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It appears to be every retailer (including TOC ones) I have checked, not just those ones.
FWIW my non enthusiast wife thinks an open return is defined the same way as these retailers do, while I think it is any ticket with a return leg open for a month.
More suggesting that retailers drop the term so it falls out of favour. No confusion to be had if an ambiguous term is replaced with a clearer term and interface.
Northern's web site gives the option of "Open Return". I just tried it with three different destinations. Southport to respectively Liverpool, Billericay and Manchester.
One came back with "Anytime Day Return". Another came back with "Off-Peak Return" and one came back with "Off-Peak Day Return". If I then click on "See other Ticket Types" I get a list, which includes other types of tickets with different validities.
In the "Anytime Day Return" case, no other options.
In the "Off-Peak Return" case, "Anytime Return" offered
In the third case it turns out the cheapest "Off-Peak Day Return" has a route restriction
So including the cheapest option, there are six tickets available, using with or without the route restriction, and then either "Off-Peak Day", "Anytime Day" and "Anytime Short Distance". No "Off-peak Return".
The moment I specify a return date/time on a different date than outbound, Northern want to sell me Advance Singles.
Interestingly, given the forum's repeated insistence that there is no such thing as an "off peak train", only an "off peak ticket", the Northern web site description of the validity of the "Off-Peak" ticket is "Any off-peak train".
No wonder people are confused.
Only five posters of the 80 who have voted so far have selected the option that matches what Trainline use in their app. A clear majority have voted that their definition of "Open Return" is a period return. While this forum is not necessarily representative of the wider public, I've no reason to believe (following many years of working with passengers) that the public would have voted any differently.
Sorry for the delaying replying - wanted to wait and look at some stats to reply properly.
Out of all the open returns sold by Raileasy since the start of August, well over 50% were day returns not month returns (and the very small number of people who mistakenly thought it was a period return does not even move the needle towards the other way).
Sorry for the delaying replying - wanted to wait and look at some stats to reply properly.
Out of all the open returns sold by Raileasy since the start of August, well over 50% were day returns not month returns (and the very small number of people who mistakenly thought it was a period return does not even move the needle towards the other way).
I mean, basically every retailer is the same - you are offered the choice in the journey planner before you search of "Single", "Return", and "Open Return". If so many passengers are using the Open Return option to buy day return tickets then I'd argue that is what customers wants and are expecting.
I mean, basically every retailer is the same - you are offered the choice in the journey planner before you search of "Single", "Return", and "Open Return". If so many passengers are using the Open Return option to buy day return tickets then I'd argue that is what customers wants and are expecting.
It isn't conclusive, but I would suggest that several thousand customer purchases is probably more meaningful than the poll in this thread with a very limited range of demographics, that you were using as evidence to the contrary
Presumably, the choice of "return" by a customer leads them to a request for date and time, and the choice of "open return" just gives a list of types of return tickets, their prices and their restrictions?
I write as one who has never selected "open return" ! Perhaps it's time for me to change my habits, as I have simply always used a knowledge of the ticket types to mentally fudge my way past the journey planner output.
I'm willing to say that the evidence from Raileasy has made me change my mind. If Joe Public have a particular interpretation of the words "open return" and seem happy with the concept, then us rail nerds should accept that and fall in line. Any changes are likely to bring less understanding, not more.
It isn't conclusive, but I would suggest that several thousand customer purchases is probably more meaningful than the poll in this thread with a very limited range of demographics, that you were using as evidence to the contrary
But you've no idea what the customer was thinking when they purchased their ticket. Whereas I find myself dealing with customers face-to-face and therefore have the opportunity to clarify exactly what they're asking for before I sell it.
Presumably, the choice of "return" by a customer leads them to a request for date and time, and the choice of "open return" just gives a list of types of return tickets, their prices and their restrictions?
I write as one who has never selected "open return" ! Perhaps it's time for me to change my habits, as I have simply always used a knowledge of the ticket types to mentally fudge my way past the journey planner output.
