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What are southeastern's contract obligations for checking 1st class tickets?

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Deano

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Hi. On the national rail conditions of carriage it stipulates a contract is entered between purchaser and train company when you buy a ticket. They then list a number of conditions the ticket buyer must comply with.

My question is what are the conditions of contract that the train company has to adhere to. Does anyone know?

Principally my issues lie in being a first class season ticket holder on southeastern but I find myself complaining several times per week about a lack of ticket inspections and/or failing to issue penalty fares to those who travel in first class on a STD ticket. Surely this is in breach of contract?
 
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mister-sparky

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All First Class accomodation on London commuter trains should be banned. This is 2014 not 1914. They are a complete waste of space and old fashioned. If people think they're too good to sit with normal people then they shouldn't be on a public train.
 

Muzer

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All First Class accomodation on London commuter trains should be banned. This is 2014 not 1914. They are a complete waste of space and old fashioned. If people think they're too good to sit with normal people then they shouldn't be on a public train.
With commuter trains, it's more people paying more to get a much higher chance of having a seat. I don't see a problem with that, personally.
 

Mintona

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Not enough space to make it worth getting rid of. If you were going to gain 100 seats by removing it then fair enough, but you'll only 24 per 4 car (375) unit.
 
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If this is like the First Class on my local route into Paddington, it's a complete waste of money to buy a First Class ticket. Firstly as the trains are Driver Only there is never anyone to check who is sitting where. Secondly the trains are so busy that people will sit anywhere they can regardless whether it is a First or Standard seat or luggage rack! :)
 

Bishopstone

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Not enough space to make it worth getting rid of. If you were going to gain 100 seats by removing it then fair enough, but you'll only 24 per 4 car (375) unit.

Probably even less than that, because some of the former First ticket holders will continue to travel, often in the same seats, but now with Standard tickets having paid £2k less per annum to the railway.

There are valid arguments for abolishing First on commuter trains, but the 'extra capacity' would be insignificant.
 

jon0844

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Clearly the problem is the passengers breaking the rules and a lack of enforcement, not first class itself.
 

Class83

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The 24 people (times how many 4 car units into London during rush hour) who get a seat might look on it a lot more positively.
 

yorksrob

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Also, it doesn‘t help that on SouthEastern, first is practically identical to standard.
 

DJL

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It depends how many of those 1st class seats are not occupied by 1st class ticket holders as to whether they should be removed or not.

At lot has been said about 1st class on here lately, some agree with and some I don't. But it occurs to me perhaps some services could benefit from some kind of 1.5 class with slightly different rules - i.e. anyone can sit there but only if no 1st class ticket holder is without a seat.
In other words the only thing the 1st class ticket gives you on that service is an increased chance (though still no guarantee) of a seat.

I guess its kind of similar to the under 5s without tickets rule.

Might be difficult to enforce though...
 

JohnB57

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Principally my issues lie in being a first class season ticket holder on southeastern but I find myself complaining several times per week about a lack of ticket inspections and/or failing to issue penalty fares to those who travel in first class on a STD ticket. Surely this is in breach of contract?
How do you know what class of ticket they have? Are you doing your own check or are they just the "wrong class of person"?
 

455driver

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Hi. On the national rail conditions of carriage it stipulates a contract is entered between purchaser and train company when you buy a ticket. They then list a number of conditions the ticket buyer must comply with.

My question is what are the conditions of contract that the train company has to adhere to. Does anyone know?

Principally my issues lie in being a first class season ticket holder on southeastern but I find myself complaining several times per week about a lack of ticket inspections and/or failing to issue penalty fares to those who travel in first class on a STD ticket. Surely this is in breach of contract?

So you have a 1st class ticket and South Eastern are conveying you in 1st class accomodation, yes?
In what way are they in breach of contract?

Do the conditions state that 1st class tickets will only be sold to persons of a suitable class/upbringing?
Do the conditions state that the accomodation will be free of the lower classes?
 

asylumxl

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Probably even less than that, because some of the former First ticket holders will continue to travel, often in the same seats, but now with Standard tickets having paid £2k less per annum to the railway.

This is something that really grates me on this forum.

I would argue that while first class passengers pay a higher price they are outnumbered by standard class passengers by a large margin. Capacity is not purely measured in number of seats, neither officially or otherwise. The reality is that in the majority of cases it would only take a rather small number of standard class passengers to make up the shortfall in revenue.
 

mister-sparky

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Not enough space to make it worth getting rid of. If you were going to gain 100 seats by removing it then fair enough, but you'll only 24 per 4 car (375) unit.

