What is an "Open Return"?

[35B]

Would you say that it should include only "any permitted" tickets or should the definition also include operator specific ones.

I had so many people yesterday say "but I bought an open return" when I pointed out that they had a Northern only or Avanti ticket.

The term "open return" implies a high degree of flexibility, so the usage should be limited to "any permitted" tickets and not allowed to be operator specific. If the ticket is restricted by any of time, operator or route, it should not be listed as "open" and the retailer should have an obligation to ensure that the restriction is clearly understood.

 

[don_lennon]

So it turns out that the

I am just coming here after trying to buy a ticket on Trainline to London from an Anglian town. I selected "Open Return" as that is what I always ask for at the train station when i want to stay in the London for the weekend. In the past, to me, it always meant a month.
But then, just as I am literally buying the ticket, I thought I would double check. With no luck on their site, or other sites on the net, i ended up here.

If you search https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/great-britain/ticket-types/return-train-tickets its really unclear which one they mean. Basically it could be any kind of return, including a day return . At the beginning I can choose, single, return, open-return. So I choose open return -- but from then on , there is no choice at all of the return type.
I am actually not sure what to click on now!
I am speaking both as a confused member of the public, and as someone who was involved in the Lennon/ORCATS UK ticketing system upgrade, so I am not completely unaware of how this is supposed to work. The point being I guess, that if someone like me has knowlege of the internal workings doesn't know, how can a member of the public be expected to guess?

So it turns out that the ticket that came up on the "open return" that I almost purchased (Col - Lon) is a "London Evening Out" ticket code F0 . This was nowhere stated in the Trainline website, I had to go to the main Network rail and search for the same ticket.

This is a very specific ticket type with specific restrictions. Even the NR site conditions are a bit complicated.

 

[Adam Williams]

The term "open return" implies a high degree of flexibility, so the usage should be limited to "any permitted" tickets and not allowed to be operator specific. If the ticket is restricted by any of time, operator or route, it should not be listed as "open" and the retailer should have an obligation to ensure that the restriction is clearly understood.

This is simply not a view shared by a majority of real customers. On some flows the only period return is an Off-Peak ticket. You seem to suggest customers should not be offered this in conjunction with an open return search (where the customer does not provide a specific return date/time) at all, and only e.g. an Anytime Day Return be offered in these cases.

Retailers should absolutely be making the restrictions clear, but there is no way in which they can "ensure it is understood".

 

[35B]

This is simply not a view shared by a majority of real customers. On some flows the only period return is an Off-Peak ticket. You seem to suggest customers should not be offered this in conjunction with an open return search (where the customer does not provide a specific return date/time) at all, and only e.g. an Anytime Day Return be offered in these cases.

Retailers should absolutely be making the restrictions clear, but there is no way in which they can "ensure it is understood".

That scenario raises other issues, but I take the point that suppressing it would cause unreasonable issues in the absence of proper single leg pricing (I know…).

I accept that a retailer can’t ensure someone understands a condition, but I do feel the balance in the industry is in the wrong place. That requires clear, plain, English and an absence of complexity in the condition(s). Again, the objective should be that anything retailed as an “open return” has the minimum of conditions, and the maximum clarity on those.

 

[saismee]

Just recently had someone show me an Off-Peak Day Return ticket dated for the day prior and said they chose open return. They were very confused when I tried to explain that they do have an open return ticket, but that their definition for "open return" was wrong. I reminded them to check the ticket type in future and let them off.

This wording seriously needs to go, even if it is realistically people's own faults for buying day returns.

 

[don_lennon]

This is simply not a view shared by a majority of real customers. On some flows the only period return is an Off-Peak ticket. You seem to suggest customers should not be offered this in conjunction with an open return search (where the customer does not provide a specific return date/time) at all, and only e.g. an Anytime Day Return be offered in these cases.

Retailers should absolutely be making the restrictions clear, but there is no way in which they can "ensure it is understood".

These terms and conditions should be crystal clear , and it is nit-picking to say they 'can't ensure it's understood', since we cannot get inside a consumer's mind, but the intention of 35B here is clear.

Now if all of this was directed under standard consumer civil law , then it wouldn't matter if these mistakes were made, and someone who had bought the wrong ticket would have excellent recourse, as if they were mis-sold a car or given the wrong meal in a restaurant.

However we have a case of private commercial organisations and the regulated private partners such as trainline actually being able to function under the umbrella of a subset of UK criminal laws. As we know , the public side of the railway system has had it's own criminal law provisions for a long time, but what we are seeing is the ability of the completely private sections of the service (private TOCs, Trainline etc) to push standard consumer rights to the limit, but actually be protected under the UK criminal law. In fact it's part of the reason that the monopoly TOCs couldnt work as, not only was competition difficult to enact, but consumers had very little rights to fight back with due to shoddy service.

