What in the class 91 is going on here?

[yoyothehobo]

In the youtube link below at Stoke Tunnel there are some very very curious 91 movements from 1989.

These include what looks like a charter train and some running with 5 mk3 sleeper coaches both forward and blunt end forward.

Anything to shed light on this mystery?

 

[43066]

Testing of the 91s in different configurations before they entered squadron service?

 

[Flying Snail]

It was originally planned that the 91s would do more than just the core ECML IC service, fast freight such as parcels, sleepers and I suppose charters as well. It is part of the reason why they were built with the second blunt cab rather than as a single cab power car.

 

[hexagon789]

Mk3 sleepers were often used in the 91 testing as before the Mk4s appeared in any significant numbers, they were the only spare coaches BR had that could be run at 125mph. They had an excess of them, as too many were built for the declining sleeper traffic requirements.

 

[Stampy]

I can still remember the 91's running with a HST power car on the other end - those things SHIFTED....

 

[hexagon789]

I can still remember the 91's running with a HST power car on the other end - those things SHIFTED....

At least 8,315hp short-term, probably slightly higher.

(Based on the 91s short-term output of 4,830kW (6,477hp) and an HST's traction motor rating of 1,838hp continuous.)

 

[sprinterguy]

Class 91s were used on some Hertfordshire Railtours charters on the ECML immediately post-electrification.

The sleeper stock, as noted above, was commonly used for test workings as they were rated for fast running and available.

 

[DarloRich]

I recall going to London around the time of ECML electrification and seeing a couple of rakes of mkiii sleepers stabled at Newark Northgate. That was very exciting. We didn't get sleepers on the ECML!

it is only in later years that one learns they may have been there for testing purposes.

 

[Strathclyder]

I can still remember the 91's running with a HST power car on the other end - those things SHIFTED....

At least 8,315hp short-term, probably slightly higher.

(Based on the 91s short-term output of 4,830kW (6,477hp) and an HST's traction motor rating of 1,838hp continuous.)

As has been pretty well documented, the HST power cars were used as DVTs with the 91s initially with the engine left at idle for auxiliary purposes; the power cars had at first been converted purely for testing the 91s when released from the works. Worth mentioning here is that there was something of a precursor to this practice on the WCML, with a 86 and 43 sandwiching a rake of Mk2s (linked images below).

However, the Valentas didn't much like being left at idle for extended periods and after several exhaust fires - unburnt fuel building up in the exhausts; a particularly bad one damaged several hundred yards of freshly installed OHLE - modifications were thereafter made to the control system so that the 43 could supply traction power normally. The result was, like you say @Stampy, akin to a hot-rod with nitrous installed.

43123 at Birmingham New Street

43123 leaving Birmingham New Street. Being used as a DVT on the 16:18hrs to London Euston at 16:20hrs on the 1st of March 1988. 86240 was on the other end of the train

www.flickr.com

86240 'Bishop Eric Treacy' at Birmingham New Street

86240 'Bishop Eric Treacy' at Birmingham New Street on the rear of the 16:18 off Birmingham to London Euston push pull using hst powercar 43123 on the front at 16:21hrs on the 1st of March 1988

www.flickr.com

(copyright of Flickr's blackwatch55013 aka John Webster)

 

[Helvellyn]

I guess on the WCML 43123 was just dead to act as a DVT because the 86 was providing the ETH, whereas on the ECML the power was needed to provide three-phase supply to the HST trailers given HSTs didn't use ETH. So the exhaust fires would have been unexpected.

 

[hexagon789]

I guess on the WCML 43123 was just dead to act as a DVT because the 86 was providing the ETH, whereas on the ECML the power was needed to provide three-phase supply to the HST trailers given HSTs didn't use ETH. So the exhaust fires would have been unexpected.

Correct, the engine was isolated and the power car purely used as a driving trailer.

 

[43096]

Mk3 sleepers were often used in the 91 testing as before the Mk4s appeared in any significant numbers, they were the only spare coaches BR had that could be run at 125mph. They had an excess of them, as too many were built for the declining sleeper traffic requirements.

But they presumably could not run above 110mph when working just with the sleepers as there was no brake pipe pressure control unit (E70 or DW2) at the rear of the train.

