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What does Working Class mean Today?

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Greenback

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The traditional definition of class has changed, I don't think there can be any doubt about that. It used to be a matter of birth and breeding, now it seems to have moved more towards what klambert says about earning power being the definition.

This means I am definitely working class, despite coming from a good background and a comfortable family who had a pretty good income by the standards of the day, and would have considered themselves well and truly middle class.

But I'd like to pose a question that an acquaintance of mine first asked me many years ago. Why do we have to define ourselves by how much money we earn and what work we do? Why don't we look at what type of people we are, and value the way we behave and interact with others instead?
 
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Oswyntail

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I often wonder as to which "class" were the prime movers in the very short lived Cromwellian Commonwealth that ended with the restoration of the monarchy in 1660.
That is certainly a test case. I believe that the chief problem was that Charles was trying to revert to the traditional Scottish model of kingship which was much closer to the continental model of absolutism and ownership (though slightly different). The coalition that opposed this came from all "classes", opposing this departure from English traditions; the coalition that supported him was also from all classes, again trying to maintain the English tradition of "noblesse oblige". This, IMHO, is why it was not a "revolution" and faded away fairly peacefully - both sides were interchangeable and striving for the same thing!

The traditional definition of class has changed, I don't think there can be any doubt about that. It used to be a matter of birth and breeding, now it seems to have moved more towards what klambert says about earning power being the definition.....
Another approach to the definition of "class" that has been suggested lies in the attitude to children and upbringing. "Middle class" parenting involves treating the child as a potential citizen, albeit needing help, so the parents talk to it, treat it as an individual with all the characteristics an individual has and expresses; the needs of the child are on a par with those of the parents. "Working class" parenting talks less to the child, subjects it more to routine and rigid discipline and trains it to be a part of the proletariat. "Upper class" parenting tended to hand the child on to someone else!
The equation of class with money is, IMHO, simply confused and confusing, as it uses two distinct terms to describe the same factor, wealth. What we have today is some people who show the attitudes and habits of the "yeoman" class, who, in wealth terms, are essentially proletariat, while we have people with "proletariat" attitudes and habits, with the wealth of the "yeomen" and "nobles".
 

12CSVT

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Where does that put Harold Wilson's ex teacher son who became a railway train driver?
A more interesing case would be of Michael Sata, President of Zambia from 2011 until his death last month. Before his political career he was a British Rail cleaner then porter at Victoria station.
 

Butts

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The traditional definition of class has changed, I don't think there can be any doubt about that. It used to be a matter of birth and breeding, now it seems to have moved more towards what klambert says about earning power being the definition.

This means I am definitely working class, despite coming from a good background and a comfortable family who had a pretty good income by the standards of the day, and would have considered themselves well and truly middle class.

But I'd like to pose a question that an acquaintance of mine first asked me many years ago. Why do we have to define ourselves by how much money we earn and what work we do? Why don't we look at what type of people we are, and value the way we behave and interact with others instead?

I repeat my earlier comment - does this make Wayne Rooney Upper Class ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A more interesing case would be of Michael Sata, President of Zambia from 2011 until his death last month. Before his political career he was a British Rail cleaner then porter at Victoria station.

No wonder Northern Rhodesia crumbled.....:p
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I repeat my earlier comment - does this make Wayne Rooney Upper Class ?

Not in a million years will I accept that this person could be described as "Upper Class" as it is only normally where a great upheaval in a country has ensued when certain personages (usually political) rise to the top power level status that this terminology is then self-applied, examples being Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and the like.

I have a personal axe to grind regarding Wayne Rooney as he is a prime example of a personage who is felt to lower the tone of our village. A crown can be placed on the head of a peasant, but underneath, a peasant still remains. No wonder that Rooney is often thought of as the basis of the cartoon character called "Shrek"
 

Butts

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I cannot believe that you did read what I said about him in the posting immediately prior to the one that you made...:roll:

Indeed I live in the very rural border area of Prestbury that abuts Mottram St Andrew.

Come on Paul own up....we all know you live in a "Two Up Two Down" in Salford :p
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Salford, Luxury, more like Harpurhey!

I am amazed to find that Harpurhey is known in St Albans...:D

Cheshire East Council most probably receives more in Community Charge from me than Manchester City Council receives from the whole of Harpurhey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come on Paul own up....we all know you live in a "Two Up Two Down" in Salford :p

There are areas to the north of central Manchester known to me such as Angel Meadow, Ancoats, Miles Platting and Collyhurst which have much in the way of social history which make for good historical reading.

I am pleased to see that Salford receives a mention from you as the former Dockland areas there are now part of the ubiquitous Salford Quays/Media City area of area invigoration.

