West Lothian buses

[overthewater]

I can see what you did, however the 26 never competed with any of the First or ECBs routes. While the x44 again it was never really part of the mix, What Im getting at is the number of buses per hour is lower than a few years ago, with Lothian getting all the passengers on fewer resources.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Interesting move to test the water?

While as others have said, this shows the prices being changed over the years has been well inflated, this would suggest that First are very concerned and worried about Lothian being there so surely this is a good thing for passangers. It will be interesting to see what Lothian do next... If First bring in a price discount, Lothian will have to follow suit, surely?

 

[In Focus]

While as others have said, this shows the prices being changed over the years has been well inflated, this would suggest that First are very concerned and worried about Lothian being there so surely this is a good thing for passangers. It will be interesting to see what Lothian do next... If First bring in a price discount, Lothian will have to follow suit, surely?

It's pretty obvious to everyone that both wont survive longterm and each has plenty to be "worried" about ,obviously First now have to up their game to attempt to keep the area, for Lothian it could be the most expensive ego trip ever if failure looms .
Price discounts during competition are always good for customers while it lasts.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

You say for Lothian it could be the most expensive ego trip but given First have shareholders who want their dividend and money from the company; Lothian, who run at a very nice profit, have a profitable arm with other ventures, have no real shareholders given its 91% CEC, so one might even suggest that First are not in the best of posisions to fight this for long, and given Lothian are digging in, one will walk and I honestly can't see it being Lothian. First will not want to be pushed out but shareholders will also be demanding something done. I honestly can see First talking to Lothian about a buy out (depot and some of fleet).

I think we will know more in the coming months as Green Arrow might be somthing special or First might shock everyone and annouce something new and unique. It will be interesting to see where this does go.

I think from the point of view of any passanger, having more buses, at cheaper prices is going to always be welcomed and the longer this lasts, the better for the passanger and without passangers, there would be no buses.

 

[In Focus]

You say for Lothian it could be the most expensive ego trip but given First have shareholders who want their dividend and money from the company; Lothian, who run at a very nice profit, have a profitable arm with other ventures, have no real shareholders given its 91% CEC, so one might even suggest that First are not in the best of posisions to fight this for long, and given Lothian are digging in, one will walk and I honestly can't see it being Lothian. First will not want to be pushed out but shareholders will also be demanding something done. I honestly can see First talking to Lothian about a buy out (depot and some of fleet).

I think we will know more in the coming months as Green Arrow might be somthing special or First might shock everyone and annouce something new and unique. It will be interesting to see where this does go.

I think from the point of view of any passanger, having more buses, at cheaper prices is going to always be welcomed and the longer this lasts, the better for the passanger and without passangers, there would be no buses.

Time shall tell .
Always fascinated at this Lothian can just spunk money without any consequences line .
Lothian do not like competition their answer is always to try and squeeze anything out and that is now applying to many other companies up to now in the city it has worked ,surprisingly no one like a McGills has gotten into the city and given it a serious go.
First have put a lot of eggs into this new London Rail link and yes shareholders may look for a dividend and they any cash in on other parts of the business or as you say they may decide enough enough with Lothian and go after parts of the city , I'd guess Edinburgh Airport may be high on that list of lucrative targets if Glasgows 500 is a barometer.
And I agree interesting times and since 1994 I've not seen so many empty buses in this area but for the limited amount of passengers it must be fantastic having a bus every 5 minutes. ...

 

[Big Ralphie]

Time shall tell .
Always fascinated at this Lothian can just spunk money without any consequences line .
Lothian do not like competition their answer is always to try and squeeze anything out and that is now applying to many other companies up to now in the city it has worked ,surprisingly no one like a McGills has gotten into the city and given it a serious go.
First have put a lot of eggs into this new London Rail link and yes shareholders may look for a dividend and they any cash in on other parts of the business or as you say they may decide enough enough with Lothian and go after parts of the city , I'd guess Edinburgh Airport may be high on that list of lucrative targets if Glasgows 500 is a barometer.
And I agree interesting times and since 1994 I've not seen so many empty buses in this area but for the limited amount of passengers it must be fantastic having a bus every 5 minutes. ...

Be interesting when money is started getting used for Edinburgh trams how it affects lothian future plans and how much money they continue to throw around at future plans.