But you've no idea what the customer was thinking when they purchased their ticket. Whereas I find myself dealing with customers face-to-face and therefore have the opportunity to clarify exactly what they're asking for before I sell it.
I fail to see the line of thought you think is happening. If the customers believe it means month returns only, your suggestion is that they see day returns in the list, and then purchase it anyway despite not wanting that when they searched and thinking they shouldn't be there?
But you've no idea what the customer was thinking when they purchased their ticket. Whereas I find myself dealing with customers face-to-face and therefore have the opportunity to clarify exactly what they're asking for before I sell it.
It’s the value of ticket offices and buying from people rather than machines.
I’m now accustomed to asking for “a cheap day return to Manchester, please, I’m coming back before 4pm” only to pre-empt the question, thanks to the annoying afternoon peak return restrictions which should be abolished.
I fail to see the line of thought you think is happening. If the customers believe it means month returns only, your suggestion is that they see day returns in the list, and then purchase it anyway despite not wanting that when they searched and thinking they shouldn't be there?
I do come across a fair number of customers who use Trainline's "Open Return" tab and then blindly select the first option in the list, only to wonder why their ticket has disappeared when they come to make their return journey a week later. "But I bought an 'Open Return'" and show me those words in the confirmation email, before I point out the 'Anytime Day Return' buried in small print. Quite a number may also be saved by the fact that they are going on journeys for which no day return exists (and where there are no splits that would include one) and therefore don't get caught out when they blindly pick the first option that appears.
When selling a ticket, I always ask someone (even if they asked for a single) whether they might be coming back "today or another day" and offer them the prices because not everyone is aware that period returns exist. I do get passengers specifically asking for an "Open Return". I could roughly split these down into two groups - a small group of mostly teenage girls (which seems oddly specific but does match my experience) who are after the Anytime Day Return; and adult passengers - prominently including many international students who intend to try and get away with reusing the ticket as if it were a season - who are after a ticket valid on later dates.
I think what we can conclude from all this is that this post below has hit the nail on the head:
If "Open Return" just means any flexible return then the term is useless because every (common) return ticket is flexible anyway. Maybe the term and option should be scrapped entirely and replaced with "Flexible Return" which leads to separate day/period return options.
I think the term causes more confusion than it's worth.
The use of the generic term "Open Return" with no clear agreement of definition is confusing for passengers and should probably be replaced. Preferably with retailers providing "Day Return" and "Period Return" options. I'm not sure if there's a better wording that could be used for "Period Return", such as "Month Return" because there may be issues with people confusing them (deliberately or accidentally) with Monthly Seasons.
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Having a passenger who is clear on what they want is certainly much appreciated at this end. Much easier than me trying to clarify which of three possibly valid Day Return tickets suit the customer best for a journey of less than ten minutes.
I do come across a fair number of customers who use Trainline's "Open Return" tab and then blindly select the first option in the list, only to wonder why their ticket has disappeared when they come to make their return journey a week later. "But I bought an 'Open Return'" and show me those words in the confirmation email, before I point out the 'Anytime Day Return' buried in small print. Quite a number may also be saved by the fact that they are going on journeys for which no day return exists (and where there are no splits that would include one) and therefore don't get caught out when they blindly pick the first option that appears.
I can absolutely understand this. However, there are a couple of things I think worthy of note
There's obviously a significant bias here because the vast majority that do understand and travel fine don't speak to you (similarly that part of the reason Trainline get so much flack is because they sell such a high proportion of the tickets - not that they don't get things very wrong sometimes, but compared to some of the truly garbage TOC online and TVM points they aren't that bad).
There's also the point that no matter what you do there will be some amount of people that will get it wrong still - people still book on the wrong day, for the wrong train, the wrong number of people, and the same will be true for this. Retailers can and should work to improve their UX to reduce the number of passengers buying the wrong ticket, as they should in all scenarios, but even with a perfect UI this will still happen, and that's something we have to accept.