 

[Strathclyder]

I guess on the WCML 43123 was just dead to act as a DVT because the 86 was providing the ETH, whereas on the ECML the power was needed to provide three-phase supply to the HST trailers given HSTs didn't use ETH. So the exhaust fires would have been unexpected.

Correct, the engine was isolated and the power car purely used as a driving trailer.

That does make sense, yeah. Sticking with this and a idle thought has been nagging at me: did the 89 ever find itself working with the HST DVTs post-modification? I'm aware that it worked with them on Peterborough - King's Cross peak hour runs when it first entered service, but I'm referring to the post-exhaust fire period here.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In the youtube link below at Stoke Tunnel there are some very very curious 91 movements from 1989.

These include what looks like a charter train and some running with 5 mk3 sleeper coaches both forward and blunt end forward.

Anything to shed light on this mystery?

Is it just me that found the most unusual movement in the video to be the 156 appearing on the southern ECML?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Some more info on this recent thread

ECML electric service introduction 1989-91

Apologies if there's already a thread on this (if there is I can't find it), but as I recall the Class 91s first entered service on King's Cross-Leeds services in March 1989, initially with HST sets but with a 91 in place of one power car while the other power car effectively became a surrogate...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

OPs video, 1m 45s to 2m 05s shows the Tees-Tyne Pullman HST service:
Three FOs, two with Pullman crest amidships,
The TLUK (I think) third carriage from front.

 

[hexagon789]

But they presumably could not run above 110mph when working just with the sleepers as there was no brake pipe pressure control unit (E70 or DW2) at the rear of the train.

The sleepers were usually run with a 'surrogate' HST PC DVTs and often the Mk3 test car.

Not sure if they ran without a DVT other than with Mk2s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

That does make sense, yeah. Sticking with this and a idle thought has been nagging at me: did the 89 ever find itself working with the HST DVTs post-modification? I'm aware that it worked with them on Peterborough - King's Cross peak hour runs when it first entered service, but I'm referring to the post-exhaust fire period here.

Yes, though it lacked TDM initially so ran services such as 1735 to Peterborough, which was usually an HST set anyway, with a Mk1 BG included as a barrier vehicle and the set hauled conventionally.

I don't believe it gained TDM until into Mk4 days, when it was often used on similar duties to its GNER period, until it suffered a major failure and was stored at Bounds Green.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Is it just me that found the most unusual movement in the video to be the 156 appearing on the southern ECML?

I thoroughly enjoyed that as well to be honest

 

[hexagon789]

Is it just me that found the most unusual movement in the video to be the 156 appearing on the southern ECML?

North West to East Anglia duty presumably. The blind looks to read "Norwich".

 

[43096]

The sleepers were usually run with a 'surrogate' HST PC DVTs and often the Mk3 test car.

Not sure if they ran without a DVT other than with Mk2s.

See the video in the OP’s post for examples of them running just with sleepers.

There was at one point three test/commissioning sets for the 91s, all of which had a Mark 3 RFM in them. Don't think the RFMs lasted long before they went back to the West Coast again, but formations were reported as:
BN81 10202 10511 10521 10619 10706
BN82 10206 10509 10611 10618 10654
BN83 10204 10517 10518 10525 10615

 

[Strathclyder]

Yes, though it lacked TDM initially so ran services such as 1735 to Peterborough, which was usually an HST set anyway, with a Mk1 BG included as a barrier vehicle and the set hauled conventionally.

I don't believe it gained TDM until into Mk4 days, when it was often used on similar duties to its GNER period, until it suffered a major failure and was stored at Bounds Green.

As illustrated by Martin Loader below, on both the morning and evening workings it was initially assigned to:

89001 Abbots Ripton 16 August 1988

89001 Conington Fen 16 August 1988

I did suspect that it didn't gain TDM until the Mk4 era, just thought I'd ask either way.

Is it just me that found the most unusual movement in the video to be the 156 appearing on the southern ECML?

I thoroughly enjoyed that as well to be honest

North West to East Anglia duty presumably. The blind looks to read "Norwich".

156403 and it definitely appears to be on a Norwich-bound working there if the blind is to be believed. It's origin point I couldn't tell you tho.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

North West to East Anglia duty presumably. The blind looks to read "Norwich".