 

[winston270twm]

You say for Lothian it could be the most expensive ego trip but given First have shareholders who want their dividend and money from the company; Lothian, who run at a very nice profit, have a profitable arm with other ventures, have no real shareholders given its 91% CEC, so one might even suggest that First are not in the best of posisions to fight this for long, and given Lothian are digging in, one will walk and I honestly can't see it being Lothian. First will not want to be pushed out but shareholders will also be demanding something done. I honestly can see First talking to Lothian about a buy out (depot and some of fleet).

I think we will know more in the coming months as Green Arrow might be somthing special or First might shock everyone and annouce something new and unique. It will be interesting to see where this does go.

I think from the point of view of any passanger, having more buses, at cheaper prices is going to always be welcomed and the longer this lasts, the better for the passanger and without passangers, there would be no buses.

Totally agree. There's zero chance of First Group buying Lothian out. First Group fares are 'typically' higher compared to other operators throughout the UK.

I don't think it's wise to slash weekly fares so drastically / so soon. If LCB then follow suit with a similar / the same weekly ticket pricing, then what? how much lower can First go next time around?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Time shall tell .
Always fascinated at this Lothian can just spunk money without any consequences line .
Lothian do not like competition their answer is always to try and squeeze anything out and that is now applying to many other companies up to now in the city it has worked ,surprisingly no one like a McGills has gotten into the city and given it a serious go.
First have put a lot of eggs into this new London Rail link and yes shareholders may look for a dividend and they any cash in on other parts of the business or as you say they may decide enough enough with Lothian and go after parts of the city , I'd guess Edinburgh Airport may be high on that list of lucrative targets if Glasgows 500 is a barometer.
And I agree interesting times and since 1994 I've not seen so many empty buses in this area but for the limited amount of passengers it must be fantastic having a bus every 5 minutes. ...

Don't think you're quite seeing this in the round.

Lothian are spending/investing a chunk of money - it's a strategy that has been agreed and signed off, however cockeyed you may believe it is. They will have factored in some substantial losses simply on variable run rate (fuel and drivers) though the capital spend is just that - capital spread over x years. Now, if the LCB business is losing £30k a week in two or three years time and First have dug in and aren't moving, then there will be consequences as the strategy won't have worked. You clearly believe that will be the case - you may be right but only in the fullness of time.

It is a bold move by Lothian - almost as bold as the move by First against Lothian that proved so costly in the long run (along with other factors, it should be noted). Lothian don't like competition - few people do, when it is visited upon them.

Meanwhile, First are digging in and despite the rumours that have abounded, there has been no move to initiate competition into Lothian's heartland or main operations as of yet. Instead, it's battening down the hatches, and working on the basis that if they lose £10k a week and LCB lose 3 times that, then eventually they will prevail as questions will be raised by Lothian's exec eventually. For First, they might view that sort of loss as being preferable to it being open season on them.

For Lothian, it's a case of shock and awe in that First will raise the white flag. For First, it's a case of starving the high cost competitor into submission. It's as simple as that.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Meanwhile, First are digging in and despite the rumours that have abounded, there has been no move to initiate competition into Lothian's heartland or main operations as of yet. Instead, it's battening down the hatches, and working on the basis that if they lose £10k a week and LCB lose 3 times that, then eventually they will prevail as questions will be raised by Lothian's exec eventually. For First, they might view that sort of loss as being preferable to it being open season on them.

For Lothian, it's a case of shock and awe in that First will raise the white flag. For First, it's a case of starving the high cost competitor into submission. It's as simple as that.

Jarvis is to make a speech on the 24th announcing their "big plans"....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Jarvis is to make a speech on the 24th announcing their "big plans"....

Indeed, and who knows what that could be? There's been feverish speculation on the Airport route, or various routes to the West of the city? Could it be something more leftfield, or just something more conventional (more WL stuff)? We shall see but as I said, we've not seen/heard anything as of yet and thus far, it has been a case of two strategies - one high risk, one more conservative. Will First do something more daring..... It's gonna be interesting whichever way it goes!

 

[Darklord8899]

Don't think you're quite seeing this in the round.

