What does Working Class mean Today?

[Butts]

This term is often bandied about but what does it actually mean today - if anything ?

Is it Education, Profession, Salary, Upbringing or conditioning or a mixture of all or any of these ?

Is a Security Guard on Minimum Wage the same class as a Train driver earning £50k per year ? - ie Working Class.

Is Britain now a classless society - are we all "Middle Class Now"

 

[Greenback]

No, not classless - the elite, the middle and the underclass.

 

[yorkie]

How do you define "class"?

 

[Butts]

How do you define "class"?

That's exactly what I was trying to ascertain with my OP !!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, not classless - the elite, the middle and the underclass.

Wot no Working Class

 

[Manchester77]

The working classes are those who are employed to create wealth for another member of society to benefit from. Generally the working classes are on incomes that are lower than the value of their labour.

The workers of Britain are middle class, but they're at the bottom of the class structure so they are the working class still. While it's clear the true working classes are the workers on under £1 an hour in developing nations you cannot ignore the fact that profit and wealth extraction from society through the employment of the workers is common place across the globalised, capitalist world.

Britain is definatly not classless, the simple ONS figure that the richest 1% own as much as the poorest 55% surely shows that if anything the classes of society have adapted and divided us more since the 1980s.

 

[Butts]

The working classes are those who are employed to create wealth for another member of society to benefit from. Generally the working classes are on incomes that are lower than the value of their labour.

The workers of Britain are middle class, but they're at the bottom of the class structure so they are the working class still. While it's clear the true working classes are the workers on under £1 an hour in developing nations you cannot ignore the fact that profit and wealth extraction from society through the employment of the workers is common place across the globalised, capitalist world.

Britain is definatly not classless, the simple ONS figure that the richest 1% own as much as the poorest 55% surely shows that if anything the classes of society have adapted and divided us more since the 1980s.

So if you have a University Educated Teacher earning less than a relatively uneducated Train Driver which class does each fall into ?

 

[St Rollox]

Best to ask the Labour Party.
Most of the leadership couldn't move quick enough to drop the whole concept.
Probably why they've lost 5 million votes since 1997.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The terminology suggested by the phrase "working class" is today an outdated and outmoded measure of society. It may well have had its roots in the period when this was more relevant and still is used in 2014 by those left-leaning politicians who hark back to that period in order to foster certain political debates.

The decline of the British once strong areas of employment in manufacturing, shipbuilding and mining, just to use three examples, are situations where a vast number of people once were employed.

 

[St Rollox]

The terminology suggested by the phrase "working class" is today an outdated and outmoded measure of society. It may well have had its roots in the period when this was more relevant and still is used in 2014 by those left-leaning politicians who hark back to that period in order to foster certain political debates.

The decline of the British once strong areas of employment in manufacturing, shipbuilding and mining, just to use three examples, are situations where a vast number of people once were employed.

At least leave us old dinosaurs our dreams.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The working classes are those who are employed to create wealth for another member of society to benefit from. Generally the working classes are on incomes that are lower than the value of their labour.

The workers of Britain are middle class, but they're at the bottom of the class structure so they are the working class still. While it's clear the true working classes are the workers on under £1 an hour in developing nations you cannot ignore the fact that profit and wealth extraction from society through the employment of the workers is common place across the globalised, capitalist world.

To hark back to your forum signature, events that have come to light in recent times in Britain have shown that the Slave Owners are still a class in Britain who are still with us, be it those held captive in the homes of those from the Indian sub-continent or in the "companies" run by so-called "travellers"

Perhaps the Pol Pot regime was the main example in modern times where a fundamentalist Communist regime used its people as slaves. Slavery is not the exclusive tool of the capitalist world, but there are those left-leaning members of society who appear to be afflicted by selective amnesia at times when it is suggested that Communist states are also party to such matters.

 

[12CSVT]

I suppose it's all about knowing your place in the class structure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfiFTEaz_0U

 

[St Rollox]

I wouldn't wish anybody to go back to working in heavy industry.
Been down a coal mine, shipyard and an major steel works.
Not for the faint hearted.

 

[455driver]

So if you have a University Educated Teacher earning less than a relatively uneducated Train Driver which class does each fall into ?

Well that didn't take long!:roll:

 

[GatwickDepress]

So if you have a University Educated Teacher earning less than a relatively uneducated Train Driver which class does each fall into ?

From what I remember from some ancient lecture on social mobility, the source of one's money can matter far more (in class terms) than the amount; so a solicitor is considered more "upper class" than a city trader despite earning less on average.

 

[Butts]

Well that didn't take long!:roll:

Nothing personal old bean

I just wondered whether people are born into their class and whether it can change.

For example if someone starts off on a sink estate and becomes a Solicitor in later life does that alter their Class Status.

