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What I think is wrong with current OHLE electrification practice

AlastairFraser

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In 1972 we in Edinburgh were shown a battery bus. Of course, it had a limited range (and even that was not achieved on some days, and it had to be recovered by the breakdown wagon more than once) but we were told that, oh, battery technology is "advancing so rapidly" that in a few years time all would be overcome - sign here please. Fortunately the orders for 1975 diesel buses were not cancelled on hearing this ...

I seem to have heard exactly the same line recurring in most years ever since. Now in 2026, 54 years on, I pass the one experimental battery unit on Ealing to Greenford, hardly a "valuable" service, and after some years of it being there I have yet to see it operating, it's either parked up in the West Ealing sidings, or missing, and a diesel unit is operating.

When we can see commercially available, and cost-effective, battery trains actually running all day services, we will buy them. Until then we can carry on with what actually works.
There are actually successful BEMUs in operation abroad, so it's not like they aren't an option. We do have to consider that they are not suitable for all use cases though e.g. long stretches on 125mph+ main lines when most are only capable of 100mph without draining the battery too quickly.
 
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Taunton

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There are actually successful BEMUs in operation abroad,
Indeed, the UK trial from Aberdeen to Ballater in the 1950s worked quite well, the train did multiple 45-mile each way trips every day for a couple of years, and in Germany there were a large number of 1950s-60s battery railbuses, which now seem to have gone. But Bionic Duckweed, to quote Roger Ford, seems accurate.
 

mmh

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What I think is wrong is the colossal amount of diesel running under the wires. Seems so wasteful. If I was a politician I could not with a clean conscience authorize anymore OHLE. Definitely strengthen and improve what we have already.
I'd question whether it's truly colossal. If 70% of passenger mileage is already electric, then diesel on electrified routes is a fraction of 30%.

I expect most stations which are on electrified routes rarely if ever see a diesel service.
 

Class15

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What I think is wrong is the colossal amount of diesel running under the wires. Seems so wasteful. If I was a politician I could not with a clean conscience authorize anymore OHLE. Definitely strengthen and improve what we have already.
Even Oxford?

Being completely serious, it’s such a joke Oxford hasn’t been done.
 

Peter Sarf

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Even Oxford?

Being completely serious, it’s such a joke Oxford hasn’t been done.
It just seems logical to get to a main end point.

Oxford is one (even though a proportion of GW services then go onwards there is the Paddington/Oxford service to cover). It is/was awaiting Oxford remodelling or has it already been kicked into the long grass ?.

Swansea makes sense as it is just (he says) Cardiff to Swansea that was curtailed and the Paddington services terminate at Swansea.

Bristol area - how long do we have to wait for the remodelling to finish ?. Will that electrification get forgotten about.

Getting those three electrified would reduce the number of diesel engines to maintain as more 800s could be reverted to pure electric as planned (801s) so less maintenance required.
 

AndrewE

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In 1972 we in Edinburgh were shown a battery bus. Of course, it had a limited range (and even that was not achieved on some days, and it had to be recovered by the breakdown wagon more than once) but we were told that, oh, battery technology is "advancing so rapidly" that in a few years time all would be overcome - sign here please. Fortunately the orders for 1975 diesel buses were not cancelled on hearing this ...
Come on! give them some credit... That was extremely far-sighted back then and they may have paid the price for allowing the test-bed bus access to the real world or even being an early adopter. It's clear that batteries have now come to fruition and are powering transport in some places and lots of things when the Grid can't cope, like my house for example.

At least they (and most others) haven't been suckered into the hydrogen scam.
I seem to have heard exactly the same line recurring in most years ever since. Now in 2026, 54 years on, I pass the one experimental battery unit on Ealing to Greenford, hardly a "valuable" service, and after some years of it being there I have yet to see it operating, it's either parked up in the West Ealing sidings, or missing, and a diesel unit is operating.

When we can see commercially available, and cost-effective, battery trains actually running all day services, we will buy them. Until then we can carry on with what actually works.
Maybe a trip to Germany or Denmark beckons... https://railwaynews.net/battery-trains-europes-electrification-gwr-stadler-insights.html names them as using BEMUs.
 

Technologist

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In 1972 we in Edinburgh were shown a battery bus. Of course, it had a limited range (and even that was not achieved on some days, and it had to be recovered by the breakdown wagon more than once) but we were told that, oh, battery technology is "advancing so rapidly" that in a few years time all would be overcome - sign here please. Fortunately the orders for 1975 diesel buses were not cancelled on hearing this ...

I seem to have heard exactly the same line recurring in most years ever since. Now in 2026, 54 years on, I pass the one experimental battery unit on Ealing to Greenford, hardly a "valuable" service, and after some years of it being there I have yet to see it operating, it's either parked up in the West Ealing sidings, or missing, and a diesel unit is operating.