Lothian are spending/investing a chunk of money - it's a strategy that has been agreed and signed off, however cockeyed you may believe it is. They will have factored in some substantial losses simply on variable run rate (fuel and drivers) though the capital spend is just that - capital spread over x years. Now, if the LCB business is losing £30k a week in two or three years time and First have dug in and aren't moving, then there will be consequences as the strategy won't have worked. You clearly believe that will be the case - you may be right but only in the fullness of time.

It is a bold move by Lothian - almost as bold as the move by First against Lothian that proved so costly in the long run (along with other factors, it should be noted). Lothian don't like competition - few people do, when it is visited upon them.

Meanwhile, First are digging in and despite the rumours that have abounded, there has been no move to initiate competition into Lothian's heartland or main operations as of yet. Instead, it's battening down the hatches, and working on the basis that if they lose £10k a week and LCB lose 3 times that, then eventually they will prevail as questions will be raised by Lothian's exec eventually. For First, they might view that sort of loss as being preferable to it being open season on them.

For Lothian, it's a case of shock and awe in that First will raise the white flag. For First, it's a case of starving the high cost competitor into submission. It's as simple as that.

Well said! I agree with your take on the situation....
And said better than I could

 

[overthewater]

While as others have said, this shows the prices being changed over the years has been well inflated, this would suggest that First are very concerned and worried about Lothian being there so surely this is a good thing for passangers. It will be interesting to see what Lothian do next... If First bring in a price discount, Lothian will have to follow suit, surely?

No, Fares are not inflated, First and Lothian single fares on mid - longer distance are the same this the going rate, First weekly and Monthly tickets are cheaper than LCB, and LCB state its currents prices are what it believe can keep the company going. First have cut the prices under the current rate.

 

[In Focus]

it's a strategy that has been agreed and signed off,

Wonder who signed off £700,000 for an uninhabitable building ? That's not a strategy that's a desperate move to find premises . Operating out of portocabins and a community centre !! That's almost something First would have done a few years back...

 

[Big Ralphie]

Hard to believe that a well established company would be working out of porto cabins more like a new bus company just starting up there's obviously been no real forward planning but just deciding things as they go along.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wonder who signed off £700,000 for an uninhabitable building ? That's not a strategy that's a desperate move to find premises . Operating out of portocabins and a community centre !! That's almost something First would have done a few years back...

Hard to believe that a well established company would be working out of porto cabins more like a new bus company just starting up there's obviously been no real forward planning but just deciding things as they go along.

It happens and to larger firms than Lothian. One of my former employers had me working in a portacabin for 18 months and that was a £2bn business. There may have been a perfectly understandable and unforeseeable reason?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Funnily enough all of Lothian Country's social media leans on the side that LC are coming out on top whilst first are only keeping itss current passengers through the oldies being used to them or younger commuter who don't take the train prefer first weekly or monthly options.

When you purely look at the simple thought of the general people through social media who are traveling with LC it's becoming very apparent that indeed LB are gaining an effect from people in West Lothian that they have gained from the people in East Lothian.

Even though the general consensus of First Scotland East investing in newer vehicles of late, which indeed is a good thing, it doesn't seem to resonate with people in the same way that LC are receiving.

 

[Driver362]

30 mins to Broxburn are we living in the dark ages? I wonder why no one has tried Livingston - St johns H - Craighill - Almond South Road - East Calder - A71
Can you change the record ! ,same narrative every other post . It goes as follows




So what are the positives that LCB bring to the table? I would love to hear this. Fairs, fair...

No, Fares are not inflated, First and Lothian single fares on mid - longer distance are the same this the going rate, First weekly and Monthly tickets are cheaper than LCB, and LCB state its currents prices are what it believe can keep the company going. First have cut the prices under the current rate.

no sir they most certainly are not if say a trip to centre from loganlea is £1.20 cheaper in each direction with us you would say a swing of £2.40 is broadly similar ?? I would suggest not , so if they can afford to bring them down that much why were they charging so much in the first place , pretty "poor value" is it not ?

No, Fares are not inflated, First and Lothian single fares on mid - longer distance are the same this the going rate, First weekly and Monthly tickets are cheaper than LCB, and LCB state its currents prices are what it believe can keep the company going. First have cut the prices under the current rate.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Funnily enough all of Lothian Country's social media leans on the side that LC are coming out on top whilst first are only keeping itss current passengers through the oldies being used to them or younger commuter who don't take the train prefer first weekly or monthly options.

