Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[richw]

A post on another blog claims that Western Greyhound have lost the Truro Park and Ride to First Devon & Cornwall. Bad news if true - WG have operated it very well with those fine Citaros.

Considering that First replaced the bendy Citaros on the Eden Project P&R with older, rattly Volvo/Wrights cast-offs from Bath it doesn't bode well.

They've also lost the Falmouth Park and Ride. Cornwall Ferries have now got that in house though with a couple of ex RH Transport Tridents.

The six Park and Ride Citaros I understood belonged to Cornwall Council rather than WG anyway.

Are you sure First havent wont the contract for the New East Park and Ride (by the cattle market) as that went to tender recently, and First are now advertising a park and ride service from Cattle market to city centre.

 

[overthewater]

A post on another blog claims that Western Greyhound have lost the Truro Park and Ride to First Devon & Cornwall. Bad news if true - WG have operated it very well with those fine Citaros.

Considering that First replaced the bendy Citaros on the Eden Project P&R with older, rattly Volvo/Wrights cast-offs from Bath it doesn't bode well.

First are undercutting to grab as much work as possible. If it does not work well....

 

[swifty]

Considering that First replaced the bendy Citaros on the Eden Project P&R with older, rattly Volvo/Wrights cast-offs from Bath it doesn't bode well.

The Citaros had been leased by Truronian when that period finished, First replaced them with owned Volvos.
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First are undercutting to grab as much work as possible. If it does not work well....

Any proof to back up your statement? Or is it idle gossip again?

 

[overthewater]

Any proof to back up your statement? Or is it idle gossip again?

This goes back to last years when First won a good number of tenders from WGH. It was stated then first bids were lower. Problem is First Cornwall is not in best of health and addition revenue even from the contracts should help out.

 

[richw]

A post on another blog claims that Western Greyhound have lost the Truro Park and Ride to First Devon & Cornwall. Bad news if true - WG have operated it very well with those fine Citaros.

Considering that First replaced the bendy Citaros on the Eden Project P&R with older, rattly Volvo/Wrights cast-offs from Bath it doesn't bode well.

Can you provide a link to the other blog, nothing shows on Google.

 

[DaveHarries]

Can you provide a link to the other blog, nothing shows on Google.

From the VOSA (Western Region) Bus Service Registrations for 29th July 2013:

PH0006741/60 - WESTERN GREYHOUND LTD, WESTERN HOUSE, ST. AUSTELL STREET, SUMMERCOURT, NEWQUAY, TR8 5DR
Cancellation Accepted by SN: Operating between Langarth Farm Park & Ride and Truro City Centre given service number P R1 effective from 02-Sep-2013.

Dave

 

[swifty]

This goes back to last years when First won a good number of tenders from WGH. It was stated then first bids were lower. Problem is First Cornwall is not in best of health and addition revenue even from the contracts should help out.

Yes I'm fully aware of the 2012 tenders that First won utilising a lower cost base, but to say they only won the P&R contract because they undercut everyone else? With Alex in charge now they'll have got the sums right.
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From the VOSA (Western Region) Bus Service Registrations for 29th July 2013:

PH0006741/60 - WESTERN GREYHOUND LTD, WESTERN HOUSE, ST. AUSTELL STREET, SUMMERCOURT, NEWQUAY, TR8 5DR
Cancellation Accepted by SN: Operating between Langarth Farm Park & Ride and Truro City Centre given service number P R1 effective from 02-Sep-2013.

Dave

It's also interesting to note that First will be taking up operation of the full cross Truro route when the eastern P&R site opens in July of next year.

 

[richw]

Cornwall Council website confirms they own the 6 blue Citaros (2 remaining since the fire). There was no WG branding on them barring the small operator logo. I believe the P+R is run on a management contract, with the operator providing the staff and running costs.
The branding on the Citaros was "A Service provided by Cornwall Council"

 

[swifty]

Cornwall Council website confirms they own the 6 blue Citaros (2 remaining since the fire). There was no WG branding on them barring the small operator logo. I believe the P+R is run on a management contract, with the operator providing the staff and running costs.
The branding on the Citaros was "A Service provided by Cornwall Council"

Correct, see my quote from the tender here http://railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1519987&postcount=1122

 

[SWTH]

Known about it for a week now but obviously until the info became public through official sources (VOSA etc) I couldn't mention it. Not good news for WGL, and with Cornwall Council looking to make more cuts. Word is that by next April all normal service work will be retendered again cutting out the evening and weekend subsidies - though I stress this is currently unconfirmed unless anyone here has better info.

 

[richw]

The cut of evening and weekend subsidies have been publicised locally.My grandad regularly uses the evening 41 to go from redruth to a sports club in penryn he's a member of, and he often says on the 10xx back he has the bus to himself. He's a bus pass holder so the fares collected are near enough zero. Would probably be cheaper for the council to subsidise a taxi for him.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This goes back to last years when First won a good number of tenders from WGH. It was stated then first bids were lower. Problem is First Cornwall is not in best of health and addition revenue even from the contracts should help out.

