West Midlands Railway "Code of Conduct"

[CharlieSpotted]

Sitting on a WMR train this evening an automated announcement (of which I only heard part) spoke of a "Code of Conduct" which "asks passengers to ensure" that they have a valid ticket, as well as keeping feet off seats and putting rubbish in bins...

First time I've heard this, and all very well and good (feet on seats are a real bugbear of mine and very common on 350s)... except the part around ticketing.

Should we be really positioning having a valid ticket as "compliance with a code of conduct" as opposed to, well, the law?

Not sure if this has been very well thought through...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect this is Abellio influence? Huisregel - house rules - are almost universal in businesses of all kinds in the Netherlands, and it does include things that are also part of the law. You'll normally find them displayed near the door of any business.

 

[AngusH]

Does this fall into the
"decent people do this and you're a decent person, aren't you"
sort of plan?

 

[the sniper]

Sitting on a WMR train this evening an automated announcement (of which I only heard part) spoke of a "Code of Conduct" which "asks passengers to ensure" that they have a valid ticket, as well as keeping feet off seats and putting rubbish in bins...

First time I've heard this, and all very well and good (feet on seats are a real bugbear of mine and very common on 350s)... except the part around ticketing.

Should we be really positioning having a valid ticket as "compliance with a code of conduct" as opposed to, well, the law?

Not sure if this has been very well thought through...

Going by the Disputes & Prosecutions section, I'm imagine there are people of a delicate disposition who'd appreciate the law not being mentioned, due to it sounding too oppressive...

 

[Merseysider]

It'll have minimal impact, I'd have thought. Those who put feet on seats, vape on the train, hide ticketless in the toilets etc aren't suddenly going to be model members of society because of an announcement.

 

[Techniquest]

You didn't happen to hear it on the 1752 New Street-Crewe did you? That's where I first heard the last bit of it today, I had to wonder why it was being played to be honest!

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Robin Hood Line had a (passenger) 'code of conduct' or similar years ago. Not a new thing in Britain.

 

[bramling]

Sitting on a WMR train this evening an automated announcement (of which I only heard part) spoke of a "Code of Conduct" which "asks passengers to ensure" that they have a valid ticket, as well as keeping feet off seats and putting rubbish in bins...

First time I've heard this, and all very well and good (feet on seats are a real bugbear of mine and very common on 350s)... except the part around ticketing.

Should we be really positioning having a valid ticket as "compliance with a code of conduct" as opposed to, well, the law?

Not sure if this has been very well thought through...

I’ve always thought more should be made of the terms & conditions people agree to comply with when they purchase a ticket and travel by train.

Indeed I’ve been known to make PA announcements in this way, especially for stuff like holding doors open or playing loud music. Singling out an individual and essentially offering them the choice of comply or get off the premises - and giving them a few moments to think about their choice - in the full view of everyone else - can be surprisingly effective.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

You didn't happen to hear it on the 1752 New Street-Crewe did you? That's where I first heard the last bit of it today, I had to wonder why it was being played to be honest!

Yep!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

This is one of the newer announcements available on the 350 1/3/4s. It's manually used by conductors rather than automatically so you won't hear it often as it's rather long and covers quite a few things which are frowned upon which will be ignored by those doing so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==

I’ve always thought more should be made of the terms & conditions people agree to comply with when they purchase a ticket and travel by train.

Indeed I’ve been known to make PA announcements in this way, especially for stuff like holding doors open or playing loud music. Singling out an individual and essentially offering them the choice of comply or get off the premises - and giving them a few moments to think about their choice - in the full view of everyone else - can be surprisingly effective.

I find being a bit stricter easier if you've given such an announcement as you've already sown the seed of 'code of conduct' and if you're failing it after being reminded well it's now comply or off you pop.

I do now make much more informative announcements regarding ticketing given the potential high cost of failing to have correct tickets, better for passengers if I correct them than bumping into RPIs who PF them

 

[STINT47]

It might help to educate passengers who are unaware of the rules. Staff and members ofthe public can hand them out to passengers who's conduct falls below the required standard. The relevant issue could be highlighted with markers pens to make it clear.

Overall it will hopefully benefit everyone and make rail travel more pleasant for all

 

[Techniquest]

Yep!

I was on that from New Street to Wolverhampton, made a +1 off 196102 on the 1640 from Shrewsbury and I'd only got on as I wanted to cover the track between Bescot Stadium and Wolverhampton on a 350.

In case you're wondering, I was in coach A at the back. You'd have failed to notice me in my orange coat if you were there

As for the conduct code, I had only seen earlier in the day that a penalty fare now costs £100. I'm not one who keeps up on fares news, for example I got fed up of people arguing over LNER and Advances early in that thread about ending return fares so I never got round to getting genned up. Fares stuff rarely interests me, unless it means a day out is cheaper for me! So perhaps these announcements about the code of conduct are handy for those who really don't know what it covers etc.

