What are southeastern's contract obligations for checking 1st class tickets?

[Tetchytyke]

Are we seriously questioning whether a first class ticket holder can travel in standard class accommodation?

I don't know why people would force their way into a crowded first class compartment, but I can understand why they'd want to be near it. On DOO trains you can bet your bottom dollar a fair few of the people in there in seats will not have first class tickets. I can understand why someone would be waiting patiently for them to be turfed out.

 

[Deerfold]

I've travelled in Standard with a First Class ticket (as the service was delayed, my wife who had a (more expensive) STD ticket managed to make it which I had not expected would happen).

The Guard kindly mentioned to me that my ticket was valid in First and I explained that I'd like to sit with my wife. No problem (though I did pop into First Class briefly and request a free drink from the trolley).

 

[talltim]

Logic failure alert!

You are assuming either that none of those 72 seats are currently occupied or that they are currently occupied and that those doing so will no longer travel by train in the event that 1st class is abolished!

The reality is that in peak time most, if not all, of those seats will be occupied, the majority by 1st class ticket holders. In the event that 1st class is abolished those individuals will most likely continue travelling by train but just pay less.

Logic failure alert!

How could 72 extra seats be already filled? They are extra!*

*Note, I don't know these figures are right, they were what was mentioned earlier. 24 seats per unit seems a bit high to me, for the amount of extra seats you could fit with second class seating arrangements vs first.

 

[Wolfie]

Logic failure alert!

How could 72 extra seats be already filled? They are extra!*

*Note, I don't know these figures are right, they were what was mentioned earlier. 24 seats per unit seems a bit high to me, for the amount of extra seats you could fit with second class seating arrangements vs first.

They are not extra seats, they are those seats currently designated as 1st class that would be rebranded as Std!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To clarify we are talking here about 1st class in the London commuter TOCs where most if not all of the 1st class seats are identical (in some cases even the moquette) to those in Std (including in spacing) and people buy 1st class tockets just to get a seat.

What would be extra is the floor space in 1st class which would become availabel to std class standees!

 

[bb21]

In addition to what hairyhandedfool said, there is no provision in the NRCoC in respect of applicable penalties when passengers travelling in Standard with a First ticket, nor in the Railway Byelaws, nor in the RoRA... So even if the passenger is travelling in the incorrect accommodation, there is no sanction.

I can't quite believe that we are arguing over something like this.

 

[Oswyntail]

I would still be interested in the wider question from the OP, before he mentioned 1st Class. What, if any, are the contractual obligations on the service provider?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The examples you've used have been from situations where First is not available, which isn't the case in the example given earlier. That was the case of people cramming themselves into First when there was space in Std.

Now it's likely that these people are just snobs, but it may (coincidentally) be that they're not allowed to travel there anyway....

The question asked was "is a first class ticket valid in standard?". If it is valid in standard because there is no first class, then it follows that it is when there is first class also.

....As for train companies alienating passengers - why would they worry about that? They're not struggling for passenger numebrs, and they have a largely captive market, so the satisfation of the travellers is largely irrelevant. It's a shame for the front line staff who have to deal with the fall out, but there you go...

It's not a case of them worrying about alienating the passenger, but actually going out of their way to do so.

 

[Tibbs]

The question asked was "is a first class ticket valid in standard?". If it is valid in standard because there is no first class, then it follows that it is when there is first class also.

Why? What if the ticket is valid in standard only because there's no first? They felt the need to cover that eventuality in the rules, so by that logic, if there is a first class section, you should be in there.

It's not a case of them worrying about alienating the passenger, but actually going out of their way to do so.

Yes.

 

[transmanche]

I would still be interested in the wider question from the OP, before he mentioned 1st Class. What, if any, are the contractual obligations on the service provider?

As regards the contract with the passenger? None. There's no obligation on the TOC to inspect tickets.

Of course the TOC may have contractual obligations with other parties; such as part of the franchise agreement, a PTE, or other funding body.

 

[GodAtum]

As I'm sure many people on here are aware Ive made posts similar to this in the past I know a lot of people will disagree with my views and think I an snobbish.

I travel on Southern, SWT, FCC and FGW 1st class frequently and always complain about the lack of ticket checks. If you see my previous posts Ive had a number of issues.

An example from last week: was sitting on the isle seat, ticket check, guy sitting on the window seat did not have a 1st class ticket. I was using the table so was loathed to move to let him out. I told him if he didnt pay why should I stand for you.

I really hope they dont get rid of 1st as it's needed for people like myself to get a seat. As the OP mentioned it's relatively easy to tell who is sitting in 1st class without the correct ticket.