Thanks. To be honest I think I was having a senior moment and thought the footage was from further south!

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks. To be honest I think I was having a senior moment and thought the footage was from further south!

I wondered where 'south' was myself until I read it was only Stoke Bank!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2025 ==

I did suspect that it didn't gain TDM until the Mk4 era, just thought I'd ask either way.

Having since checked on the Train Testing website, it does appear to have been into the mainstream Mk4 era, when the surrogate HST push-pull sets were no more.

156403 and it definitely appears to be on a Norwich-bound working there if the blind is to be believed. It's origin point I couldn't tell you tho.

I'd assume a Birmingam or Liverpool to Norwich working.

 

[Strathclyder]

Having since checked on the Train Testing website, it does appear to have been into the mainstream Mk4 era, when the surrogate HST push-pull sets were no more.

I suspected as much.

I'd assume a Birmingam or Liverpool to Norwich working.

Yep, as would I. I too thought for a minute 'what on earth is a 156 doing on that part of the ECML?', before I realized it was only Stoke Bank lol

 

[ac6000cw]

I'd assume a Birmingam or Liverpool to Norwich working

It'll be a Northwest - Nottingham - Norwich working, the Birmingham trains normally go via Stamford so don't run over Stoke Bank.

 

[Magdalia]

156403 and it definitely appears to be on a Norwich-bound working there if the blind is to be believed. It's origin point I couldn't tell you tho.

The first batch of class 156s were new to Norwich in 1988, and they were used on the cross country services between East Anglia and the Midlands/North West. The class 156s were relegated onto the local services a few years later after the arrival of class 158s.

 

[hexagon789]

See the video in the OP’s post for examples of them running just with sleepers.

There was at one point three test/commissioning sets for the 91s, all of which had a Mark 3 RFM in them. Don't think the RFMs lasted long before they went back to the West Coast again, but formations were reported as:
BN81 10202 10511 10521 10619 10706
BN82 10206 10509 10611 10618 10654
BN83 10204 10517 10518 10525 10615

They might have permitted it in testing, having no rear brake unit. Either that kr imposed a 110 or even 100 limit, as when the 91s ran tests with Mk2 vehicles?

There were tests conducted with an 86 on the WCML in the early 70s, IIRC at up to 129/130mph (125 limit was set for testing), the Test Car was on 90mph bogies(!)... and I doubt they had any form of rear-end brake control.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

It'll be a Northwest - Nottingham - Norwich working, the Birmingham trains normally go via Stamford so don't run over Stoke Bank.

Did they do that back in 1988 as well though? I had an idea that the initial Sprinter timetable of cross-country workings towards Ipswich/Norwich was more varied in routings than today.

 

[43096]

They might have permitted it in testing, having no rear brake unit. Either that kr imposed a 110 or even 100 limit, as when the 91s ran tests with Mk2 vehicles?

I would be amazed if normal training/commissioning runs allowed 125mph running without a rear brake unit as it is linked with braking distances. Some specific testing under test conditions with DM&EE staff, possibly, but not more widely.

 

[Strathclyder]

It'll be a Northwest - Nottingham - Norwich working, the Birmingham trains normally go via Stamford so don't run over Stoke Bank.

The first batch of class 156s were new to Norwich in 1988, and they were used on the cross country services between East Anglia and the Midlands/North West. The class 156s were relegated onto the local services a few years later after the arrival of class 158s.

Cheers for the info/memory refresh there gents. I had known about the initial allocations & workings of the first 156s, but had forgotten key details.

 

[Magdalia]

Did they do that back in 1988 as well though? I had an idea that the initial Sprinter timetable of cross-country workings towards Ipswich/Norwich was more varied in routings than today.

Yes. The big timetable change was May 1988 when the loco hauled trains were replaced with class 156s and a very different timetable. Broadly speaking Norwich had 1tp2h to/from Birmingham and 1tp2h to/from Liverpool from May 1988.

 

[Deepgreen]

In the youtube link below at Stoke Tunnel there are some very very curious 91 movements from 1989.

These include what looks like a charter train and some running with 5 mk3 sleeper coaches both forward and blunt end forward.

Anything to shed light on this mystery?

Interesting, if unsteady, footage, seemingly taken from inside the fence...