The private TOCs have long known that they can operate with the secure knowledge that their income is actually protected by criminal law provisions, and indeed it was one of the attractions.
So if the Trainline sells the wrong ticket , and is not clear , it is the passenger who is liable to criminal prosecution . This can (and does) happen.

 

[Krokodil]

This is simply not a view shared by a majority of real customers.

So what do the real customers think? Is there a study somewhere? Certainly the ones I ended up charging for having the wrong tickets on Tuesday thought that they'd bought a ticket with no TOC restrictions. The ones today with out of date Day Returns considered "open return" to be a period one. When I am selling a ticket and ask "are you coming back today or another day?" often the answer is simply "open".

People who ask for an "open return" when they want to return on the same day (so presumably are expecting an SDR) are definitely a minority in my years of selling tickets. For some reason they are predominantly teenage girls.

On some flows the only period return is an Off-Peak ticket.

Are they mainly ones where there are only token restrictions? Up here they're coded 8A where no SOR exists. Quite a lot of my passengers who ask for an "open return" to London are quite happy with an SVR when I explain the VK restriction (leave London no later than 9am Mon-Thurs, no restrictions Fri-Sun). Obviously I only offer this if it would be valid for the outbound journey they are already on, there aren't many trains where this would be an issue.

Just recently had someone show me an Off-Peak Day Return ticket dated for the day prior and said they chose open return. They were very confused when I tried to explain that they do have an open return ticket, but that their definition for "open return" was wrong. I reminded them to check the ticket type in future and let them off.

This wording seriously needs to go, even if it is realistically people's own faults for buying day returns.

Had a group just now whose Anytime Day Returns from yesterday had been moved to the archive section on their Trainline app. Which when clicked on showed their outward time, and "open return".

It looks like the best approach for non-face-to-face retailing is not to use the remaining "open return" at all and to just refer to "day" and "period" returns. That's the approach taken by the TVMs up here.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

This was nowhere stated in the Trainline website, I had to go to the main Network rail and search for the same ticket.

It was stated pretty clearly when I looked at the Trainline website. Same on mobile.

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This wording seriously needs to go, even if it is realistically people's own faults for buying day returns.

I understand why it's there, though. On the one hand, customers don't want the faff of having to select two trains (even when returning the same day). On the other hand, they don't ensure that they're buying the right ticket for the journey they want to make. I recall a thread where someone wanted to buy a period return ticket on Uber, which doesn't have the "open return" feature, but they chose dates a month apart, so they were sold two singles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

It looks like the best approach for non-face-to-face retailing is not to use the remaining "open return" at all and to just refer to "day" and "period" returns. That's the approach taken by the TVMs up here.

100%, although it's perhaps better for the search not to be split (in cases where some flows only have one or the other), and have the customer choose explicitly whether they want a day or period return (and not be sold the cheap day return by default).

 

[don_lennon]

So what do the real customers think? Is there a study somewhere? Certainly the ones I ended up charging for having the wrong tickets on Tuesday thought that they'd bought a ticket with no TOC restrictions. The ones today with out of date Day Returns considered "open return" to be a period one. When I am selling a ticket and ask "are you coming back today or another day?" often the answer is simply "open".

People who ask for an "open return" when they want to return on the same day (so presumably are expecting an SDR) are definitely a minority in my years of selling tickets. For some reason they are predominantly teenage girls.


Are they mainly ones where there are only token restrictions? Up here they're coded 8A where no SOR exists. Quite a lot of my passengers who ask for an "open return" to London are quite happy with an SVR when I explain the VK restriction (leave London no later than 9am Mon-Thurs, no restrictions Fri-Sun). Obviously I only offer this if it would be valid for the outbound journey they are already on, there aren't many trains where this would be an issue.


Had a group just now whose Anytime Day Returns from yesterday had been moved to the archive section on their Trainline app. Which when clicked on showed their outward time, and "open return".

It looks like the best approach for non-face-to-face retailing is not to use the remaining "open return" at all and to just refer to "day" and "period" returns. That's the approach taken by the TVMs up here.

yes agreed. If I want a day return , I would ask for a day-return

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It was stated pretty clearly when I looked at the Trainline website. Same on mobile.

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I understand why it's there, though. On the one hand, customers don't want the faff of having to select two trains (even when returning the same day). On the other hand, they don't ensure that they're buying the right ticket for the journey they want to make. I recall a thread where someone wanted to buy a period return ticket on Uber, which doesn't have the "open return" feature, but they chose dates a month apart, so they were sold two singles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==


100%, although it's perhaps better for the search not to be split (in cases where some flows only have one or the other), and have the customer choose explicitly whether they want a day or period return (and not be sold the cheap day return by default).

