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West Yorkshire bus franchising

LucyP

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"Not between Harrogate and Wetherby where competition resulted in the public purse having to fund the former route."

Not true. It actually led to lower fares, a more frequent service, and a faster bus route. Transdev reduced eventually reduced the frequency of the 7, and but for competition, there would be only 1 bus per hour between Harrogate and Wetherby, whereas during the day, there now are 3.

Transdev would have likely demanded public funding for the Follifoot route, or would have changed it to their current route.
 
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SCH117X

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"Not between Harrogate and Wetherby where competition resulted in the public purse having to fund the former route."

Not true. It actually led to lower fares, a more frequent service, and a faster bus route. Transdev reduced eventually reduced the frequency of the 7, and but for competition, there would be only 1 bus per hour between Harrogate and Wetherby, whereas during the day, there now are 3.

Transdev would have likely demanded public funding for the Follifoot route, or would have changed it to their current route.
How it not true when route through Follifoot then had to be funded by the public purse? If Connexions were not duplicating Transdevs service no doubt the latter would not have been reduced.
 

YorkRailFan

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Not true. It actually led to lower fares, a more frequent service, and a faster bus route. Transdev reduced eventually reduced the frequency of the 7, and but for competition, there would be only 1 bus per hour between Harrogate and Wetherby, whereas during the day, there now are 3.
(My bolding)

Lower fares are irrelevant now under the fare cap. Whether someone hops on a 7 or X70, it will cost them £3 for a single journey. Whether we return to a non-capped fares scheme is anyone's guess.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Then deregulation happened and the service nosedived.
That wasn't my experience to be honest. Yorkshire Rider innovated with new routes, and expansion of minibus services which reduced many people's walk to their nearest bus. The decline in Huddersfield started when YR was absorbed into what became First.
That's not to say that small operators are always better than big ones. Over the years there have been plenty of fly-by-night cowboy operations, the likes of Easi-Rider and the ironically-named Streamline with their rattly Darts spring to mind.
 

quantinghome

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That wasn't my experience to be honest. Yorkshire Rider innovated with new routes, and expansion of minibus services which reduced many people's walk to their nearest bus. The decline in Huddersfield started when YR was absorbed into what became First.
That's not to say that small operators are always better than big ones. Over the years there have been plenty of fly-by-night cowboy operations, the likes of Easi-Rider and the ironically-named Streamline with their rattly Darts spring to mind.
I guess our mileages may vary... My experience was an immediate and sustained drop in service, from the day Yorkshire Rider started. This was on one of the main routes in Leeds. The number of buses was cut, which meant they were completely packed. Bus after bus would just sail past my stop because there was no room for anyone to get on. I ended up switching to the next stop where enough people got off for there to be some room on board. Then the above inflation fare increases started. Then they withdrew the saverstrip*. Not only was this a bad deal for passengers but also massively increased boarding times (this was years before card-based purchasing). Then First took over...

* For those who didn't frequent West Yorkshire buses in the 80s, this was a carnet-style strip which gave you 12 journeys for the price of 10 and was validated using a machine by the door.
 

Tetchytyke

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Then they withdrew the saverstrip*. Not only was this a bad deal for passengers but also massively increased boarding times (this was years before card-based purchasing)
The saverstrip lasted well into the deregulation era, I remember them (and the machines which ate your entire strip if you weren’t careful) and I didn’t move to the UK until 1988. I also don’t recall dwell times being particularly long because Yorkshire Rider operated an exact fare policy with the fare hoppers.

The old West Yorkshire Road Car services noticeably declined once Yorkshire Rider had acquired them in the early 90s, though. Depending on where you lived in Leeds that may be what you remember, there was a lot of consolidation of routes in north/west Leeds after the acquisition which resulted in fewer buses to places like Yeadon and Guiseley.

And then along came Badgerline and then First. Originally an improvement- the the Overground and the FirstCard (with the BusMiles rewards scheme) off-bus payment cards were genuinely revolutionary- obviously everything started to decline once Moir Lockhead properly got going.
 

Deerfold

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The saverstrip lasted well into the deregulation era, I remember them (and the machines which ate your entire strip if you weren’t careful) and I didn’t move to the UK until 1988.
They lasted a few years into that era, but much longer on trains than buses.
I also don’t recall dwell times being particularly long because Yorkshire Rider operated an exact fare policy with the fare hoppers.
I don't know if they did that on some routes, but they didn't have them in Bradford or Calderdale on the routes I used.
The old West Yorkshire Road Car services noticeably declined once Yorkshire Rider had acquired them in the early 90s, though. Depending on where you lived in Leeds that may be what you remember, there was a lot of consolidation of routes in north/west Leeds after the acquisition which resulted in fewer buses to places like Yeadon and Guiseley.
Indeed. Bradford-Guiseley has gone from 8 an hour pre-deregulation to 1. Leeds to Guiseley has dropped a lot, but not by that percentage. The 33 and 34 have been cut by a third from Leeds, to Otley by a third and to Ilkley by 100%. The 733/4 have disappeared completely as have the services from Bradford to Ilkley and Otley/Harrogate from Bradford via Guiseley.
And then along came Badgerline and then First. Originally an improvement- the the Overground and the FirstCard (with the BusMiles rewards scheme) off-bus payment cards were genuinely revolutionary- obviously everything started to decline once Moir Lockhead properly got going.
There were some improvements, with my local services being better spaced out, if not actually improved in frequency, but there seems to have been no improvements other then taking cards in the last 20 years (excluding schemes paid for by Metro).