The use of the generic term "Open Return" with no clear agreement of definition is confusing for passengers and should probably be replaced. Preferably with retailers providing "Day Return" and "Period Return" options. I'm not sure if there's a better wording that could be used for "Period Return", such as "Month Return" because there may be issues with people confusing them (deliberately or accidentally) with Monthly Seasons.
I don't think people should have to choose between them upfront - if you want to return same day, and you don't know whether your route has day returns or period returns or both then you're screwed. I also think "Flexible Return" would cause problems, because "Flexible" is already a word commonly used for non-Advance tickets. I think we also need to consider the risk of confusing the (vast) majority who use this term correctly every day - there's a substantial risk of change causing issues there.
Fundamentally, I don't think "Open Return" as a phrase is the problem. I (personally) think the answer is making sure validity periods are clear in the purchase process - anecdotally, the cases we've seen of this confusion were massively skewed to frontends that weren't as clear, and we see very few on frontends that make it blindingly obvious. Whether Trainline falls into the "Required Improvement" or is simply in the "Inevitable people combined with high volume" I don't know either way.
When selling a ticket, I always ask someone (even if they asked for a single) whether they might be coming back "today or another day" and offer them the prices because not everyone is aware that period returns exist. I do get passengers specifically asking for an "Open Return". I could roughly split these down into two groups - a small group of mostly teenage girls (which seems oddly specific but does match my experience) who are after the Anytime Day Return; and adult passengers - prominently including many international students who intend to try and get away with reusing the ticket as if it were a season - who are after a ticket valid on later dates.
I think asking at an in person outlet is the right thing to do, and that's effectively what the online retail sites are doing (if they make it appropriately clear). It's giving you the choice between the validity options:
I think in terms of sales there's also likely to be a difference in people's understanding at an in persons sales outlet compared to online. Firstly you have the potential difference in customer demographic, who might be more weighted to the older understanding. And secondly, in person you generally aren't planning with itineraries (at least not by default for short(ish) journeys), so "a return" is all you need to say, there's no need for "open return" or anything to specify you don't want to pick a return itinerary - that means people asking for an open return are more likely to be using the old definition (the teenage girls using it for day returns anecdote is interesting though!).
I mean, basically every retailer is the same - you are offered the choice in the journey planner before you search of "Single", "Return", and "Open Return".
Despite repeated claims (not just from you) that all retailers are the same, they are not.
A few days ago I bought tickets for two people from a retailer who makes no reference to ‘open return’ and does not require selection of trains.
I deliberately used this retailer as the people concerned are very infrequent travellers and I know very well that if the confirmation email mentioned particular trains they would believe they must catch those trains even though the tickets are Anytime returns.
They could of course buy these Anytime tickets on the day but would be fretting about getting the wrong ones. When giving them the tickets it was not straightforward convincing them that Anytime meant exactly that.
The use of the generic term "Open Return" with no clear agreement of definition is confusing for passengers and should probably be replaced. Preferably with retailers providing "Day Return" and "Period Return" options. I'm not sure if there's a better wording that could be used for "Period Return", such as "Month Return" because there may be issues with people confusing them (deliberately or accidentally) with Monthly Seasons.
IMO wrong to be selling "Open Return" as it does not actually exist. How does this fit with consumer law? Presumably outside 'Sale of Goods' act as travel tickets are not goods.
As you say "Period Return" is difficult to rename because valid for a calendar month so over 4 years all of 28, 29, 30 & 31 days not specifically 30 or 31 days. If say always 30 days then this could be clearly stated as
'one outward journey upto 5 days of the date shown on the outward ticket followed by one inward journey upto 30 days of the date shown on the return ticket'. Wordy and maybe someone can make it more concise.
Any season or multi-journey ticket should clearly state this at the point of purchase and on the ticket else other than rangers and rovers all tickets clearly defined to be valid only for one journey.
The problem is that you don’t buy a ticket online, you buy an itinerary which has an associated ticket. I hate it, but I know enough to look up the ticket details to make sure I’m getting what I want. Often by selecting a train I have no intention of using.