Conversely someone from a relatively affluent background begins as Middle Class then becomes "Downwardly Mobile" and ends up as a Security Guard does that alter their Class Status.

What's it all about Alfie.........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't wish anybody to go back to working in heavy industry.
Been down a coal mine, shipyard and an major steel works.
Not for the faint hearted.

Would the youth of today be able to "hack it" without constant access to their I Phones
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose it's all about knowing your place in the class structure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfiFTEaz_0U

Was like easier when there was a natural "pecking order"

 

[Manchester77]

So if you have a University Educated Teacher earning less than a relatively uneducated Train Driver which class does each fall into ?

Well I'd say both working class because they're both creating value from their labour and as I said one was not receiving an income which is representative of the value of their labour. And surely the fact the train driver is paid more is more of a demonstration of the merit that unions brings to an industry?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps the Pol Pot regime was the main example in modern times where a fundamentalist Communist regime used its people as slaves. Slavery is not the exclusive tool of the capitalist world, but there are those left-leaning members of society who appear to be afflicted by selective amnesia at times when it is suggested that Communist states are also party to such matters.

The pol pot regim was fundementally flawed from the start; how anyone could think that transferring everyone to work in the fields iwas a good idea is beyond me. I don't think your comments are exactly called for; had we retained the level of nationalised assets now we would be classed as a left leaning state with a better level of wealth equality. I'm hardly someone who is going to deny the the communist regim in many states has been bad for the peoples human rights. Just remember that for everyone starved in the failings of statins five year plan there are people dying now because they're used in unsafe factories to produce consumer goods. It's not a problem that can be pinned on the left or the right - it's something both sides of the spectrum need to tackle

 

[telstarbox]

There are clearly still different social groups in Britain but it's not a s simple as working/middle/upper class any more - perhaps now cultural class is more significant than economic class. Working conditions are now less secure for many people, not just poorer workers, with the decline of trade unionism, pay freezes, more self-employment and the rise of zero-hours contracts.

Traditionally working class people voted Labour and the middle and upper classes Conservative - this has changed too with the Conservative appeal to "Essex Man", New Labour broadening their voter base under Blair, and UKIP taking votes from both parties.

For example, there is a large cohort of people in their 20s who have been to University (a solid or upper middle class indicator) but are working in low-paid jobs in coffee shops or call centres (working class jobs) so which class would these people be?

The BBC came up with a set of seven classes last year.

"Watching The English" by sociologist Kate Fox is a good and accessible read on this topic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm hardly someone who is going to deny the the communist regim in many states has been bad for the peoples human rights. Just remember that for everyone starved in the failings of statins five year plan there are people dying now because they're used in unsafe factories to produce consumer goods. It's not a problem that can be pinned on the left or the right - it's something both sides of the spectrum need to tackle

One modern example of post WWII in Europe was East Germany and its notorious Stasi. People were encouraged to spy on family members, friends and local neighbours. With regard to some of the communist state industrial sites, as you pointed out, it is indeed frightening to behold these sites that are left.

I think that your meant to say Stalin where I have emboldened that part of your posting above. as a five year plan of statins can be quite good medically-speaking....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think your comments are exactly called for; had we retained the level of nationalised assets now we would be classed as a left leaning state with a better level of wealth equality.

Your views above seemed not to be shared by the "Blair/Brown" led New Labour Government when their power based was secured...

On a more jovial note, I spent part of this afternoon watching the dvd of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" and the very early sequence where King Arthur discusses matters with the serfs of his divine right to rule and the wonderful scripted responses of the serfs about their "anarchic autonomous collective" seemed to make me think of your good self as the scriptwriter of their responses...

 

[underbank]

I don't think class is relevant anymore.

You can't define class by wealth or income, because some of the "trades" and historical "manual workers" earn more than the professions these days, such as gas-safe plumbers, train drivers, oil-rig workers, etc.

You can't define by uni/degrees either seeing as so many people now go to university, and a degree isn't as unique or special as it once was - many people with degrees have low-grade jobs, many come from poorer backgrounds, etc. A degree doesn't make you "middle class".

Go back a century or so ago, people stayed in the class they were born into, but these days, there's so much flexibility and social mobility that the class distinctions are now well and truly blurred.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Go back a century or so ago, people stayed in the class they were born into, but these days, there's so much flexibility and social mobility that the class distinctions are now well and truly blurred.

Indeed you make a good point here. Howsoever, there are those who still wish to perpetuate the "working class" ethos in order that they can expound their views based upon a matter long gone.

 

[Iskra]

Indeed you make a good point here. Howsoever, there are those who still wish to perpetuate the "working class" ethos in order that they can expound their views based upon a matter long gone.

To me there is a working class. But, it's not like it used to be;

The rich
The comfortable
The working class
The underclass (ie those who don't work and instead choose to live off the state)

...is how I'd put it.