From what I gather, it is mostly common sense, but I didn't hear the full announcement.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Indeed I’ve been known to make PA announcements in this way, especially for stuff like holding doors open or playing loud music. Singling out an individual and essentially offering them the choice of comply or get off the premises - and giving them a few moments to think about their choice - in the full view of everyone else - can be surprisingly effective.

I do think that manual announcements are likely to be more impactful for this kind of thing... on one recent journey a conductor used the PA to good effect to pointedly remind a particularly troublesome individual about smoking / smoke detectors in the toilets and throughout etc...

I do now make much more informative announcements regarding ticketing given the potential high cost of failing to have correct tickets, better for passengers if I correct them than bumping into RPIs who PF them

This is a trend I've noticed on WMR recently - it seems to me conductors in general are making much more detailed announcements about ticket validity etc. It also seems to me that ticket checks are more common than they were at one point.
It seems that when I hear these announcements they do tend to be made by people introducing themselves as Senior Conductors. Perhaps I just happen to be getting those trains on which we have a Senior member of staff!

All very positive, anyway!

 

[JLX5]

I do think that manual announcements are likely to be more impactful for this kind of thing... on one recent journey a conductor used the PA to good effect to pointedly remind a particularly troublesome individual about smoking / smoke detectors in the toilets and throughout etc...



This is a trend I've noticed on WMR recently - it seems to me conductors in general are making much more detailed announcements about ticket validity etc. It also seems to me that ticket checks are more common than they were at one point.
It seems that when I hear these announcements they do tend to be made by people introducing themselves as Senior Conductors. Perhaps I just happen to be getting those trains on which we have a Senior member of staff!

All very positive, anyway!

All conductors on WMR have the 'Senior Conductor' job title. I believe this is something historical and has stuck to this day.

 

[newtownmgr]

All conductors on WMR have the 'Senior Conductor' job title. I believe this is something historical and has stuck to this day.

All became senior conductors about 25 years back when they went through a restructuring package similar to the drivers DRI. Used to be conductors on Reggie rail & Senior conductors on Inter city in latter br days of sectorisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a trend I've noticed on WMR recently - it seems to me conductors in general are making much more detailed announcements about ticket validity etc. It also seems to me that ticket checks are more common than they were at one point.
It seems that when I hear these announcements they do tend to be made by people introducing themselves as Senior Conductors. Perhaps I just happen to be getting those trains on which we have a Senior member of staff!

Some WMT guards like waffling over the top of the autoannouncer with less clear announcements than the autoannouncer makes, rather than doing something actually useful like putting down the Sun*, leaving the cab and doing a ticket inspection or asking if anyone needs assistance. Some of them seem to have very poor command of English and so these announcements are of extremely poor quality. I'd discourage them from using the PA unless the autoannouncer was broken, and add ticket validity announcements to the standard announcement list - it simply brings nothing for them to just talk over it.

I don't consider this positive, I consider it a weak attempt at justifying the existence of their role in the face of the ever increasing push for DOO.

Justification for their role (bar the safety matters) would be found in them spending their whole time in the passenger saloon deterring fare dodging, petty vandalism and ASB (like playing music aloud) and offering assistance. This seems to be the plan with Merseyrail guards, and the one I encountered in the 777 was very much doing that.

* Other gutter press rags are available.

 

[newtownmgr]

Some WMT guards like waffling over the top of the autoannouncer with less clear announcements than the autoannouncer makes, rather than doing something actually useful like putting down the Sun*, leaving the cab and doing a ticket inspection or asking if anyone needs assistance. Some of them seem to have very poor command of English and so these announcements are of extremely poor quality. I'd discourage them from using the PA unless the autoannouncer was broken, and add ticket validity announcements to the standard announcement list - it simply brings nothing for them to just talk over it.

I don't consider this positive, I consider it a weak attempt at justifying the existence of their role in the face of the ever increasing push for DOO.

Justification for their role (bar the safety matters) would be found in them spending their whole time in the passenger saloon deterring fare dodging, petty vandalism and ASB (like playing music aloud) and offering assistance. This seems to be the plan with Merseyrail guards, and the one I encountered in the 777 was very much doing that.

* Other gutter press rags are available.

Ridiculous & if I’m honest offensive comment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ridiculous & if I’m honest offensive comment.

Not at all. You hardly ever see a guard in the passenger accommodation south of Northampton on WMT trains, and it's always the same few when you do. It appears to me from extensive use of the line over the past 15 years or so that there are about 5 Bletchley guards who bother doing tickets. The rest hide in the cab.