Thanks, I checked again and I stand corrected - I had seen that but I had not assumed it was a ticket type! I thought it was some advert or cross-promotional offer "London Evening Out"

 

[Hadders]

It looks like the best approach for non-face-to-face retailing is not to use the remaining "open return" at all and to just refer to "day" and "period" returns

I agree with this. ‘Open Return’ is confusing (as shown by this thread) and needs to be binned off.

 

[saismee]

It's like im being watched! Someone came up to me today and asked me what an open return ticket is!!

 

[fandroid]

Is there any actual reason why "Cheap Day Returns" should exist? A return is a return, whatever day it's used. Same use of railway resources.

I know it's embedded in railway history, from before Savers were invented, but we shouldn't assume that it has some deeper meaning. That said, abolishing them would be tricky as they are cheaper!

 

[saismee]

Is there any actual reason why "Cheap Day Returns" should exist? A return is a return, whatever day it's used. Same use of railway resources.

I know it's embedded in railway history, from before Savers were invented, but we shouldn't assume that it has some deeper meaning. That said, abolishing them would be tricky as they are cheaper!

Cheap Day Returns are just Off-Peak Day Return tickets. Are you talking about off-peak fares or day return fares as a whole?

 

[redreni]

It was stated pretty clearly when I looked at the Trainline website. Same on mobile.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==


I understand why it's there, though. On the one hand, customers don't want the faff of having to select two trains (even when returning the same day). On the other hand, they don't ensure that they're buying the right ticket for the journey they want to make. I recall a thread where someone wanted to buy a period return ticket on Uber, which doesn't have the "open return" feature, but they chose dates a month apart, so they were sold two singles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==


100%, although it's perhaps better for the search not to be split (in cases where some flows only have one or the other), and have the customer choose explicitly whether they want a day or period return (and not be sold the cheap day return by default).

Agreed. I made this point further up. Either the website selling me the ticket trusts me to pick the ticket I want and check the restrictions if I need to, to make sure it is suitable for me, or it doesn't.

I've no idea why it generally trusts me in relation to the return leg but not the outbound leg?

 

[fandroid]

Cheap Day Returns are just Off-Peak Day Return tickets. Are you talking about off-peak fares or day return fares as a whole?

Day return fares as a whole. I'd guess they started out as "Cheap Day Returns" because they were in fact cheaper than two Singles or even an "ordinary" Return. I'm trying to delve tentatively back into early BR history here, without having more than the vaguest knowledge.

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I don't even know when the concept of Off-Peak started. Knowing my luck someone will tell me it was 1872

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or somesuch very early date.

 

[Tester]

Day return fares as a whole. I'd guess they started out as "Cheap Day Returns" because they were in fact cheaper than two Singles or even an "ordinary" Return. I'm trying to delve tentatively back into early BR history here, without having more than the vaguest knowledge.

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I don't even know when the concept of Off-Peak started. Knowing my luck someone will tell me it was 1872

My recollection (south west London in the 1960s) is that cheap day returns were issued 'against the flow' and were valid on any train on the day of issue, and were issued as beige Edmondson cards.

Whereas day returns 'with the flow' carried both morning and evening restrictions, were called off peak day returns, and were issued as pink Edmondson cards.

Topically, the off peak day returns could be excessed for half the difference to allow evening peak travel.

 

[LYradial]

Day return fares as a whole. I'd guess they started out as "Cheap Day Returns" because they were in fact cheaper than two Singles or even an "ordinary" Return. I'm trying to delve tentatively back into early BR history here, without having more than the vaguest knowledge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==

I don't even know when the concept of Off-Peak started. Knowing my luck someone will tell me it was 1872

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or somesuch very early date.

Googling “cheap day return uk” and searching images will produce a British railways advertisement proclaiming cheap day returns,from the science museum collection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==

Googling “cheap day return uk” and searching images will produce a British railways advertisement proclaiming cheap day returns,from the science museum collection.

Adding a link to the advertisement

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co8058648/cheap-day-return-tickets

 

[yorkie]

If anyone hasn't yet voted, here is a further opportunity to do so...

 

[mmh]

Sorry for the delaying replying - wanted to wait and look at some stats to reply properly.

Out of all the open returns sold by Raileasy since the start of August, well over 50% were day returns not month returns (and the very small number of people who mistakenly thought it was a period return does not even move the needle towards the other way).

You can know how many tickets of whatever type were sold, but you can't know how many were bought in mistake.

 

[OscarH]

You can know how many tickets of whatever type were sold, but you can't know how many were bought in mistake.

If a large chunk of the people buying day tickets were doing it by mistake, I think it would be clear from the customer service inbox