West highland line rolling stock solution (short term)

[InOban]

Lines such as the WHL are so heavily subsidised that they cannot justify new, special stock unless someone other than the taxpayer is going to pay for it.
170s are unsuitable because they don't have corridor connections and I have read that they wouldn't fit anyway though I've never seen why.
The modifications made to accommodate the 153s also meant, I understand, that the line would also allow 158s although they have never been formally cleared
The best we can hope for is that the ScoGov finds the money to hire the remaining voyagers, uses them to displace 170s and 158s from their remaining longer routes, uses the 170s to displace some 158s from, eg Fife services, thereby freeing up enough 158s for the WHL

 

[Iskra]

This is a speculative thread.

It's time Harry Potter moved forward a few decades and put steam behind him. Just get WCR to takeover the Fort William - Mallaig service. 2 HST units with a 3rd in reserve.

Make a feature of it. Of course Scotrail could do it, but WCR should produce a better quality heritage product.

No windows to hang out of, no doors to worry about, no sparks to set light to the scenery and relatively slow speed for safety.

If the Mexicans and Nigerians can make use of them why can't we?

I know, I know. Corrosion. Lack of spare parts to provide a reliable service in such a remote area. Just a thought.

Or Scotrail should run units with regular seating for regular folk, but then offer panorama cars in the same consist to steal the tourist revenue from West Coast at a premium price. West Coast have proved the market for the majority of the year, and get a lot of complaints so if you can offer a decent product, with the scenery on offer the trade is there for the taking.

I do wish GBR would get their act together and order some scenic carriages for TfW, Scotrail and Northern for the most scenic routes in one batch to create economies of scale.

 

[Bill57p9]

As for the 158s as a Fife commuter the 158s are done their only a couple of years younger than the 156s if northern is replacing their 15x fleets the scotrail need to as well. They were good and have done really well but it’s time for new stock

Whilst the 158s are barely younger than 156s they are worlds apart on terms of the passenger experience: air con, meaning no opening windows (except during ac failures) meaning a much quieter ride.

This thread is about short term stopgaps, not long term solutions.

The end doors of the 158s (and to be fair 156s) are much more suited to long distance journeys than short commuter operations, such as Fife.

Or Scotrail should run units with regular seating for regular folk, but then offer panorama cars in the same consist to steal the tourist revenue from West Coast at a premium price. West Coast have proved the market for the majority of the year, and get a lot of complaints so if you can offer a decent product, with the scenery on offer the trade is there for the taking.

Absolutely. Different products for different markets. I would suggest a commentary being available too.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is a pity that no electrification programme exists in the UK. We could then use corridors end stock displaced from the West Midlands.

Even if Wolverhampton- Shrewsbury was done that is enough units for the highlands

 

[Tester]

Or Scotrail should run units with regular seating for regular folk, but then offer panorama cars in the same consist to steal the tourist revenue from West Coast at a premium price. West Coast have proved the market for the majority of the year, and get a lot of complaints so if you can offer a decent product, with the scenery on offer the trade is there for the taking.

I do wish GBR would get their act together and order some scenic carriages for TfW, Scotrail and Northern for the most scenic routes in one batch to create economies of scale.

That's how it works with the Bernina Express in Switzerland.

You can travel at normal fares in part of the train, or pay a substantial reservation fee for the panoramic carriages.

Whilst I do it the cheapskate way, I note that the premium loadings tend to be good.

 

[Highlander1]

Lines such as the WHL are so heavily subsidised that they cannot justify new, special stock unless someone other than the taxpayer is going to pay for it.
170s are unsuitable because they don't have corridor connections and I have read that they wouldn't fit anyway though I've never seen why.
The modifications made to accommodate the 153s also meant, I understand, that the line would also allow 158s although they have never been formally cleared
The best we can hope for is that the ScoGov finds the money to hire the remaining voyagers, uses them to displace 170s and 158s from their remaining longer routes, uses the 170s to displace some 158s from, eg Fife services, thereby freeing up enough 158s for the WHL

170s don't fit because the don't have enough clearance between the doors and platform.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2026 ==

It is a pity that no electrification programme exists in the UK. We could then use corridors end stock displaced from the West Midlands.

Even if Wolverhampton- Shrewsbury was done that is enough units for the highlands

There is an electrification program in Scotland but WHL isn't a part of it as the costs would be astronomical and the line has very few services.

 

[43096]

In that case I can express my honest opinion on it which is that it is certifiable

Much like ScotRail’s management of the HST fleet.

The Class 156s are utterly unsuitable for such long journeys as the West Highland: even more so since their last refurbishment with the horrific ironing board seats. They need replacing.

 

[Bill57p9]

Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.

There is an electrification program in Scotland but WHL isn't a part of it as the costs would be astronomical and the line has very few services.

Absolutely, however I do believe the point was electrification of viable routes resulting in a cascade of self powered stock for those routes which could never economically justify it.

 

[Highlander1]

Absolutely, however I do believe the point was electrification of viable routes resulting in a cascade of self powered stock for those routes which could never economically justify it.