I'll happily retract that when I see a guard in the passenger accommodation on every train I use, doing something useful rather than waffling over the autoannouncer*. I don't expect to see that any time soon.

* If they absolutely must waffle, try waiting for the autoannouncer to complete first.

 

[Facing Back]

Ridiculous & if I’m honest offensive comment.

Why ridiculous and offensive?

Many guards are brilliant. They are visible, mobile, proactive, communicative and helpful. Many are none of these. WMT trains have their share of both

 

[newtownmgr]

Not at all. You hardly ever see a guard in the passenger accommodation south of Northampton on WMT trains, and it's always the same ones when you do.

I'll happily retract that when I see a guard in the passenger accommodation on every train I use, doing something useful rather than waffling over the autoannouncer.

As far as im aware they can’t waffle over the auto announcer. Any manual announcement will cut the auto out. As regards poor English, let’s hope you aren’t referring to the many conductors that originate from overseas. Auto announcers are limited in what they can do & some announcements regarding connections have to be done manually. I’m sure many conductors do go through but with 8 & 12 car formation actually get through the whole train maybe easier said than done. Especially if they have passenger assists to do or have to position themselves in a certain part of the train for certain stations. But I’m guessing you’re taking this into account with you’re accusations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==

Why ridiculous and offensive?

Many guards are brilliant. They are visible, mobile, proactive, communicative and helpful. Many are none of these. WMT trains have their share of both

Yes but appears to be tarring them all with the same brush!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as im aware they can’t waffle over the auto announcer. Any manual announcement will cut the auto out.

That's what I mean, yes. The autoannouncer is clear, concise and correct, and for those who have hearing disabilties everything it says is replicated in text form on the scrolling displays. If it's not correct, turn it off and do manual announcements, but if it is don't announce over the top of it.

As regards poor English, let’s hope you aren’t referring to the many conductors that originate from overseas.

Yes, I am, unfortunately. Clear, correct spoken English in an understandable accent should be required for people who may make safety critical communications, and it does seem WMT are lax in checking for this when employing people. A few (it is only a few) of WMT's guards do not speak clear and correct English. I'd concede for them to shut up and let the autoannouncer do its job though!

I don't give a monkey's about anyone's ethnicity or origin, but clear, correct spoken English to a very high standard is absolutely crucial for any safety-critical railway role, particularly one involving communication with passengers. There are several Bletchley guards whose English is neither clear nor correct.

Auto announcers are limited in what they can do & some announcements regarding connections have to be done manually.

Then wait until the autoannouncer has finished before making your announcement.

I’m sure many conductors do go through but with 8 & 12 car formation actually get through the whole train maybe easier said than done. Especially if they have passenger assists to do or have to position themselves in a certain part of the train for certain stations. But I’m guessing you’re taking this into account with you’re accusations.

Yes, I absolutely am. Do you use or work on WMT south of Northampton often? I'm guessing not, as your name seems to suggest you being in mid Wales. A ticket check is an utter rarity, perhaps one in every 20 journeys at best.

 

[newtownmgr]

That's what I mean, yes. The autoannouncer is clear, concise and correct, and for those who have hearing disabilties everything it says is replicated in text form on the scrolling displays. If it's not correct, turn it off and do manual announcements, but if it is don't announce over the top of it.



Yes, I am, unfortunately. Clear, correct spoken English in an understandable accent should be required for people who may make safety critical communications, and it does seem WMT are lax in checking for this when employing people. A few (it is only a few) of WMT's guards do not speak clear and correct English. I'd concede for them to shut up and let the autoannouncer do its job though!

I don't give a monkey's about anyone's ethnicity or origin, but clear, correct spoken English to a very high standard is absolutely crucial for any safety-critical railway role, particularly one involving communication with passengers. There are several Bletchley guards whose English is neither clear nor correct.



Then wait until the autoannouncer has finished before making your announcement.



Yes, I absolutely am. Do you use or work on WMT south of Northampton often? I'm guessing not, as your name seems to suggest you being in mid Wales. A ticket check is an utter rarity, perhaps one in every 20 journeys at best.

So you’re happy making a racist comment then. Think I’m done communicating with people like you! I’m not Welsh, I’m actually of German origin!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you’re happy making a racist comment then.

It's not racist, it's a statement of fact that some WMT guards (a very small number) cannot speak clear and correct English to the standards I would expect of a safety-critical customer-facing member of staff. I don't care where they're from, but I'm sure you'll agree that clarity is essential, or if you know you don't have it just let the autoannouncer do its work and don't cut it out to make your own less clear announcement.

