What are the small lights next to headlights for?

[Tom williams]

So I've noticed on all trains on the headlights there's a normal white headlight but there's also a small line one next to it and I'm not sure what it's for if anyone could help me that would be great, I have also supplied a photo

 

[J@ke]

I believe they’re marker lights

 

[TheEdge]

They are indeed marker lights. They are just a smaller dimmer light that is used as well as the headlight on the front. There are some cases where a train will only use its marker lights (in depots, certain rescue situations).

The exact purpose for them, especially now, I've never really understood.

 

[Cowley]

They are indeed marker lights. They are just a smaller dimmer light that is used as well as the headlight on the front. There are some cases where a train will only use its marker lights (in depots, certain rescue situations).

The exact purpose for them, especially now, I've never really understood.

I’ve always wondered about them too. They look a bit like sidelights on a 1990s bus.

 

[TRAX]

There aren’t any on the latest British trains now.

 

[Darandio]

There aren’t any on the latest British trains now.

No marker lights? Which trains?

 

[43096]

There aren’t any on the latest British trains now.

Really?
Class 802: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steam...3Di-b5pS9n-meNQXJ-9tZ3n2-jhnWVz-gWDS54-hEbo7n
Class 385: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alexa...MofVSh-2atonjA-26GsG5y-2bMTFUt-279cVSj-MjEj3s

 

[GW43125]

There aren’t any on the latest British trains now.

What may be confusing you is a lot of trains have the tail and marker lights incorporated into one bank of LEDs, as seen on the images posted by 43096.

 

[TRAX]

Now why did I think I saw that... Sorry I got confused in my memories.

GW43125, in these pictures they aren’t grouped together, but it’s not this that confused me anyway.

 

[driver_m]

Marker lights are used on depots for moves within the confines. You also need them If sat against buffers with white markers .The requirement is to replicate what light is on the buffers . (One of these, south of Stoke on Trent station)

 

[TRAX]

Why did SWT and do SWR stable trains at Clapham with both (four) red and white markers ?

 

[Val3ntine]

Why did SWT and do SWR stable trains at Clapham with both (four) red and white markers ?

Depot drivers tend to leave the marker lights on as the train will be taken over shortly by a mainline driver anyway which will need markers in it’s onward movement. I believe this is just courtesy from the depot drivers. The reason red tail lights also show is because this is the default mode when the key is removed. This will be unique to only class 444/450 stock. All other stock will either have reds or whites showing.

 

[Bigfoot]

Depot drivers tend to leave the marker lights on as the train will be taken over shortly by a mainline driver anyway which will need markers in it’s onward movement. I believe this is just courtesy from the depot drivers. The reason red tail lights also show is because this is the default mode when the key is removed. This will be unique to only class 444/450 stock. All other stock will either have reds or whites showing.

It is how the depot staff communicate with each other as to which units are prepared for service. Not courtesy to the next driver.

 

[Val3ntine]

It is how the depot staff communicate with each other as to which units are prepared for service. Not courtesy to the next driver.

Ohhhh right that makes sense. Cheers for clearing that up

 

[TRAX]

Thanks for that

 

[E_Reeves]

No marker lights? Which trains?

68/88, although I believe the ability is still there but they're not used in general working

 

[TRAX]

It also appears that 717s only use their smaller headlights in the tunnel, only using their main beam outside.
And 700s run with just the main beam working, with the outside marker lights clearly off - as I just saw on a 700 two minutes ago at Westcombe Park.
So, no, I didn’t dream.

 

[AndrewE]

When BR was moving on from only having two dim white marker lights just above the buffer beam it was realised that the triangle of lights (with one at the top centre) commonly used on the continent was far better for allowing an observer to judge the distance and approach speed of a train. Then a high-power forward-pointing light was introduced (which was supposed to be at low level and angled down so that it could not dazzle people it was approaching)... but was often in a box above the buffer-beam combined with the white and red marker lights. Both the pictures linked above seem to have kept the triangle pattern with some brighter lights as well though.

 

[Ken H]

When BR was moving on from only having two dim white marker lights just above the buffer beam it was realised that the triangle of lights (with one at the top centre) commonly used on the continent was far better for allowing an observer to judge the distance and approach speed of a train. Then a high-power forward-pointing light was introduced (which was supposed to be at low level and angled down so that it could not dazzle people it was approaching)... but was often in a box above the buffer-beam combined with the white and red marker lights. Both the pictures linked above seem to have kept the triangle pattern with some brighter lights as well though.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the 3 lights configuration was so train lights were not confused with road vehicle lights? Maybe for when road and rail are side by side.

 

[AndrewE]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the 3 lights configuration was so train lights were not confused with road vehicle lights? Maybe for when road and rail are side by side.

That might be a benefit, but I am remembering coffee-break conversations with the man working beside me who was doing the research and drawing up the specifications.