I will have to be careful not to allow this to turn into a "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch...:D
 
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Aldaniti

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I tend to categorise people on how they behave and how they treat others and the environment in general. There are some wealthy people in this country, from a privileged background, who I would cross the road to avoid, whilst there are some outwardly facing rough and hard people who are the salt of the earth. It works both ways and both background and money rarely has anything to do with whether an individual is what I would call a 'proper' person. I tend to warm to people who have an average life, an average job, treat others with respect, don't brag or boast about their job/career, qualifications or material possessions, and just get on with life, so I'm afraid the class system means absolutely nothing to me. In my eyes, the person volunteering their time at the local charity shop, whilst working in a minimum wage job, forms part of the real 'Upper Class' in this country.

And no, Wayne Rooney is most certainly not Upper Class!
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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And no, Wayne Rooney is most certainly not Upper Class!

If one could draw a thoughtful railway comparison to the old adage of "living above your station", up to quite recent times I would have had no hesitation whatsoever to putting forward Wakefield Kirkgate as the station that Wayne Rooney would be best suited to be "living above"....:D
 

Butts

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If one could draw a thoughtful railway comparison to the old adage of "living above your station", up to quite recent times I would have had no hesitation whatsoever to putting forward Wakefield Kirkgate as the station that Wayne Rooney would be best suited to be "living above"....:D

Has the station got any Gargoyles ? - WR would be a prime candidate for adorning the building in such a capacity :p
 

Springs Branch

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Interesting thread. The various posts seem to have concluded that the Working Class, Middle Class, .... concepts are still valid in some guise, but it's difficult to specify exactly what characteristics define them.

Those aspects of society that don't fall into clear black/white categories (i.e. always exist in some shade of grey), I've always found are best interpreted by Bell Curves or overlying families of Bell Curves. A general example for the "Working Class" question is shown below.

BellCurve1.png


The horizontal X-axis shows some numerical or semi-quantitative attribute, like "Places high value on a University Education", which could appear on the scale as Zero, Low, Medium, High, Very High, or as a number scale if you can properly quantify it (e.g. number of cigarettes smoked per day).
The vertical Y-axis is always the fraction or percentage of the people within that group with that belief or attribute.

For this particular subject, the X-axis attributes could be:-
1) Places high value on a University Education.
2) Supports significant cuts to the Welfare system.
3) Number of cigarettes smoked per day.
4) Degree of support for continuation of the Monarchy beyond Elizabeth II.
5) How willing to try unfamilar foreign food?
you can easily think of many more which might define Working Class etc.

Obviously the image above shows some random, unspecific example.
The position and shape of each curve can shift about without restriction, depending on what attribute you're looking at and you could compare families of curves for different attributes, one under the other on the same page.

The interesting thing is not so much precise numbers as the visual patterns:
- Relative position of the maximum peaks (most frequent value) of the different curves.
- The width or spread of the curves - is it very sharp, or is there a large or small proportion of people with extreme opinions, or personal wealth or BMI, or whatever? This is where the Working Class curve for Personal Wealth has a very long, skinny tail due to the small number of entertainers (including footballers) who've acquired high personal wealth.
- Relative overlaps of the different curves. And do some curves overlap at all?

It's also interesting to look at changes to families of curves over a period of time.
If you could look at the "Willing to Try Foreign Food" curves from the 1960s, they'll be very different to 2014 for all the classes.


Beyond the topical "Working Class" question, you can extend it to the international sphere. For example "all Americans are fat".
If you overlayed bell curves for Body Mass Index of the US, UK and Japanese populations (for example), you would probably find the mean is a bit higher for the US, the spread of the US curve is very broad (there are many obese Americans, but also a large proportion who take their personal image very seriously and stay in shape) and the Japanese curve may be narrow and sharp relative to US and UK.

You can do the same thing with any other favourite national / ethnic characterisation like:
1) Germans are hardworking and efficient.
2) Italians dress very well.
3) Muslims support Islamic terrorism.
4) Australians are obsessed by sport.

From any group, you can always cherry-pick an example or two to confirm or disprove whatever message or prejudice you have, but it takes a properly-constructed Bell Curve (and better still a family of Bell Curves) to cut through the Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.
 
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yorksrob

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I think the main class distinctions today are between an Establishment class, a large working/professional class without the money or connections to be bought into the Establishment class by way of unpaid internships, public school etc, but are skilled enough to get by relatively comfortably most of the time, but for whom life is increasingly precarious in terms of employment conditions and housing costs etc, and an unskilled class who have effectively been forced into casual labour and are increasingly surviving on the breadline in spite of working.

A very unfortunate situation which only seems to be getting worse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would also includes in the Establishment class those who have some overwhelming talent that they can name their price for, for example, higher end sports people, mathematical genii who become city analysts etc. These are in a different league in terms of financial security from the majority working/professional class.
 
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12CSVT

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There are some wealthy people in this country, from a privileged background, who I would cross the road to avoid

At the present time, names such as Kenneth Clark and Andrew Mitchell spring to mind.
 

St Rollox

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A more interesing case would be of Michael Sata, President of Zambia from 2011 until his death last month. Before his political career he was a British Rail cleaner then porter at Victoria station.

Isn't there a Yorkshire saying that goes something like "rags to riches and back again in three generations".
 
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