That's the plan now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2026 ==

Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.

Don't forget the cup of tea if you were on one of the few trains with a trolley (thankfully most WHL services now have catering again).

 

[Falcon1200]

Issue with HST would be the splitting/joining of the train at cairnlarnic for Oban and Mallaig.

The solution to that is a a return to the pre-Sprinter timetable of separate Oban and Fort William services. However, much as I would love to travel over the West Highland on an HST, it will not happen for the many reasons well explained above. When new stock is required it will have to be DMUs with corridor connections, and I doubt a bespoke design for the route could be justified.

 

[David M]

170s don't fit because the don't have enough clearance between the doors and platform.

This is what I don't understand as it implies both that the train is very, very close to the platform edge but, also, a step UP from the carriage to the platform as opposed to a step down. I have never encountered a step up anywhere so what station(s) are an issue?

 

[Russel]

Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.

Has that idea been dropped now then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.

That's because a dogbox with arguably the worst seats ever fitted to the things in 2+2 layout with a load of bicycles isn't, unsurprisingly, a premium environment. It's like asking for a tenner to sit in a bike shed, and the marketing point of "your bike might get nicked, so pay a tenner so you can see it" isn't exactly something that gives good publicity.

Think 2+1, panoramic windows*, free tea/coffee and the likes and you might be getting somewhere near the kind of thing people would pay extra for.

158s aren't bad to be fair in this regard and the Inverness sets are quite nice. These are probably the best thing to get over there in the short to medium term. While Northern might be after them too, the TfW sets basically have the same interior as the Inverness sets so would also work. If there remain clearance issues then just get the work done, it'll need doing at some point!

* 170s, while the gangways are mentioned as an issue, are basically panoramic due to the large windows, full alignment and tapered body shape.

 

[bleeder4]

The solution to that is a a return to the pre-Sprinter timetable of separate Oban and Fort William services. However, much as I would love to travel over the West Highland on an HST, it will not happen for the many reasons well explained above. When new stock is required it will have to be DMUs with corridor connections, and I doubt a bespoke design for the route could be justified.

You can do WHL on an HST, but you'd need to go on one of the LSL "West Highland Pullman" tours. I've done them several times myself. They're expensive but well worth it. Next one is last weekend of March, picking up from Rugby through to Lancaster, before proceeding to Fort William.

 

[TheGrew]

This is what I don't understand as it implies both that the train is very, very close to the platform edge but, also, a step UP from the carriage to the platform as opposed to a step down. I have never encountered a step up anywhere so what station(s) are an issue?

I wonder if it might be more cost-effective and offer better long-term value to modify the infrastructure rather than the trains so the WHL can use rolling stock more abundant in other parts of the network. Whilst 170s might make sense now, in 30 years we might be looking at CAF Civity variant getting cascaded.

 

[3RDGEN]

The west Highland line, and all rural Scottish lines like it should get unique stock which is tailored to these routes. Not castaways that are planned to be withdrawn elsewhere.

As per the Transport Scotland Plan "https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan/" that is their intention, go to page 40 of the document and the map for 2035 shows the plan is for "Alternative Traction" for the FNL, WHL and Ayr/Girvan - Stranraer routes. Finance permitting they maybe some form of Scenic/Tourist units specifically for those routes however 2035 is optimistic.

With regards to short term fixes there's the TfW 158's perhaps, if they are ever released, the 175's sat spare for 18 months and ScotRail could have taken them for the WHL / FNL routes as a ten year stop gap to 2035, they didn't so presumably they expect the 156/158's to get them to 2035ish. Electrification of East Kilbride releases 156's so that reduces pressure on the fleet and allows capacity increases in the summer months if ScotRail wishes.

 

[Russel]

As per the Transport Scotland Plan "https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan/" that is their intention, go to page 40 of the document and the map for 2035 shows the plan is for "Alternative Traction" for the FNL, WHL and Ayr/Girvan - Stranraer routes. Finance permitting they maybe some form of Scenic/Tourist units specifically for those routes however 2035 is optimistic.

With regards to short term fixes there's the TfW 158's perhaps, if they are ever released, the 175's sat spare for 18 months and ScotRail could have taken them for the WHL / FNL routes as a ten year stop gap to 2035, they didn't so presumably they expect the 156/158's to get them to 2035ish. Electrification of East Kilbride releases 156's so that reduces pressure on the fleet and allows capacity increases in the summer months if ScotRail wishes.

Aren't Northern or GWR already eyeing up the TFW 158s?

 

[Highlander1]

Has that idea been dropped now then?

Yes that's been dropped

 

[Deepgreen]

Issue with HST would be the splitting/joining of the train at cairnlarnic for Oban and Mallaig.
HSTs would require a lot of additional shunting unless the HST can be run with an engine at one end and DVT or similar

"Cairnlarnic" isn't a place, but it should be!