My understanding is that Cornwall Council were looking to reduce costs. WG submitted based on newer vehicles whilst First actually met what CC were looking for and submitted lower costs based on older vehicles. CC had removed any thoughts of a quality vs. cost value mix but were purely on price

There were a load of portents of doom last year when this was announced with predictions that First had got their sums wrong.

The reality is more likely that First have clicked that they can't get a 10% margin on tendered work. Also, fully depreciated kit + running costs + contribution to fixed costs (e.g. depot, management) is probably helping the overall cause. The winning of the Truro P&R is a bit of a coup, especially as it will expand with the Eastern site

 

[richw]

My understanding is that Cornwall Council were looking to reduce costs. WG submitted based on newer vehicles whilst First actually met what CC were looking for and submitted lower costs based on older vehicles. CC had removed any thoughts of a quality vs. cost value mix but were purely on price

There were a load of portents of doom last year when this was announced with predictions that First had got their sums wrong.

The reality is more likely that First have clicked that they can't get a 10% margin on tendered work. Also, fully depreciated kit + running costs + contribution to fixed costs (e.g. depot, management) is probably helping the overall cause. The winning of the Truro P&R is a bit of a coup, especially as it will expand with the Eastern site

As cornwall council own the vehicles not the operator, would the vehicles being used not be identical, or is WG saying they want new vehicles provided by the council, and First are saying to the council they can give them old buses? The invitation to tender clearly states the operator will lease the buses from the council who will remain as owners of the vehicles. Therefore depreciation and vehicles would be irrelevant.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As cornwall council own the vehicles not the operator, would the vehicles being used not be identical, or is WG saying they want new vehicles provided by the council, and First are saying to the council they can give them old buses? The invitation to tender clearly states the operator will lease the buses from the council who will remain as owners of the vehicles. Therefore depreciation and vehicles would be irrelevant.

Refers to last year's tender wins as per OTW's opening line. Keep up

P&R will be new kit esp. as most of the fleet was torched

 

[richw]

Refers to last year's tender wins as per OTW's opening line. Keep up

P&R will be new kit esp. as most of the fleet was torched

Oh yes, hadnt cottoned on that you werent referring to P+R,

Will be interesting to see what the council provide for the P+R to replace the Citaros.

Will the current P+R Drivers move to First by TUPE or will they remain with WG. I understand WG pay considerably better than First, so reduced staff wages may also have contributed to being able to provide a cheaper service.

 

[SWTH]

Wrong way around Rich. First pay much much better nowadays.

P&R staff all have the option to TUPE over to First, but I doubt many will.

 

[richw]

Wrong way around Rich. First pay much much better nowadays.

P&R staff all have the option to TUPE over to First, but I doubt many will.

That's surprising first pay better. Must admit it was 2-3 years ago I saw wg paid better in job adverts. At that time wg were advertising vacancies around 50p hour better.

 

[SWTH]

It'll be even longer ago than that - First have been ahead of WGL on driver pay since mid-2010. The drivers at WGL haven't had a pay rise since then.

 

[Goldfish62]

It'll be even longer ago than that - First have been ahead of WGL on driver pay since mid-2010. The drivers at WGL haven't had a pay rise since then.

And First have a company pension scheme and TU recognition.
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Wrong way around Rich. First pay much much better nowadays.

P&R staff all have the option to TUPE over to First, but I doubt many will.

Ultimately, if TUPE applies (ie if the staff mainly drive on P&R) WGL can force the drivers to move to First, or remain at WGL on new, worse, contracts. That's the perversity of TUPE - established to protect employees, but often doing anything but.

 

[SWTH]

Previous experience would suggest that those that wish to remain with WGL will continue under the same pay as before (P&R drivers are on the same rates as all other WGL drivers). Certainly there are vacancies on the service rosters that need filling.

The next big hurdle will be the retendering exercise that is being drawn up by Cornwall Council.

 

[RPI]

This goes back to last years when First won a good number of tenders from WGH. It was stated then first bids were lower. Problem is First Cornwall is not in best of health and addition revenue even from the contracts should help out.

It's in better health than most would think, it's one of the few areas where there haven't been mass cuts in service and there has been an increase in overall passenger numbers (with the exception of Plymouth).

 

[Goldfish62]

It's in better health than most would think, it's one of the few areas where there haven't been mass cuts in service and there has been an increase in overall passenger numbers (with the exception of Plymouth).

Next year is Probably going to be one of the most significant years for decades for bus services in Cornwall and the operators themselves.

The two biggies:
-the retendering exercise - will it or won't it result in wholesale cuts to services? Two years ago the outcry was such that the proposed massive cuts did not happen.
-DDA-imposed ban on Varios and other high floor minibuses on local bus services after 31 Dec 2014.

The two are inextricably linked for WGL - it may actually be better for the company if it has a significant down-sizing, then Vario replacement becomes a lesser issue. Not an issue for FDC as they've only a got a couple left. It would, however, become an issue if they win deep rural work off WGL and have to source suitable vehicles.