When you purely look at the simple thought of the general people through social media who are traveling with LC it's becoming very apparent that indeed LB are gaining an effect from people in West Lothian that they have gained from the people in East Lothian.

Even though the general consensus of First Scotland East investing in newer vehicles of late, which indeed is a good thing, it doesn't seem to resonate with people in the same way that LC are receiving.

While you bring a fair point you need to keep in mind bus companies (not just LC but all of them) remove negative comments. Generally speaking regardless of bus operator Social Media is not a good indicator of anything.

I assume you've seen the recent FSE post and the rather delightful replies to a certain comment regarding fleet age...

 

[overthewater]

no sir they most certainly are not if say a trip to centre from loganlea is £1.20 cheaper in each direction with us you would say a swing of £2.40 is broadly similar ?? I would suggest not , so if they can afford to bring them down that much why were they charging so much in the first place , pretty "poor value" is it not ?

Again the reason for that is the OAP passes, I would rather deal in daily, weekly and monthly. Also Fauldhouse or Blackridge to Livingston is the same price on both. That is all by n by as First has NOT brought down is single fares, in any shape or form.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

While you bring a fair point you need to keep in mind bus companies (not just LC but all of them) remove negative comments. Generally speaking regardless of bus operator Social Media is not a good indicator of anything.

I assume you've seen the recent FSE post and the rather delightful replies to a certain comment regarding fleet age...

I have just visited Facebook and had a gander, its not my preferred site but its was a good look-in none the less.

I think much of social media speaks louder than words in this time we live in, it'll become a one man race in WL and the way its slowly going I think the green goblins will eventually do to much damage to FSE to consider anything other than leaving the area.

It certainly won't be able to make any considerable dent in the cities intake for lothian, to many who are loyal to the long established LB whilst those who do travel with LC also gain access to the rest of Lothians mass of services in edi.. Including the tram, as an unofficial extension to the 275.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I have just visited Facebook and had a gander, its not my preferred site but its was a good look-in none the less.

I think much of social media speaks louder than words in this time we live in, it'll become a one man race in WL and the way its slowly going I think the green goblins will eventually do to much damage to FSE to consider anything other than leaving the area.

It certainly won't be able to make any considerable dent in the cities intake for lothian, to many who are loyal to the long established LB whilst those who do travel with LC also gain access to the rest of Lothians mass of services in edi.. Including the tram, as an unofficial extension to the 275.

I'm going to have to disagree with your in regards to social media. As for what operator will win, it's impossible to know. Really we can all say who we think will win but that's based off opinion rather than reality.

I think we all know First won't make any considerable dent in to Lothian's market within Edinburgh, I'm fairly sure Jarvis is aware of that too. However as others have said, First can probably get more out of Edinburgh than Lothian can in West Lothian.

 

[In Focus]

When you purely look at the simple thought of the general people through social media who are traveling with LC it's becoming very apparent that indeed LB are gaining an effect from people in West Lothian that they have gained from the people in East Lothian.

Social media is always a dangerous way to gauge numbers , LCB like Lothian certainly have a grasp of that side with only really positive being highlighted and any negatives quickly swept aside ,First on the other hand with this Shared Service and trying to operate their social media from Leeds is an absolute bomb scare with wrong information.

 

[In Focus]

sir they most certainly are not if say a trip to centre from loganlea is £1.20 cheaper in each direction with us you would say a swing of £2.40 is broadly similar ?? I would suggest not , so if they can afford to bring them down that much why were they charging so much in the first place , pretty "poor value" is it not

Single fare was always based on getting as much out of the concession scheme as possible ,even that now is about to fall flat on its arse if recent figures are anything to go by.
The value was always in the Day / Weekly / monthly and annual tickets.

 

[David 90825]

An article on the Bus & Coach website states that the new coaches will be used on a mix of both new and existing work.
https://www.route-one.net/articles/Operators/Will_Plaxton_kick_start_return_to_dual_purpose_

 

[overthewater]

Firstly it does sound there will get used on the X17 and X18, with a chance for a new service. Mr Hall said these new coaches are to specified to attract passengers from cars and trains; then why has it been taken out of Wester Inch? Where there was a higher % of these types of passengers? Also why is he going after a saturated market? Were still no close to improved links to Edinburgh parks or Edinburgh North, Plenty of car drivers here. People are not going to sit on a this coach for over 90mins... just because it has the same comfort as there cars, lets see coach and car are the same but the coach over the double the time.... First will keep its passengers because its cheap simple as.