If I’m buying from a ticket office I assume “open return” means “SOR” and I ask for “saver return” “SVR” and ”cheap day return” “CDR” which I know are no longer the official names but are the abbreviations used.
I always know the ticket I want to buy but am annoyed when the ticket office is closed and I have to use a machine.
Meanwhile SWR are doing their best to confuse! I got these after hitting the Open Return tab.
Edit. Apologies. I failed to describe the wording in the uploaded screenshot.
The app is quoting among others, options of an Anytime Day Return and an Anytime Open Return. The text beneath the latter states "return within 1 month"
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Mind you. I'm not sure what the alternative is, other than to resurrect the words "Period Return" for the second choice.
The meanings are made made clear in the text immediately below each heading
Does that mean they use "Open Return" = unrestricted Day/Period?
I've just looked at my Northern app - the least unworkable solution I can see would be a 5th tab for "Day Open Return" but it would rather clutter the tab line (and the wording is a mouthful). Under that tab you would also have to list "Open Return" as "Offpeak" can sometimes be more advantageous than "Offpeak Day."
I am just coming here after trying to buy a ticket on Trainline to London from an Anglian town. I selected "Open Return" as that is what I always ask for at the train station when i want to stay in the London for the weekend. In the past, to me, it always meant a month.
But then, just as I am literally buying the ticket, I thought I would double check. With no luck on their site, or other sites on the net, i ended up here.
If you search https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/great-britain/ticket-types/return-train-tickets its really unclear which one they mean. Basically it could be any kind of return, including a day return . At the beginning I can choose, single, return, open-return. So I choose open return -- but from then on , there is no choice at all of the return type.
I am actually not sure what to click on now!
I am speaking both as a confused member of the public, and as someone who was involved in the Lennon/ORCATS UK ticketing system upgrade, so I am not completely unaware of how this is supposed to work. The point being I guess, that if someone like me has knowlege of the internal workings doesn't know, how can a member of the public be expected to guess?
I am just coming here after trying to buy a ticket on Trainline to London from an Anglian town. I selected "Open Return" as that is what I always ask for at the train station when i want to stay in the London for the weekend. In the past, to me, it always meant a month.
But then, just as I am literally buying the ticket, I thought I would double check. With no luck on their site, or other sites on the net, i ended up here.
If you search https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/great-britain/ticket-types/return-train-tickets its really unclear which one they mean. Basically it could be any kind of return, including a day return . At the beginning I can choose, single, return, open-return. So I choose open return -- but from then on , there is no choice at all of the return type.
I am actually not sure what to click on now!
I am speaking both as a confused member of the public, and as someone who was involved in the Lennon/ORCATS UK ticketing system upgrade, so I am not completely unaware of how this is supposed to work. The point being I guess, that if someone like me has knowlege of the internal workings doesn't know, how can a member of the public be expected to guess?
Exactly this, and tend to agree with Krokodil (although I can see the point OscarH is making)
This is exactly what happened to my daughter today, although she didnt notice it in time!
She was travelling Brighton to Vauxhall today (off peak) and was not sure when she was coming back, either tomorrow or Friday.
So she selected 'Open return' from the 3 options of 'Single', 'Return' or 'Open return' (not unreasonable in my view).
The results showed a series of possible outbound trains for today, and no return trains (again, probably what she would have expected to see as she didnt want to select a return train as she didnt know when she would be returning, hence selecting 'Open return'.)
The ONLY ticket offered was at £21.55.
This is actually a Super Off peak Day travel card. The name of the ticket, and obviously then the fact that this means that you need to return the same day isnt mentioned at all in any of the options in the left hand column, nor anywhere towards the top of the right hand column. Its first mentioned, in fairly small font, towards the bottom of the right hand column. She missed that, and bought a completely unsuitable ticket (cue text to Dad!).
try it yourselves on a pc/laptop/tablet and you'll see what I mean!
The forum site, as I'd hoped, is quite a lot better. The right hand column is clearly divided into 2 sets of results, with the first headed in large bold type ' Return the same day' and the second 'Return within 1 month' Well done to the forum ticket team!