We should know in 2-3 months time what Cornwall Council's intentions are regarding the tendered bus network. It's going to hit a lot of people terribly hard if the cutbacks are significant. Cornwall is England's poorest county.

Interesting times ahead.:roll:

 

[richw]

Next year is Probably going to be one of the most significant years for decades for bus services in Cornwall and the operators themselves.

The two biggies:
-the retendering exercise - will it or won't it result in wholesale cuts to services? Two years ago the outcry was such that the proposed massive cuts did not happen.
-DDA-imposed ban on Varios and other high floor minibuses on local bus services after 31 Dec 2014.

The two are inextricably linked for WGL - it may actually be better for the company if it has a significant down-sizing, then Vario replacement becomes a lesser issue. Not an issue for FDC as they've only a got a couple left. It would, however, become an issue if they win deep rural work off WGL and have to source suitable vehicles.

We should know in 2-3 months time what Cornwall Council's intentions are regarding the tendered bus network. It's going to hit a lot of people terribly hard if the cutbacks are significant. Cornwall is England's poorest county.

Interesting times ahead.:roll:

In addition to this the government are looking into introducing a 5p per litre fuel rebate for us down here,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23520072

 

[Goldfish62]

In addition to this the government are looking into introducing a 5p per litre fuel rebate for us down here,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23520072

Oh that's just wonderful.

 

[richw]

Oh that's just wonderful.

They say its because rural areas wont have buses or public transport, I'm not complaining, but its not exactly going to make a difference when we're charges £1.41 a litre for diesel already.
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The First take over on P+R has made the news now

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/tak...tory-19609967-detail/story.html#axzz2avwq7vTs

.The Truro Park and Ride service will be run by First South West from next month.

Cornwall Council has awarded the bus operator a five year contract.

Western Greyhound previously ran the service until its contract expired.

Western Greyhound staff currently working on the Truro Park and Ride service will be given the opportunity to continue working for the service by transferring across to First South West or they can remaining with Western Greyhound.

Alex Carter, managing director for First South West, said: "First is thrilled to win the tender to operate the Truro Park and Ride service. We will ensure that the high standards of service are maintained and we will work with the council to enhance the service."

Mark Howarth, Western Greyhound's managing director, said: "We were delighted to be entrusted by Cornwall Council to introduce the service five years ago. We have worked hard to build the Truro Park and Ride to the high standard of customer satisfaction that it now enjoys, and look forward to seeing it grow from strength to strength in the future.

The new contract runs from September 2

This Is Cornwall have used a First Bristol bus to portray the article.

 

[83G/84D]

They say its because rural areas wont have buses or public transport, I'm not complaining, but its not exactly going to make a difference when we're charges £1.41 a litre for diesel already.
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The First take over on P+R has made the news now

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/tak...tory-19609967-detail/story.html#axzz2avwq7vTs



This Is Cornwall have used a First Bristol bus to portray the article.

Bristol has better buses than First Kernow - FACT.

Add to that they have some spare one's they don't want so they will probably be on the P&R next month. Either them or some spare bendy's! :roll:

 

[richw]

Bristol has better buses than First Kernow - FACT.

Add to that they have some spare one's they don't want so they will probably be on the P&R next month. Either them or some spare bendy's! :roll:

On this there are have been Citaro bendys driving round Truro on trade plates with no identification or number plates in the last fortnight. I guessed they may have been for Eden P+R. Not sure if I have seen the same one of different ones due to no ID.

(When I say driving round Truro, I've actually seen about half a dozen times driving along Newham, not seen anywhere else in Truro).

 

[swifty]

On this there are have been Citaro bendys driving round Truro on trade plates with no identification or number plates in the last fortnight. I guessed they may have been for Eden P+R. Not sure if I have seen the same one of different ones due to no ID.

(When I say driving round Truro, I've actually seen about half a dozen times driving along Newham, not seen anywhere else in Truro).

11036 SN04XYA (04-D-62404) & 11037 (04-D-62405). Ex Aircoach, they were with First Scotland East, but not registered, and I believe one was used on a contract at Leeds Bradford Airport.

 

[richw]

11036 SN04XYA (04-D-62404) & 11037 (04-D-62405). Ex Aircoach, they were with First Scotland East, but not registered, and I believe one was used on a contract at Leeds Bradford Airport.

Do you know what duties they are going to be used for? Took me a few moments to realise they were irish registrations!

 

[DaveHarries]

On this there are have been Citaro bendys driving round Truro on trade plates with no identification or number plates in the last fortnight [.....] (When I say driving round Truro, I've actually seen about half a dozen times driving along Newham, not seen anywhere else in Truro).

11036 SN04XYA (04-D-62404) & 11037 (04-D-62405). Ex Aircoach, they were with First Scotland East, but not registered, and I believe one was used on a contract at Leeds Bradford Airport.

Just found a photo of SN04 XYA at the Truro P&R site:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56793172@N05/9393603727/

Dave