When we can see commercially available, and cost-effective, battery trains actually running all day services, we will buy them. Until then we can carry on with what actually works.
Context is for kings:

The Tesla Model S reached its first customer 14 years ago, the technology exists, works and has been replicated about 80 million time since then. In the first statement "improving battery technology" was a hopeful statement beholden to fundamental scientific progress in 1972. In 2026 battery technology is good enough and has been for about a decade.

Rail is a much more constrained industry than automotive, Elon Musk could rig up a demonstrator in 2005 and run it one the road. Provided that their first production car passed some homologation tests they could just offer it for sale direct to the customer and people could buy it if they wanted. Someone driving their Tesla Roadster on the road does not impede any other driver using their car or require any new infrastructure. It is a relatively permissionless environment.

In rail if you want something that is commercially available then someone actually has to place orders before the thing will exist, which means that the user and the producer actually have to work together before the commercial product is ready. That doesn't mean that we can't fairly easily work out that the product will work from first principles engineering. The system we have had over the last 30 years of TOCs, Network Rail and RSCOs is pretty much the worst system imaginable for technology development. The TOCs don't want to invest in technology or capital assets, the RSCOs don't want to be left holding rail vehicles that are made for a single TOC and Network Rail doesn't want to plan infrastructure around technologies it has no control over.

GBR can actually do the studies to show what electrification will be enough to let battery trains do the vast majority of passenger miles with relatively little additional electrification (maybe even a net reduction in actual length) and it can then get the trains developed that can actually do these routes. Personally I think GBR should get back into the space of actually developing prototypes and technology demonstrators as I've said before BEMUs should be capable of vastly greater performance than an EMU that is strangled by the OHLE.
 

HSTEd

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Perhaps, but why? We don't have a shortage of OHLE powered EMUs
Because not electrifying saves a huge pile of money.

Infrastructure is extraordinarily expensive in the current environment.
Hahaha I bet Churchward won't even replace the Thames Valley branches stock before the mid 2030s, if we don't start wiring again.
I don't see why additional significant electrification would be required to enable the decarbonisation of the Thames Valley branches.
At most they will need short sections of wire in the branch line platforms, connected to the main line electrification.

The procurement process might fail, sure, but that is rather a long shot to justify spend an awful lot of money on additional infrastructure.
That's utterly nuts - siphoning power off HS2 that could hamstring future operations to help electrify Chiltern, especially when you'd only need a few charging islands around Banbury, Birmingham and Marylebone to pretty much get rid of diesels on Chiltern metals.
The power siphoning would be so small as to be barely noticeable any time soon.

HS2's power supply system is designed for 18 400m trains per hour per direction running at up to 360kph. Each 400m set can have an installed power of something like 18MW.
A handful of short charging multiple units is background noise next to that.

If at some point HS2 needs all that power then you can upgrade the power supply at that time. Money spent decades from now is cheaper than money spent today.

EDIT:
The entire Chiltern fleet is only ~240 carriages at the end of the day!
 
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Taunton

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The system we have had over the last 30 years of TOCs, Network Rail and RSCOs is pretty much the worst system imaginable for technology development. The TOCs don't want to invest in technology or capital assets, the RSCOs don't want to be left holding rail vehicles that are made for a single TOC and Network Rail doesn't want to plan infrastructure around technologies it has no control over.
None of this stopped the USA diesel manufacturers, who had no ownership relation with the wide range of railroads there, from developing diesels which swept their market, and to a considerable extent the world. In earlier diesel times they built a whole range of demonstrators at their own expense, with new models which, for this new technology compared to steam locos, all absolutely worked out of the box from day one. As the railroads themselves were short of investment funds a range of banks and financiers set up to offer funding for all this.
 

Bald Rick

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Some of the 387s have to be retained for Heathrow Express use - which will continue to exist for some time, depending on the battle between Heathrow Airport and TfL on its future.
So you would have to maintain an additional variety of BEMU, unless you are ordering even more to replace Henley, Marlow, Windsor, Greenford, Basingstoke, Bedwyn, Banbury etc., and that's just the Turbos in the Thames Valley.

Youve missed the point. What is the additional maintenance liability of BEMUs over straight EMUs?

For a bonus point, expand your answer to include the net maintenance liability from not electrifying the lines BEMUs would be used on.


I seem to have heard exactly the same line recurring in most years ever since. Now in 2026, 54 years on, I pass the one experimental battery unit on Ealing to Greenford, hardly a "valuable" service, and after some years of it being there I have yet to see it operating, it's either parked up in the West Ealing sidings, or missing, and a diesel unit is operating.

When we can see commercially available, and cost-effective, battery trains actually running all day services, we will buy them. Until then we can carry on with what actually works.

I suggest you go to Headbolt Lane, or Cardiff, for a visit.
 