 

[Manchester77]

Your views above seemed not to be shared by the "Blair/Brown" led New Labour Government when their power based was secured...

I did of course mean Stalin!

Well thatcher described her biggest achievement as new labour so it's hardly surprising! He basically threw everything labour stood for our and they became the moderate conservative party. I think it's best portrayed in spitting image n the sketch with his portrait!

 

[chorleyjeff]

Well that didn't take long!:roll:

Where does that put Harold Wilson's ex teacher son who became a railway train driver?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed you make a good point here. Howsoever, there are those who still wish to perpetuate the "working class" ethos in order that they can expound their views based upon a matter long gone.

It seems you are on the way to becoming "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" occupying the corner seat by the bar in the nineteenth hole. If so we could look forward to some lively jousting )

 

[43021HST]

I still believe the class system lives as strong as ever. Just because the types of jobs have changed doesn't mean the class system has. Where there was Ship Builders, Factory workers and Miners, we now have Supermarket staff, Call Centre staff and Cleaners.

I believe it's how much you earn that separates the classes.

 

[chorleyjeff]

To me there is a working class. But, it's not like it used to be;

The rich
The comfortable
The working class
The underclass (ie those who don't work and instead choose to live off the state)

...is how I'd put it.

No.
Not nearly so nuanced as our archaic class system which is alive and well. There seem to be almost infinite variations within the middle classes based on a huge range of factors. I have had lots of fun observing people, including me, negotiating the shifting sands of class distinctions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I still believe the class system lives as strong as ever. Just because the types of jobs have changed doesn't mean the class system has. Where there was Ship Builders, Factory workers and Miners, we now have Supermarket staff, Call Centre staff and Cleaners.

I believe it's how much you earn that separates the classes.

The folk on top do not earn. They simply have lots of money mostly not earned.
And the people at the bottom do not earn money They just get it for doing nothing.

 

[Butts]

I still believe the class system lives as strong as ever. Just because the types of jobs have changed doesn't mean the class system has. Where there was Ship Builders, Factory workers and Miners, we now have Supermarket staff, Call Centre staff and Cleaners.

I believe it's how much you earn that separates the classes.

That must make Wayne Rooney Upper Class then

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That must make Wayne Rooney Upper Class then

Can you imagine Wayne Rooney in the TV series "Downton Abbey"....I wonder what part he would be thought most suitable to play...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems you are on the way to becoming "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" occupying the corner seat by the bar in the nineteenth hole. If so we could look forward to some lively jousting )

Strange that you should mention this, as it was only very recently that in a posting that I denied any association to "Offended of Orpington"...

 

[cambsy]

Wayne Rooney would have been general labour etc in Downton Abbey period of history, if he had the brain to do that , he is not exactly the sharpest tool in the box.

 

[Oswyntail]

The working classes are those who are employed to create wealth for another member of society to benefit from.....

So anyone in employment is "working class"?
The problem is that the whole concept of "class" in Britain has been misunderstood for centuries, back to Magna Carta. It is not about income, and never has been. Rather it is more about the obligations and benefits one received. The "Upper Classes" owned the title to land, and could call upon their tenants to pay taxes and provide military service, but had the obligation to look after the interests of those tenants by maintaining the law and assisting them in times of difficulty. The "Middle Classes" - the yeomen - held property, smallholdings, and were obliged to pay the Lord for the use of the land, and provide military service. They employed workers, and were under the obligation to maintain their interests. The workers, a true "proletariat" who had no property other than their families, supplied labour and military manpower, in return for wages and protection. Movement between these strata was always possible in each direction, generally one way through education, te other through moral degradation. Generally this worked well until the industrial revolution and the urbanisation of the proletariat, when the ties with the land and the economic structure were severed. The working relationship was now based purely on payment with no reciprocal obligation (except when people tried to replicate the old system, such as in Saltaire).
This was totally different from the continental system, where the "nobles" were considered to own those beneath them in the pyramid. The various revolutions, and Marxism, all started from rejecting this premise. IMHO, this explains why a) there has never been such a workers revolution in this country, as the social structure was much more nuanced and b) why "class" is so misunderstood by those outside Britain looking in.
What we have lost since the early 1800s is much of the sense of obligations and duties, as we become more based on Money as a measure of worth in society. If "noblesse oblige" is brought up at all, it is there simply to be mocked; but it is the basis of much of our way of life, and could do with being brought back.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The various revolutions, and Marxism, all started from rejecting this premise. IMHO, this explains why a) there has never been such a workers revolution in this country, as the social structure was much more nuanced and b) why "class" is so misunderstood by those outside Britain looking in.

I often wonder as to which "class" were the prime movers in the very short lived Cromwellian Commonwealth that ended with the restoration of the monarchy in 1660.