If this is like the First Class on my local route into Paddington, it's a complete waste of money to buy a First Class ticket. Firstly as the trains are Driver Only there is never anyone to check who is sitting where. Secondly the trains are so busy that people will sit anywhere they can regardless whether it is a First or Standard seat or luggage rack!

Lol you will hate me then I always buy 1st on the 166 trains.

 

[Starmill]

Of all the things we could be arguing about, it is is a First Class ticket valid in Standard Class accommodation! :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why? What if the ticket is valid in standard only because there's no first? They felt the need to cover that eventuality in the rules, so by that logic, if there is a first class section, you should be in there....

So what you are saying is that the use of first class accommodation (where provided) *might* be required if you hold a first class ticket?

Last I heard, first class accommodation (where provided) was available for use by first class ticket holders....

 

[Starmill]

Please! 100% inconsequential!

 

[paulravuslante]

Lol you will hate me then I always buy 1st on the 166 trains.

I'll see you in there sometime then.....

 

[jon0844]

Of all the things we could be arguing about, it is is a First Class ticket valid in Standard Class accommodation! :roll:

This thread has become quite amusing. Why would anyone think a first class ticket holder couldn't sit in standard?

Why would there ever need to be such a rule and how would you ever enforce it? Demand the difference is paid between the cost of the first class ticket and standard? Namely, money paid back to the passenger!

It's especially funny given the fact I can't imagine such an incident happening often enough for it to be a problem, bar the already mentioned desire to sit with someone who only had a standard ticket.

I've also travelled standard in Sweden with a first class ticket. We boarded, with luggage, on a train that turned out to be in reverse formation so first was at the other end of the long train. Walking through with bags wasn't an option so we stayed put. We were only on the train for 20 minutes, if that.

Tickets were checked and we weren't told off, funnily enough. No doubt the lady thought us rather stupid though.

Oh, and my parents were told by an RPI that they could sit in first as they'd bought first class tickets, purchased by mistake as they'd read First as being for First Capital Connect on the ticket machine! They weren't chucked off either, unsurprisingly.

 

[Deano]

As regards the contract with the passenger? None. There's no obligation on the TOC to inspect tickets.

Of course the TOC may have contractual obligations with other parties; such as part of the franchise agreement, a PTE, or other funding body.

Where is your source of information? This is what I read..."When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use." It goes on "a ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each TOC who's trains you have the right to use..."

And for the record 1st class tickets are permitted in STD class. Condition 38 NRCoC.

 

[bb21]

Condition 38 NRCoC.

I don't think Condition 38 covers what is being debated here.

Although I agree that it is a bit pointless debating this.

 

[transmanche]

As regards the contract with the passenger? None. There's no obligation on the TOC to inspect tickets.

Where is your source of information?

Er, the same NRCoCs that you quoted - there's nothing in them that obligates the TOC to inspect any ticket. There is an obligation on the passenger to present a ticket for inspection when requested, but there's no contractual obligation in the contract between the passeneger and the TOC requiring them to inspect tickets.

Of course the TOC may have contractual obligations with other parties; such as part of the franchise agreement, a PTE, or other funding body.

The TOC may have a contract with a third party which obligates them to inspect tickets according to a specific regime; e.g. (and this is a made-up example) Transport Scotland may require the franchisee to employ ticket examiners on a certain proportion of services. But that's nothing to do with the contract between the TOC and the passenger.

 

[island]

Although I agree that it is a bit pointless debating this.

Extremely. It borders on absurd.

 

[poshfan]

I travelled from Stamford to Leeds 2 weeks ago on an advance 1st, EC & connections. Stamford to Peterborough is normally Cross Country, which do have first, but my train at 07.19 was one of the few East Midlands trains on this line and they don't have first. My first class reservation ticket for this leg specifically reserved me a 2nd class seat.

I knew I would be getting this train and knew it did not have 1st but I still got a 1st ticket. Why? Simple - Stamford-Leeds 1st was cheaper than Stamford-Peterborough 2nd plus Peterborough-Leeds 1st.

I don't use commuter trains so can't comment on them, but prefer 1st on EC and CC - if reasonable advance rates are available - because you get more space and it is generally more peaceful due to the lower density of seats, and the lower occupancy of what seats there are. Plus it's nice to have a table in front of you to read your paper on and have a cuppa instead of having the back of the next seat 2 inches in front of your nose. For occasional travel, with advance tickets, I think first is well worth it. Most people have some disposable income, so it's your choice whether to spend it on beer, fags, designer gear or whatever you are into. Some choose to spend a bit more for more comfortable travel.