AlastairFraser

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Indeed, the UK trial from Aberdeen to Ballater in the 1950s worked quite well, the train did multiple 45-mile each way trips every day for a couple of years, and in Germany there were a large number of 1950s-60s battery railbuses, which now seem to have gone. But Bionic Duckweed, to quote Roger Ford, seems accurate.
Not exactly when they're successfully used to displace DMUs in quite a few countries now.
Getting those three electrified would reduce the number of diesel engines to maintain as more 800s could be reverted to pure electric as planned (801s) so less maintenance required.
That and the 800s heading up the Cotswold Line can change to diesel there and save some (currently very valuable) diesel by switching later!
Because not electrifying saves a huge pile of money.

Infrastructure is extraordinarily expensive in the current environment.
Is it really that expensive to resurrect electrification schemes that were mothballed, especially when enabling works were often already done by the time of postponement?
I don't see why additional significant electrification would be required to enable the decarbonisation of the Thames Valley branches.
At most they will need short sections of wire in the branch line platforms, connected to the main line electrification.

The procurement process might fail, sure, but that is rather a long shot to justify spend an awful lot of money on additional infrastructure.
I don't think we should necessarily wire most of the shorter branches - but waiting for Churchward to deliver BEMUs sometime in the 2030s for the others is silly.
If you electrify Oxford/Basingstoke then Banbury, you can send a few DMUs west the day it is commissioned.
Not to mention the through services that are reinstated as originally planned, or able to be created.
Remember that if you want BEMUs for your unelectrified branches outside of the GWML itself, you need charging islands on the main line too.
For example - the Cowley branch, East West Rail, a potential Witney branch would all benefit from a charging opportunity on the go on the Cherwell Valley Line. It's not exactly bucolic and super rural between Oxford and Banbury now either, the massive development they're building at the old RAF airfield in Heyford isn't all that far from the eponymous station.
The power siphoning would be so small as to be barely noticeable any time soon.

HS2's power supply system is designed for 18 400m trains per hour per direction running at up to 360kph. Each 400m set can have an installed power of something like 18MW.
A handful of short charging multiple units is background noise next to that.

If at some point HS2 needs all that power then you can upgrade the power supply at that time. Money spent decades from now is cheaper than money spent today.
But if we want railways to be profitable overall and to make best use of our extremely expensive new infrastructure, surely we should encourage using the new infrastructure as much as possible. And that doesn't mean HS2 being close to at capacity in the far future, that means investing in extensions to carry those passengers as soon as possible, while it is cheaper, as you mention.
If you're going to electrify Chiltern, a few islands around the termini, Banbury, and a LU (or even LO using some of LU metals) extension to Aylesbury wouldn't break the bank, and wouldn't rely on a future government to upgrade HS2's power supply.
Youve missed the point. What is the additional maintenance liability of BEMUs over straight EMUs?

For a bonus point, expand your answer to include the net maintenance liability from not electrifying the lines BEMUs would be used on.
We have to keep some Electrostars for HeX use.
Electrostars aren't made any more AFAIK, and there is certainly no BEMU Electrostar variant that I'm aware of.
Therefore, BEMUs have to come from a different manufacturer or, at best, a different product in the same (or successor) manufacturer's line.
So you have to train maintenance staff to fix different trains with different parts and issues based on issues that will be specific to pure EMUs, and specific to BEMUs.

I totally agree that the 165s should be cascaded away and the shorter branches arr perfect for BEMUs, but ordering more than necessary to avoid wiring Oxford/Basingstoke/Banbury would be a waste of money, when GWR already has a fleet capable of such a task, should the investments (which would have many benefits which many TOCs or, in future, divisions of GBR can benefit from).
 

HSTEd

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Is it really that expensive to resurrect electrification schemes that were mothballed, especially when enabling works were often already done by the time of postponement?
Well everything on the railway seems to be expensive these days!

My understanding is that all the steelwork and associated parts are gone. There are some pilings in the ground but as far as I know not much other work was done. Even without having to pay for bridge lifts or anything like that, its going to cost a lot of money.

Additionally, the work was postponed a long time ago now, back in 2016, so we must ask if the bridge clearances were done to the old BR specification or the EU backed one that the ORR imposed? Adjusting work done to the former requirements to the latter ones caused no end of problems on the Edinburgh-Glasgow projects at the time.

I don't think we should necessarily wire most of the shorter branches - but waiting for Churchward to deliver BEMUs sometime in the 2030s for the others is silly.

If you electrify Oxford/Basingstoke then Banbury, you can send a few DMUs west the day it is commissioned.
Even if we had a pile of money to start today, it is probably unlikely that we can deliver much before the 2030s regardless!
These things take time, and I doubt much design work was done for much of the current unelectrified track beyond the Oxford segment where work actually started.
We now have under 40 months until the 2030s commence.