Is the Trainline misleading / misselling to people? It certainly fooled my daughter, who is an intelligent young women with a lot of Rail travel experience. Can it be right to ONLY offer day returns when the user has specified "Open return", and then, furthermore, make that quite hard to spot?
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Fundamentally, I don't think "Open Return" as a phrase is the problem. I (personally) think the answer is making sure validity periods are clear in the purchase process - anecdotally, the cases we've seen of this confusion were massively skewed to frontends that weren't as clear, and we see very few on frontends that make it blindingly obvious. Whether Trainline falls into the "Required Improvement" or is simply in the "Inevitable people combined with high volume" I don't know either way
Yes; I tend to agree with that Oscar. Id say; based my daughters experience and my testing the Trainline afterwards; that the Trainline definitely 'requires Improvment', bordering on downright mis-selling. I know that late rin the process it says 'Day Return' but thats a long way down the line for a lot of much more prominent UI that nudges the user in the wrong direction.
The answer to the question:
Give me an 'Open Return' leaving today, no return date selected
shouldnt be:
here are a whole series of 'Cheapest' options, each one of which is a ticket which is only valid to return today but not indicated as such
I mean, basically every retailer is the same - you are offered the choice in the journey planner before you search of "Single", "Return", and "Open Return". If so many passengers are using the Open Return option to buy day return tickets then I'd argue that is what customers wants and are expecting.
'Wants' and 'expecting' are completely different things.
What the customer making a regular journey - and knowing what ticket they need - wants is a way of buying (for example) an off-peak day return between two stations without messing around with a journey planner. They select the 'open return' option because they know they will otherwise have to specify a date and time and select a service, and they don't want to do that. They don't want to do it for the outbound leg either, but there's no way of avoiding it.
It doesn't necessarily mean the customer agrees with the retailers' absurd definition of "open return" where the outbound portion appears at first glance to be tied to a specific service (though in fact it isn't tied to a specific service, and the better retailers will make this clear at some point before purchase, but not normally at the point of choosing a fare) and only the return leg is not tied to a specific service.
The fact the industry insists on making people use a journey planner and select an itinerary on the outbound leg doesn't necessarily mean that's what people want.
The way I use cross-London off-peak day returns normally involves either starting short or breaking the journey - I can't get an itinerary that reflects my intentions, even if I knew at the time of purchase exactly which train I wanted to get. Utilising break of journey rights may be a bit niche, but given the station where I board has 8 trains an hour going towards London, I can't believe I'm the only person who doesn't always know when I buy the ticket exactly which train I'll be catching.
Yet the retailers seem to have a real problem with this: a couple of weeks ago I abandoned a journey and had to apply for a refund, but I had to email customer relations because the retailer's online form couldn't cope with me saying I used a train other than the one on my itinerary.
Open return surely means simply that you do not wish to specify (or cannot at the point of purchase know) exactly which train you intend to return on. The site (or person) selling the ticket needs to make it very clear whether the ticket they are offering / selling is only valid for one day or a longer period.
Open return surely means simply that you do not wish to specify (or cannot at the point of purchase know) exactly which train you intend to return on. The site (or person) selling the ticket needs to make it very clear whether the ticket they are offering / selling is only valid for one day or a longer period.
I think it should include all the routes, but again they should be made clear. Some people will be happy to limit the flexibility and some won't.
(although if I remember right basically all the Avanti only tickets are Orcats raids, they used to drive me up the wall between Coventry and Brum; those ones should simply be deleted)
I think it should include all the routes, but again they should be made clear. Some people will be happy to limit the flexibility and some won't.
(although if I remember right basically all the Avanti only tickets are Orcats raids, they used to drive me up the wall between Coventry and Brum; those ones should simply be deleted)
They probably should be deleted, but as long as they exist they probably should be shown alongside the ticket that costs 20p more and is valid by any operator. The reason Orcats raids worked is that the big retailers basically hid all the other fares.
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