The only places that seemed to get better frequencies where those where they were fighting off competition. As soon as the competition went, so did the frequencies.

When there was competition to Sowerby, First managed a direct bus every 10 minutes and 2 slower ones an hour, as well as 5 an hour from the competition.

Now there's 2 an hour from First and 1 subsided with early and late services slashed, having dropped quickly to just 4 an hour and then continuing to cut.

In the 80s there was a bus every 5 minutes from Halifax to Sowerby Bridge on various routes, but all coordinated, half that in the evening.

Now, typically, in the evening there's 2 an hour, but not half an hour apart.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Saverstrip was a very complicated system though. Different strips had to be printed for each individual fare value, including additional ones for child fares. If your regular commute involved two buses with different fares for each leg, you needed to buy a different strip for each one. Before he passed his driving test my dad used two different saverstrips on his commute to work- a 15p one into Huddersfield and a 20p one out to Kirkheaton. Eventually he switched to a MetroCard as it meant he could use it to take us kids on days out at weekends without eating into next week's fares.
 

Tetchytyke

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I don't know if they did that on some routes, but they didn't have them in Bradford or Calderdale on the routes I used.
Bradford had the exact fare hoppers, they only went in the late 90s (when overground came in) and the drivers even threatened strike action about it. They were aghast at having to give change. We had a big jar of 5p, 2p, and 1p coins on our mantelpiece to pay the fares as they were always a nice round number like 23p or 37p.

I don’t know if other Yorkshire Rider opcos had hoppers, when I went on those buses I always had a DayRover so it didn’t affect me.
 

Deerfold

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Saverstrip was a very complicated system though. Different strips had to be printed for each individual fare value, including additional ones for child fares. If your regular commute involved two buses with different fares for each leg, you needed to buy a different strip for each one. Before he passed his driving test my dad used two different saverstrips on his commute to work- a 15p one into Huddersfield and a 20p one out to Kirkheaton. Eventually he switched to a MetroCard as it meant he could use it to take us kids on days out at weekends without eating into next week's fares.
It would have been simpler with a zonal system but it wasn't that complicated.

I used to use 30p (off -peak train fare), 45p (peak train fare) and 15p (bus fare). Those were all child fares circa 1986. Were your dad's earlier? I switched to a student Metrocard around 1989 once they were available to under 18s!

I usually had a spare 15p Saverstrip which could make up any of the others (and once they weren't multiples of that, a 5p, too).
 

citybus2500

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Bradford had the exact fare hoppers, they only went in the late 90s (when overground came in) and the drivers even threatened strike action about it. They were aghast at having to give change. We had a big jar of 5p, 2p, and 1p coins on our mantelpiece to pay the fares as they were always a nice round number like 23p or 37p.

I don’t know if other Yorkshire Rider opcos had hoppers, when I went on those buses I always had a DayRover so it didn’t affect me.
Most of the routes in Bradford were with fareboxes, and various routes in Huddersfield had them (historically one person operated routes from Great Northern Street depot).

Up until the early 1980s, Bradford only had one person operated services on the 72, 88 (pay driver) and 636/637 and 640/642 (farebox), all on one driver rota. Everything else still had conductors.

And prior to mass driver only conversions, drivers on farebox routes had a change float, so if you didn't have the exact fare you could give the driver a 50p coin, and he would give you back 50p in change so you could put the correct fare in the vault!
 

61653 HTAFC

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It would have been simpler with a zonal system but it wasn't that complicated.

I used to use 30p (off -peak train fare), 45p (peak train fare) and 15p (bus fare). Those were all child fares circa 1986. Were your dad's earlier? I switched to a student Metrocard around 1989 once they were available to under 18s!

I usually had a spare 15p Saverstrip which could make up any of the others (and once they weren't multiples of that, a 5p, too).
Saverstrips also didn't survive so well in kids' pockets. My junior school teachers each had a folder to store them for the kids who caught the service bus into school, to make sure they could get home at the end of the day.
The TfL "Saver" Carnets from around the turn of the century were a much better system, though in a much simplified environment fares-wise.
 

Deerfold

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Saverstrips also didn't survive so well in kids' pockets. My junior school teachers each had a folder to store them for the kids who caught the service bus into school, to make sure they could get home at the end of the day.
The TfL "Saver" Carnets from around the turn of the century were a much better system, though in a much simplified environment fares-wise.
We used to have stiff pouches with a clear front provided by Metro for storing them in.

 

citybus2500

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We used to have stiff pouches with a clear front provided by Metro for storing them in.

and dayrovers used to be on Saverstrip as well! They used to be fun if the driver hadn't checked the date on the machine in the morning.