Not to mention the through services that are reinstated as originally planned, or able to be created.
Remember that if you want BEMUs for your unelectrified branches outside of the GWML itself, you need charging islands on the main line too.
For example - the Cowley branch, East West Rail, a potential Witney branch would all benefit from a charging opportunity on the go on the Cherwell Valley Line. It's not exactly bucolic and super rural between Oxford and Banbury now either, the massive development they're building at the old RAF airfield in Heyford isn't all that far from the eponymous station.
The through services could restart once the BEMUs are delivered.
My understanding is that the Cowley Branch is to be operated as part of a through service at Marylebone, so charging infrastructure installed there could possibly support it.

If the East West Rail service ever starts, that can probably be provided with charging services in the vicinity of Aylesbury in the interim.
But if we want railways to be profitable overall and to make best use of our extremely expensive new infrastructure, surely we should encourage using the new infrastructure as much as possible. And that doesn't mean HS2 being close to at capacity in the far future, that means investing in extensions to carry those passengers as soon as possible, while it is cheaper, as you mention.
If you're going to electrify Chiltern, a few islands around the termini, Banbury, and a LU (or even LO using some of LU metals) extension to Aylesbury wouldn't break the bank, and wouldn't rely on a future government to upgrade HS2's power supply.
I would wholeheartedly support running a very intensive London-Birmingham service from the earliest opportunity, however this seems unlikely to happen at this time.
They've also recently reduced the requirement for power on HS2 by eliminating ATO, which drops us from 18 paths to 17.

In any case, if they did want to do that, it would likely still be cheaper to modify the HS2 substation designs for a slightly higher rating (after all, they are still far from complete!) and still use them to support the Chiltern route than to electrify it from scratch.

On the Aylesbury via Amersham line - I would prefer to simply make a case for transferring the line wholesale to London Underground (contracting for operation), removing the pedestrian level crossings and electrifying it with fourth rail in accordance with London Underground's well established risk management practices. ORR has apparently accepted the risk management case that LU made, as they have no live working and no level crossings.

If this is impossible, I think battery with charging on the shared Metropolitan Line section, backed up by charging at Aylesbury, would be my preferred choice.

Unfortunately, we have now returned to the interest rates of the pre 2008 era, so capital has become expensive.
The era of <1% Central Bank rates and cheap borrowing appears to be over.


We have to keep some Electrostars for HeX use.
Electrostars aren't made any more AFAIK, and there is certainly no BEMU Electrostar variant that I'm aware of.
Is there any reason that HeX has to use Electrostars rather than any generic BEMU or EMU that fits in the tunnels?
 
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Bald Rick

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We have to keep some Electrostars for HeX use.
Electrostars aren't made any more AFAIK, and there is certainly no BEMU Electrostar variant that I'm aware of.
Therefore, BEMUs have to come from a different manufacturer or, at best, a different product in the same (or successor) manufacturer's line.
So you have to train maintenance staff to fix different trains with different parts and issues based on issues that will be specific to pure EMUs, and specific to BEMUs.

Thats not answering the question
 

Magdalia

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Is it really that expensive to resurrect electrification schemes that were mothballed, especially when enabling works were often already done by the time of postponement?
It continues to amaze me that, almost 5 years after Russia invaded Ukraine, this still doesn't sink in with so many contributors here.

There are two main factors:

  • cost of construction has gone up much more rapidly than general inflation: part of that is cost of raw materials, things like concrete and steel are very energy intensive to produce, part of it is employment costs, especially the impact of the big minimum wage and National Insurance increases
  • cost of finance has gone up hugely, it now costs the government more than 6% interest per annum to borrow 30 year money: any capital investment project that needs a lot of expenditure up front and takes a long time to deliver benefits has got very very expensive.
 
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Dr Hoo

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Well everything on the railway seems to be expensive these days!

My understanding is that all the steelwork and associated parts are gone. There are some pilings in the ground but as far as I know not much other work was done. Even without having to pay for bridge lifts or anything like that, its going to cost a lot of money.

Additionally, the work was postponed a long time ago now, back in 2016, so we must ask if the bridge clearances were done to the old BR specification or the EU backed one that the ORR imposed? Adjusting work done to the former requirements to the latter ones caused no end of problems on the Edinburgh-Glasgow projects at the time.
Can you explain what you mean about the ORR ‘imposing’ different standards?

As I understand it the Rail Safety & Standards Board issues and updates standards. I am also aware that as part of EU membership the UK adopted various TSIs, Euro norms and so on.

When any new infrastructure is presented for approval by ORR an obvious starter question is whether it complies with current/latest standards. (I am well aware that in particular circumstances derogations may be applied.) It would be rather odd if Network Rail or any other body just shrugged and said “well we don’t like the new standards so we just decided to carry on using the old ones”.
 

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