So on just ONE packed 12 coach peak commuter train that's 72 extra seats! 72 extra people can sit down instead of having to stand up for 45mins or worse on some occasions.

And you think that's not worth it....?!
 

asylumxl

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So on just ONE packed 12 coach peak commuter train that's 72 extra seats! 72 extra people can sit down instead of having to stand up for 45mins or worse on some occasions.

And you think that's not worth it....?!

This. Plus it also means people can take advantage of the extra standing room.

What always amuses me is watching first class ticket holders cram in to the compartment on a FCCs 377 rather than stand in a more more spacious standard.
 

Bushy

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All First Class accomodation on London commuter trains should be banned. This is 2014 not 1914. They are a complete waste of space and old fashioned. If people think they're too good to sit with normal people then they shouldn't be on a public train.
Please!! we don't want those first class passengers sitting in our standard class accommodation! ;)

Bushy
 

Deano

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Thanks to all who have contributed. It’s certainly brought out some interesting views. The issue isn’t one of social class so let’s leave that out of the debate. I use the term due to the fact that it is the rail company’s description of the two levels of service they provide; one providing a regular seat whereas the other slightly more legroom for an additional fee. I chose the latter as you are almost guaranteed a seat versus a seat/stand option dependent upon how late you board before departure, or how far from the destination station you board the train. There is nothing more to it.

The debate about capacity, in my experience, is largely irrelevant. When the train is exceptionally busy the conductor will declassify 1st class, which is fine as 1st class ticket holders can request the difference in refund. In addition, if no 1st class accommodation is available on any train where it is advertised as being available (all weekday trains on my route are advertised with 1st class seating available) a refund can again be requested. The conditions of use are clearly displayed throughout the 1st class sections. Must be in possession of a valid 1st class ticket to be seated or standing in the 1st class section, or permission has been granted. Otherwise £20 fine or twice the 1st class fare whatever is greater etc. Upgrades cannot be bought on board if you started your journey where ticketing facilities were available. I’m sure we’re all familiar with them.

As I commute you learn who is a 1st class ticket holder over time as they are regular travellers and will pass ticket inspection. It is when on the numerous occasions where you see difference faces all the time i.e. not regulars, random people etc. Their body language can be telling, not to mention the speed at which 1st class is vacated on the rare occasion I’ve witnessed approaching enforcement. Mostly these situations go unchallenged, or the conductor sits in the rear drivers cab, or simply asks people to move out of 1st class without issuing appropriate penalties. It’s as though they are afraid to enforce their own rules.

Again I stress this isn’t discriminatory; it’s about sitting there time and time again thinking why am I the only mug around here stupid enough to pay the extra money for this service, i.e. abide by the rules. On one morning train, in one 1st class service, they could issue penalties to 10 out of the 12 passengers, capturing a minimum of £200 in the process. That’s one section, on one train, in one morning. Their business model relies on receiving the appropriate revenue for the services they offer, so when there is obvious persistent abuse of the rules and staff on board are empowered to enforce these rules, why are they not doing so?

We all pay through the roof to use the train services. Surely appropriate enforcement across the whole network will, for a time at least, generate significant useful revenue to the benefit of all. It’s almost, by knowing the problem exists but failing to act to resolve it, they are advertising a distinct two tier service pre-departure but upon departure the flood gates can open and anyone can sit where they like. Imagine that being the case on a flight? Not a one off, but every time you flew? No-one in their right mind would put up with it.

My original post was regarding a breach of contract. The conditions of carriage stipulate if you breach the 1st class rules you will be issued with a penalty. The train company are not enforcing these rules time and time again, and I was wondering whether as a TOC there are legal obligations they are required to abide by.
 

yorkie

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... The conditions of carriage stipulate if you breach the 1st class rules you will be issued with a penalty.....
It says "may be issued with a Penalty Fare", but you have to bear in mind the Penalty Fare guidelines state that it is not best practice for Guards to issue Penalty Fares, so if a Guard is checking tickets, they may well not be authorised to issue Penalty Fares, in which case the result will likely be different to if a Revenue Protection Officer/Inspector is checking tickets.

A Guard may not be able to "enforce" the Penalty Fare rules because that is not their job to do that,.