Richard said about LE B8 "One is that as a tri-axle, it is too long for Lothian’s requirements;" that again makes no sense since He just brought a load of Tri-Axle, Maybe he doesn't want to pay for the real axle to turn? Stagecoach wanted to have some middle ground, Easy access yet coach feelling which if lothian wanted could have had the same seating...

Also why does he even need to mention fact of being able to find Second life's for these coaches? Stagecoach have plans to keep there for at least 8 -10 years how long does Lothian think there's will last 2?

From a business point of view, perhaps the most relevant of all is the ease of finding a second life for the Leopard Interurban. The lift is removable, and seats could be fitted into what is currently the wheelchair bay if PSVAR compliance is sacrificed, upping capacity from the current 49. Thanks to a flat gangway, there is also the scope to convert to a 3+2 layout.

Do there have no faith? also he fails to mention East Coast Buses subsidiary, has seen an increase after he cut back on the lothian routes.

This is all smoke and mirrors and things just don't add up.

Will Plaxton kick-start a return to dual-purpose?
Eight Plaxton Leopard Interurbans on Volvo B8R chassis have been built for Lothiancountry. The role for them, Lothian believes, will see the rebirth of dual-purpose vehicles, helped by ever-longer commutes

Key to Lothian’s requirement was the creation of a dual-purpose coach
More details have been revealed of the work undertaken by Plaxton to meet Lothian Buses’ requirements for the new Interurban variant of the Leopard coach body, mounted on Volvo B8R chassis.

The first eight 12.8m Leopard Interurbans will go into service with Lothiancountry at a date yet to be confirmed. They will be used on a mix of new and existing work, says MD Richard Hall.

Richard says that the operator already has plans for more of the type. Its Leopard Interurbans are specified to attract passengers from cars and trains; in Edinburgh in particular, that market has much low-hanging fruit, as property prices are driving commuters further from the city.

Although the low-entry Panther LE is an existing Plaxton coach offering for scheduled services, there are several reasons why Lothian did not opt for it, says Richard.

One is that as a tri-axle, it is too long for Lothian’s requirements; another is that the wide centre door on the Leopard Interurban will assist with rapid disembarkation of passengers. However, the Panther LE’s rear has been incorporated into the Leopard Interurban to allow placement of a full-width destination display.

“But key to the project was our desire to create a dual-purpose coach. The last true examples of that were based on Volvo B10M chassis. Ours and Plaxton’s task was to come up with a successor that fits the requirements of today’s society.”

Another reason that the Leopard Interurban was developed relates to this design brief. The Lothian Motorcoaches private hire and tour business, launched less than a year ago, has proven successful. If required, Lothiancountry’s Leopards could be used there if they are not required for other duties.

From a business point of view, perhaps the most relevant of all is the ease of finding a second life for the Leopard Interurban. The lift is removable, and seats could be fitted into what is currently the wheelchair bay if PSVAR compliance is sacrificed, upping capacity from the current 49. Thanks to a flat gangway, there is also the scope to convert to a 3+2 layout.

Design work neccessary

At the centre door, Plaxton has designed a four-step double-width staircase that is well lit. Additionally, the bodybuilder has installed down-facing spotlights at the bottom of the door panels. They only engage when the door is open, illuminating the floor immediately adjacent.

Wide centre doors conceal lift – and help with general disembarkation
A PLS lift is fitted at the centre door. Plaxton has been clever in how it is stowed when it is not in use; it sits entirely within a cabinet in the offside luggage bay, and hence is not exposed to water or salt.

In the cab, the dash area has been reconfigured to allow the fitment of Lothian’s farebox and cash vault. Its driver console is integrated adjacent to that, and above the windscreen is a monitor that displays next-stop information. A second is within the wheelchair bay adjacent to the centre door.

Care has been taken to ensure that the Leopard Interurbans include as much commonality from a passenger perspective as buses in the Lothian fleet.