With regards to the specific few guards concerned (there are maybe three or thereabouts I've come across, and like the ones who do tickets they're quite noticeable), I'm genuinely not confident they would be able to make a safety critical communication to a signaller and be understood first time, for instance.

I refer not to your origin, but to whether it's likely you use the south WCML very often?

 

[newtownmgr]

It's not racist, it's a statement of fact that some WMT guards (a very small number) cannot speak clear and correct English to the standards I would expect of a safety-critical customer-facing member of staff. I don't care where they're from, but I'm sure you'll agree that clarity is essential, or if you know you don't have it just let the autoannouncer do its work and don't cut it out to make your own less clear announcement.

With regards to the specific few guards concerned, I'm genuinely not confident they would be able to make a safety critical communication to a signaller and be understood first time, for instance.

I refer not to your origin, but to whether it's likely you use the south WCML very often?

Do 350’s have SDO? last i knew they didn’t only a facility to lock a whole unit out. Hence why guards may not be able to do Comercial duties as they will need to be in a cab for stations so as not to delay the train, as I’m sure if they were in the trains doing tickets & delayed the train that would lead to other complaints.
As regards communication skills they have to reach a required standard but they don’t speak to the signaller that’s the drivers responsibility.

Yes i use the WCML & have had no issues with any WMT or Avanti guard.

Obviously we aren’t going to agree & to be honest I’ve got more important things to do than debate with you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do 350’s have SDO? last i knew they didn’t only a facility to lock a whole unit out.

There are no short platforms south of Northampton in normal use other than Bushey northbound fast line which is very rarely used. All are at least 240m and so will take 12.350 without using manual SDO.

You are correct that UDS requires cab release but it isn't needed very often.

Hence why guards may not be able to do Comercial duties as they will need to be in a cab for stations so as not to delay the train, as I’m sure if they were in the trains doing tickets & delayed the train that would lead to other complaints.

This isn't the case. Dwells are generally quite long and the guards who do do tickets aren't routinely delaying things.

Obviously we aren’t going to agree & to be honest I’ve got more important things to do than debate with you!

We probably should end it here as it's a bit OT anyway.

 

[bramling]

As regards poor English, let’s hope you aren’t referring to the many conductors that originate from overseas.

Why not? In a role where communications can be safety-critical, poor English is a significant problem. Indeed it's a problem at my place, with numerous safety-related incidents having been caused because of it.

A good standard of spoken communication, as well as written, is a necessity. If any applicant falls short in this respect then there are of course options available to them to improve their skills.

 

[Facing Back]

So you’re happy making a racist comment then. Think I’m done communicating with people like you! I’m not Welsh, I’m actually of German origin!

My only comment on the Welsh is that I'm glad the rugby team has postponed their industrial action and I am looking forward to the game at the weekend.

Having spent last year working in Germany - Berlin - and many, many years of travelling, my opinion is that the standard of English in public transport is often significantly better than in the UK. The one interesting exception was the US, even China was better.

I don't believe that expecting a person providing public announcements to be able to deliver understandably is racist - I don't care what your ethnicity or origin is - I do care that your language, enunciation and accent are appropriate for your audience.

I've sat in a room with lawyers for both sides in a tribunal where somebody was removed from post because their English wasn't sufficient - the person worked on a helpdesk speaking to the public - and that was upheld. The same day we had a presentation where Geordie was the most trusted and Scouse the least trusted accent and to choose staff to make anouncements accordingly.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Yes, I absolutely am. Do you use or work on WMT south of Northampton often? I'm guessing not, as your name seems to suggest you being in mid Wales. A ticket check is an utter rarity, perhaps one in every 20 journeys at best.

My experience of the increased announcements / checks was in the Midlands, typically on the New Street - Crewe or Walsall-New Street-Wolves, so I'm not going to deny your experience may differ on a different part of the network.

 

[Stigy]

It'll have minimal impact, I'd have thought. Those who put feet on seats, vape on the train, hide ticketless in the toilets etc aren't suddenly going to be model members of society because of an announcement.

It probably won’t have an impact, you’re right. However, when prosecuting such cases, being able to evidence warnings helps cases.

 

[Sprinter107]

This is one of the newer announcements available on the 350 1/3/4s. It's manually used by conductors rather than automatically so you won't hear it often as it's rather long and covers quite a few things which are frowned upon which will be ignored by those doing so.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2023 ==


I find being a bit stricter easier if you've given such an announcement as you've already sown the seed of 'code of conduct' and if you're failing it after being reminded well it's now comply or off you pop.

I do now make much more informative announcements regarding ticketing given the potential high cost of failing to have correct tickets, better for passengers if I correct them than bumping into RPIs who PF them

The 172s also make the Code of Conduct announcement.