If you believe someone is intentionally avoiding payment of the fare, a Penalty Fare isn't appropriate, and there are threads on here where people have asked for advice because a Train Company is considering a prosecution.
 

user15681

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If it's worrying you that much, you could always send an email to Southeastern's 'Eyewitness' scheme when it happens, at eyewitness@southeasternrailway.co.uk. It's designed for low level crime such as vandalism, anti social behaviour, fare evasion etc. You email them telling them where, when, who, what and it goes straight to the Revenue Enforcement Officers in the central control room. Even if they don't send REOs to investigate, and I can't guarantee they will, they'll log it down to try and identify patterns or regular occurrences which they can then prevent in future.

Although, it's worth saying, you may want to be absolutely certain the people in first don't have tickets before you email, and include as much information as possible as to why you suspect them of fare evading. Remember, just because they look like they shouldn't be there, it doesn't mean they haven't got a first class ticket.

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/eyewitness/
 
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Wolfie

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So on just ONE packed 12 coach peak commuter train that's 72 extra seats! 72 extra people can sit down instead of having to stand up for 45mins or worse on some occasions.

And you think that's not worth it....?!

Logic failure alert!

You are assuming either that none of those 72 seats are currently occupied or that they are currently occupied and that those doing so will no longer travel by train in the event that 1st class is abolished!

The reality is that in peak time most, if not all, of those seats will be occupied, the majority by 1st class ticket holders. In the event that 1st class is abolished those individuals will most likely continue travelling by train but just pay less.
 

Tibbs

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This. Plus it also means people can take advantage of the extra standing room.

What always amuses me is watching first class ticket holders cram in to the compartment on a FCCs 377 rather than stand in a more more spacious standard.

Given that a standard ticket is not valid in 1st, is a 1st class ticket valid in standard?
 

Deano

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It says "may be issued with a Penalty Fare", but you have to bear in mind the Penalty Fare guidelines state that it is not best practice for Guards to issue Penalty Fares...

Well that depends upon who's conditions you read. National rail says WILL versus the TOC who says MAY. That's one of the reasons I asked my original question.
 

Anvil1984

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It says "may be issued with a Penalty Fare", but you have to bear in mind the Penalty Fare guidelines state that it is not best practice for Guards to issue Penalty Fares...

Well that depends upon who's conditions you read. National rail says WILL versus the TOC who says MAY. That's one of the reasons I asked my original question.

The TOC is probably more reliable. I don't think any TOCs conductors / guards can issue penalty fares, they can insist the passenger pays an upgrade but 99 times out of 100 it isn't going to happen. Only RPIs / RPOs can issue penalty fares and they tend to be only small teams so aren't likely to be on every service
 

hairyhandedfool

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What is your source for this statement?

I don't have access to staff documents right now, but putting aside the fact that I work in a railway ticket office, and should really know these things, and looking at it logically for a moment.....

You can buy a First Class ticket from Patricroft to London (from online journey planners). Given that no services that stop at Patricroft have First Class accommodation, what validity would it have if they were not allowed in Standard Class?

If First Class tickets were not permitted in Standard Class, a First Class Anytime Single from Manchester to Sheffield, 'Rte Any Permitted', would not be valid on East Midlands Trains or Northern Rail services (leaving only FTPE) as they have no First Class accommodation on that route (unless EMT happen to have a 222 substituting for an unavailable 158). I believe this could be seen to contravene NRCoC Condition 10 (Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies).

There is also NRCoC Condition 38 (Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket), which states that if advertised First Class is not available the difference may be refunded. Since you may not be able to get a refund on the non-available First Class until after you have traveled (you might miss the train) you must be able to use First Class tickets in standard class.

Why would a train company alienate a passenger because they have paid more then the Standard Class fare for the same journey?
 

Tibbs

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I don't have access to staff documents right now, but putting aside the fact that I work in a railway ticket office, and should really know these things, and looking at it logically for a moment.....

You can buy a First Class ticket from Patricroft to London (from online journey planners). Given that no services that stop at Patricroft have First Class accommodation, what validity would it have if they were not allowed in Standard Class?

<snip>

Why would a train company alienate a passenger because they have paid more then the Standard Class fare for the same journey?

The examples you've used have been from situations where First is not available, which isn't the case in the example given earlier. That was the case of people cramming themselves into First when there was space in Std.

Now it's likely that these people are just snobs, but it may (coincidentally) be that they're not allowed to travel there anyway.

As for train companies alienating passengers - why would they worry about that? They're not struggling for passenger numebrs, and they have a largely captive market, so the satisfation of the travellers is largely irrelevant. It's a shame for the front line staff who have to deal with the fall out, but there you go...
 
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