The Brusa seats are finished in the same moquette pattern that has been adopted by Lothian, and the wood-effect flooring is shared with the operator’s Alexander Dennis (ADL) Enviro400XLB-bodied Volvo B8L double-deckers.

New dawn for interurban?

The Leopard Interurban has been designed to fulfil a task for Lothian, and that is to help it grow commuter services into Edinburgh.

The rail network around the Scottish capital already struggles to cope with demand. Richard says that the operator has seen significant growth at its East Coast Buses subsidiary, which operates into Edinburgh from dormitory towns and villages in East Lothian and beyond, because of that.

Providing an acceptable alternative to satisfy the many commuters who currently drive to Edinburgh will require a high-specification vehicle, and that is why Lothian insisted that the Leopard Interurban was customised to suit it, says Richard.

“People buy Audis and BMWs because they want quality. That is what we will be competing with and we must offer a comparable product.”

The Panther LE’s rear incorporated to allow space for full-width display
Plaxton’s viewpoint: Quality

Such a focus on quality is also something that continues to drive Plaxton, says ADL CEO Colin Robertson.

Since purchasing the Scarborough coachbuilder, ADL has invested significantly in product development. The Leopard Interurban marks the continuation of a period that has spawned the Panther LE, the Panorama double-decker and the addition of a 13.2m Elite option on B8R chassis.

“At Plaxton, our target market is operators that want an innovative and high-quality product,” he explains.

“It’s very simple. If we can our business with those of customers in that sphere of the market, we will be in a good place. We see an example of that ethos in the Leopard Interurban; it has been designed to be ‘recyclable’ through different applications during a 15-20-year lifespan.”

Colin adds that ADL as a group currently “cannot recruit engineers quickly enough,” suggesting that its current period of range expansion both at home and abroad is not over yet.

 

[GusB]

An article on the Bus & Coach website states that the new coaches will be used on a mix of both new and existing work.
https://www.route-one.net/articles/Operators/Will_Plaxton_kick_start_return_to_dual_purpose_

Interesting read. One thing that I did pick up on was that the centre door will "assist with rapid disembarkation of passengers". I suspect in some cases that may be slightly more rapid than anticipated, and with a few injuries along the way; those steps do look awfully steep.

If the B8RLE underframe/chassis/whateveritisthesedays is available in 2-axle form, would it not have been better to go for a "Leopard LE", or even a shorter version of the Panther LE? It would have eliminated the cost of installing a lift, and you could still have an exit doorway in the lower-floor section.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

I can see where they’re coming from with the interior design being like those of the rest of fleet but , those centre door stairs Are like an accident waiting to happen, No matter which operator they with . I would have thought they would’ve gone with the LE .

 

[In Focus]

An article on the Bus & Coach website states that the new coaches will be used on a mix of both new and existing work.
https://www.route-one.net/articles/Operators/Will_Plaxton_kick_start_return_to_dual_purpose_

Good luck deploying that ramp in Livingston centre ,its hard enough to even get into the Stances never mind deploying that.
They certainly look the part though externally.

 

[Swanny200]

So (and I know that this would probably make sense in the main Lothian thread too) does this mean that ADL is maybe trying to find favour with Lothian for more than just coaches, I know Wrightbus are simply buses and would probably not venture into coaches but with the addition of the new ADL stock for Edinburgh are we possibly looking at new ADL product being bought now instead of the favoured for many years Wrightbus and is there a potential for new buses being bought for the West Lothian side should it start turning a profit after all Falkirk is literally on West Lothian's doorstep

 

[winston270twm]

I can see where they’re coming from with the interior design being like those of the rest of fleet but , those centre door stairs Are like an accident waiting to happen, No matter which operator they with . I would have thought they would’ve gone with the LE .

Totally agree re: central doors, I can't see Plaxton selling many Leopard's to Lothian's central door spec. I'd have thought having the front section low floor using the B8RLE bus chassis, potentially with a larger extended low floor area to accommodate both a wheelchairs bay & a larger number of priority seats for would be more attractive / allow for faster boarding & alighting. I'd ditch the dual doors & set the current two bay luggage compartments back to in front of rear wheels and have the steps up in the coach saloon internal for the more able bodied passengers.