

 

[Carlisle]

Militant strikers my backside, We work damned hard to keep the trains running .

Well I know a few drivers recently who've been fortunate enough to sit spare for most of their shift or spend an hour or two in a taxi merely to carry out a 10 minute shunt somewhere, Whilst I appreciate those examples aren't usually the norm, let's not claim it's always constant hard work either

 

[ungreat]

Well I know a few drivers recently who've been fortunate enough to sit spare for most of their shift or spend an hour or two in a taxi merely to carry out a 10 minute shunt somewhere, Whilst I appreciate those examples aren't usually the norm, let's not claim it's always constant hard work either

I haven't had one single spare shift all of this year. I don't do any overtime whatsoever,not even Sundays as I'm tired enough just doing my roster

We are always short of drivers too.Despite the huge recruitment of late we are still short

 

[Bishopstone]

I have done 338 hours of overtime this year. That works out at an average of 41 days. No wonder Southern are worried about the overtime ban. The railway is run on reliance of overtime, and what do we get in return. Criticism.

And pay for the extra 338 hours worked, which is presumably why you volunteered to do so?

 

[Fincra5]

Well I know a few drivers recently who've been fortunate enough to sit spare for most of their shift or spend an hour or two in a taxi merely to carry out a 10 minute shunt somewhere, Whilst I appreciate those examples aren't usually the norm, let's not claim it's always constant hard work either

I'm interested to know what you do. Yes there are things such as spare turns but more often than not the spare driver(s) are used to cover crew shortage. Or a full turn!

Of course when GTR go panic mode and reduce the service there will be people sat around as not all drivers sign all the routes, etc.

I know people who work in offices who sometimes have nothing to do. I don't sit there and have a go at them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There's probably a few drivers not available through going through training on the 700s which probably isn't helping