Saverstrip died because of various factors, amongst them ageing equipment, and difficulty in apportioning revenue to operators. It certainly isn't fair to blame only First.

Did GM Clippercard outlast Saverstrip in some limited form?
 

Andyh82

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Saverstrips had gone way before First, before Badgerline as well, early 90s probably.

And it wasn’t just YR, everyone else stopped accepting them as well

As is always the case with these sorts of discussions, people only remember what they want to remember and compress decades into a few years suggesting it all happened one after another or only remembering the most recent thing.

It’s also worth asking these questions:
- How much in person shopping do you do on the high street now compared to in 1990 or 1980 or whenever?
- How much of this is in one of the secondary towns like Huddersfield or third towns like Dewsbury rather than Leeds?
- How many days a week are you in the office, if you work in an office, compared to those times?
- Are the rail services any better in your area now compared to 1990/1980?
- How much access to a car do or your family you have compared to those days?

If any of those questions aren’t favourable, maybe that’s part of the reason why First don’t provide the same number of buses than in YR days or WYPTE days? It’s unrealistic to expect the same level of service with all these factors.
 

johncrossley

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Denmark continued with the same technology until well into the 2010s and they only stopped using it because they brought in a new smartcard. So Yorkshire Rider/First could have stuck with it. Even after First got rid of SaverStrip they could have used other technologies, such as the machines used in Belgium, or simple strips of paper used in Italy. It was their choice to replace it with slow cash payment.
 

Deerfold

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Denmark continued with the same technology until well into the 2010s and they only stopped using it because they brought in a new smartcard.
June 30th 2015. I didn't use one until 2011.
It was their choice to replace it with slow cash payment.
Indeed - and they were several years late on their promise to take cards

Saverstrips had gone way before First, before Badgerline as well, early 90s probably.

And it wasn’t just YR, everyone else stopped accepting them as well
Yorkshire Rider stopped accepting them first. Then Arriva and Transdev stopped taking then and then all the smaller operators.

and dayrovers used to be on Saverstrip as well! They used to be fun if the driver hadn't checked the date on the machine in the morning.
Oddly I never had an incorrect date in Denmark, despite being there quite a lot for a few years.
 
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Saverstrip died because of various factors, amongst them ageing equipment, and difficulty in apportioning revenue to operators. It certainly isn't fair to blame only First.
And not least due to fraud. I didn't live in West Yorkshire at the time saverstrips were in operation, but I know a lot of people who did and many of them would boast about defrauding the machines. I believe not bothering to insert the strip and hoping the driver was too busy to notice and inserting something else (like the corner of a till receipt) so that the machine made a noise were the chief dodges, but there were probably others!
 

johncrossley

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difficulty in apportioning revenue to operators

This of course wouldn't have been a problem had deregulation not occurred. Even now, nearly 40 years on, we still have issues with one ticket not being valid on another local bus in the same town in West Yorkshire (and of course many other places).
 

Andyh82

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This of course wouldn't have been a problem had deregulation not occurred. Even now, nearly 40 years on, we still have issues with one ticket not being valid on another local bus in the same town in West Yorkshire (and of course many other places).
Surely they would still have had to apportion revenue between WYPTE and various NBC subsidiaries even back then. The machines had counters anyway, old fashioned in today’s world but you could still see how many tickets had been punched, so I’m not sure it was that.

They’ve always had all operator day tickets in West Yorkshire, and they’ve been sold on bus for probably a decade by now

The mayor will no doubt pretend they don’t exist, so they can be announced as a new thing next year
 
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GoneSouth

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It would have been simpler with a zonal system but it wasn't that complicated.

I used to use 30p (off -peak train fare), 45p (peak train fare) and 15p (bus fare). Those were all child fares circa 1986. Were your dad's earlier? I switched to a student Metrocard around 1989 once they were available to under 18s!

I usually had a spare 15p Saverstrip which could make up any of the others (and once they weren't multiples of that, a 5p, too).
30p train fares, WOW we’re getting nostalgic here. :D Can’t remember how far you could travel for that.

Kerching a school
Kerching a work
Kerching a cheaper
Kerching a saverstrip

I do remember the TV ads though :D

One of them is on this Facebook page (not mine)

 
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johncrossley

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Surely they would still have had to apportion revenue between WYPTE and various NBC subsidiaries even back then.

Presumably that would have been the case but clearly they were operating in a joint, integrated system so the likelihood of one of the partner operators pulling out would have been low. This is very similar to the situation in Switzerland and Germany where services are often operated by a variety of operators but there is only one range of tickets available.

They’ve always had all operator day tickets in West Yorkshire, and they’ve been sold on bus for probably a decade by now

Undercut by individual operators, undermining the scheme and making ticketing unnecessarily complicated. They could have agreed right from the beginning that the Metro DayRover would be the only day ticket available.
 
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Deerfold

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30p train fares, WOW we’re getting nostalgic here. :D Can’t remember how far you could travel for that.
That was a child fare, off-peak Bradford to Sowerby Bridge. Peak was 45p. The most expensive bus I caught was Bradford to Ripponden at 45p (5 stops, 45 minutes).
 

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