 

[Highlander1]

As per the Transport Scotland Plan "https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan/" that is their intention, go to page 40 of the document and the map for 2035 shows the plan is for "Alternative Traction" for the FNL, WHL and Ayr/Girvan - Stranraer routes. Finance permitting they maybe some form of Scenic/Tourist units specifically for those routes however 2035 is optimistic.

With regards to short term fixes there's the TfW 158's perhaps, if they are ever released, the 175's sat spare for 18 months and ScotRail could have taken them for the WHL / FNL routes as a ten year stop gap to 2035, they didn't so presumably they expect the 156/158's to get them to 2035ish. Electrification of East Kilbride releases 156's so that reduces pressure on the fleet and allows capacity increases in the summer months if ScotRail wishes.

That action plan has kicked down the line. Latest plan is cascade existing diesel trains, which means class 158 and 170.

Chapter 5: Rural | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

 

[Failed Unit]

Of course ScotRail have previously tried the "premium supplement" model on the WHL, however paying a tenner for the privilege of sitting in a dogbox with the same standard of seating but with a map and the ability to watch your bike, didn't really catch on.


Absolutely, however I do believe the point was electrification of viable routes resulting in a cascade of self powered stock for those routes which could never economically justify it.

Correct that is what I was thinking of. There are a lot of routes in the West Midlands that have stock that could be cascaded to routes such as the West Highland that would never justify. We have many speculative threads, but there are many routes around the major cities that release stock to cascade elsewhere. The 172s could be perfect the line.

 

[3RDGEN]

That action plan has kicked down the line. Latest plan is cascade existing diesel trains, which means class 158 and 170.

Chapter 5: Rural | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

'

The dates are pushed out but 156's replaced by 158's is the only practical stop gap option in the next few years and the 158's will not go much past mid 2030's. The 170's offer a longer stop gap option but as already mentioned there not a good fit for the WHL, lack of gangways for catering and three cars isn't adequate for peak summer services. You would need to either run more services or run six cars requiring more of the Oban and FW/Mallaig services to run separately both options mean a rework of the timetable and then your into extra traincrew and infrastructure changes with the costs just escalating. (170's for the FNL's is certainly an option.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the 222s result in spare 170s, could 170s go to the Far North and the Inverness 158s move to the WHL work? It's not a long term solution but it'd do us ten years or so at least. And they'd still be able to work with the 153s if the cycle capacity is desirable.

 

[Highlander1]

If the 222s result in spare 170s, could 170s go to the Far North and the Inverness 158s move to the WHL work? It's not a long term solution but it'd do us ten years or so at least. And they'd still be able to work with the 153s if the cycle capacity is desirable.

The 222s won't result in spare 170s. There's only 22 of them to replace 25 HSTs. We likely won't see anything being cascaded before the BEMU fleet is introduced

 

[Killingworth]

The 222s won't result in spare 170s. There's only 22 of them to replace 25 HSTs. We likely won't see anything being cascaded before the BEMU fleet is introduced

Just out of curiosity, how many HSTs are actually in service each day? I've had the impression that it's fewer than originally expected and 170s are covering the shortfall.

Which then begs the question, how reliable will another recycled fleet of ageing trains turn out to be in a different working environment with new servicing arrangements?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 222s won't result in spare 170s. There's only 22 of them to replace 25 HSTs. We likely won't see anything being cascaded before the BEMU fleet is introduced

Aren't the HSTs diagrammed pretty slackly, though, due to their woeful reliability? The 222s should be able to be worked much harder.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2026 ==

Which then begs the question, how reliable will another recycled fleet of ageing trains turn out to be in a different working environment with new servicing arrangements?

22x are mid-life and pretty reliable. They'd have to seriously screw things up for them to be as bad as the HSTs.

 

[Failed Unit]

Aren't the HSTs diagrammed pretty slackly, though, due to their woeful reliability? The 222s should be able to be worked much harder.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2026 ==



22x are mid-life and pretty reliable. They'd have to seriously screw things up for them to be as bad as the HSTs.

That is what another thread is saying. I am sure I have seen somewhere there are 19 diagrams. which should be enough for 22 sets.

 

[Russel]

Which then begs the question, how reliable will another recycled fleet of ageing trains turn out to be in a different working environment with new servicing arrangements?

The Meridians are much younger and if anything like the Voyagers, pretty bulletproof when looked after.

 

[Highlander1]

Just out of curiosity, how many HSTs are actually in service each day? I've had the impression that it's fewer than originally expected and 170s are covering the shortfall.

Which then begs the question, how reliable will another recycled fleet of ageing trains turn out to be in a different working environment with new servicing arrangements?

There's 16/17 HST diagrams a day. The tender for their replacement specified 19 diagrams a day. The two released 170s will likely be used to help with capacity issues in Fife and the Borders.

 

[Falcon1200]

You can do WHL on an HST, but you'd need to go on one of the LSL "West Highland Pullman" tours.

That would certainly be a lovely trip, but without the flexibility of regular timetabled services!

I can't help thinking that specialised tourist units for the WHL, and a handful of other lines, is a non-starter, given their likely cost, and the lack of interworking on other routes.