 

[43096]

When BR was moving on from only having two dim white marker lights just above the buffer beam it was realised that the triangle of lights (with one at the top centre) commonly used on the continent was far better for allowing an observer to judge the distance and approach speed of a train. Then a high-power forward-pointing light was introduced (which was supposed to be at low level and angled down so that it could not dazzle people it was approaching)... but was often in a box above the buffer-beam combined with the white and red marker lights. Both the pictures linked above seem to have kept the triangle pattern with some brighter lights as well though.

BR never went for the triangle of lights, other than on Class 92 (tunnel requirement). I would think Classes 66, 168 and 332 were the first for domestic use.

 

[E_Reeves]

BR never went for the triangle of lights, other than on Class 92 (tunnel requirement). I would think Classes 66, 168 and 332 were the first for domestic use.

92s these days rarely use the upper marker light, although I saw one the other day with it illuminated which I picked up on quite quickly.

 

[simple simon]

BR never went for the triangle of lights, other than on Class 92 (tunnel requirement). I would think Classes 66, 168 and 332 were the first for domestic use.

Some years ago I saw a Class 315 like this. Stratford station, eastbound, at night!

 

[MrPIC]

Yeah there's a few 315's running around which were modded a few years ago by Bombardier to have electrostar style headlights and markers, among a few other mods. In the end I think only a small handful were done due to cost. 317/7 units were also fitted with a top marker.

 

[AndrewE]

BR never went for the triangle of lights, other than on Class 92 (tunnel requirement). I would think Classes 66, 168 and 332 were the first for domestic use.

How long before a loco appears in traffic do you think work starts on the design standards? I don't mean the loco design, or even the publication of the agreed standard, but the research and then the preliminary draughting? "BR" most certainly was working on it.

 

[edwin_m]

When BR was moving on from only having two dim white marker lights just above the buffer beam it was realised that the triangle of lights (with one at the top centre) commonly used on the continent was far better for allowing an observer to judge the distance and approach speed of a train. Then a high-power forward-pointing light was introduced (which was supposed to be at low level and angled down so that it could not dazzle people it was approaching)... but was often in a box above the buffer-beam combined with the white and red marker lights. Both the pictures linked above seem to have kept the triangle pattern with some brighter lights as well though.

There were more stages than that.

If I recall correctly the first high intensity lights appeared in the 1970s and all classes were fitted by around 1990, including retrofitting of older stock. This increased visibility for track workers and allowed the use of retro-reflective lineside signs. All the lights were approximately in a row horizontally, with the headlight close to one of the markers or centrally depending on class. Classes 92 and 373 also had a top light to comply with European regulations for working through the Tunnel (and I guess also HS1) but didn't have to use it on the British classic network.

The next change was adoption of the triangle of lights, which were fitted from to all post-privatisation stock but not generally retrofitted. There are two headlights in the bottom corners, one for day use and one for night use, but only one is illuminated at a time. The marker near the headlight may or may not be illuminated. Later the marker and tail lights became LEDs and were often combined in a single lens, with many trains having the older light clusters upgraded, but this didn't change the patterns of lights displayed. I think the spec for the headlights was upgraded in about 2000, resulting in the much brighter versions on more recent stock. Later Electrostars also have a light close to track level but I believe this is to do with forward-facing CCTV and not a mandatory fitment.

 

[ComUtoR]

And 700s run with just the main beam working, with the outside marker lights clearly off - as I just saw on a 700 two minutes ago at Westcombe Park.
So, no, I didn’t dream.

700s have a different style light configuration but they still have Marker lights.

One of the reasons why you see Headlight+Marker in normal service is so that the oncoming Driver isn't blinded/dazzled by your lights. The signs are also retro-reflective so when you switch to night running the Night Headlight is both away from the oncoming Driver and lights up the line-side signage. Its also a little bit of a safety feature as if your day headlight fails, you can switch over to nights and vice versa. With a 700 you still have a day/night style configuration but its full/half (dipped) beam.

With the change to yellow ends the lights need to be much brighter and meet a higher standard of illumination. 700s are certainly the brightest I've driven with and when I went from 319 to 700 it was a monumental difference.

 

[TRAX]

Understood, but the 700s seem to be running without the markers and with both headlights though, from what I’ve seen several times.

 

[ComUtoR]

Understood, but the 700s seem to be running without the markers and with both headlights though, from what I’ve seen several times.

That's correct. Because they don't use the traditional Headlight+Marker setup. Instead they use a Full/Dipped configuration and Markers when required.

 

[TimboM]

92s these days rarely use the upper marker light, although I saw one the other day with it illuminated which I picked up on quite quickly.

They're used quite a lot - depends on the driver and as they're separately switched to the other (head)lights it does involve the driver actively turning them on in addition to the other lights, but at night and in low visibility it'll be on more often than not.