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West Coast Mainline:Severe Problems
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Mintona
Established Member
Precisely. I can't help feel that NR were "damned if they did, damned if they didn't" on this one.
That's how it pretty much is!
87015
Established Member
Don't know, could have dropped the VHF back to May if they needed to IMO without too many riots presuming the could have paid off VT/DfT to agree. Potentially shades of Railtrack corner-cutting here which is more worrying.
its pretty poor whats happened, but not all network rails fault
one thing i can say is although people will be disrupted as they have booked tickets etc, virgin still ran many services through this disruption, and when you consider virgin is running more trains since late december anyway it cant be that much different from the previous timetable?
one thing i can say is although people will be disrupted as they have booked tickets etc, virgin still ran many services through this disruption, and when you consider virgin is running more trains since late december anyway it cant be that much different from the previous timetable?
The Planner
Veteran Member
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And got XC, Freightliner, DB Schenker, Arriva, LM, DRS, Northern, TPE and every other TOC/FOC that it affected to agree. It wasnt just Virgin that had its timetable changed. It wouldnt have worked, the DfT would have demanded some sort of implementation.
I drive past Hemel station if I'm not going in by train. I've cancelled my season ticket, with the view of driving more now.
I saw Routemasters - yes, old London Routemasters being dragged out on service to help LM. Desperate times, desperate measures...
I saw Routemasters - yes, old London Routemasters being dragged out on service to help LM. Desperate times, desperate measures...
Cheaper copper, insufficient testing.
Also the effect of cold on the carbon on the pantograph on the loco. Maybe the effects on the panto of the 390's are different to the cl91/90?
Thing is, the pendos have been running for several years now, I would have thought these problems would have come up before. I don't really think an extra 2/3 trains on the fast line makes much difference and 10 trains on the fast lines is about less than 1/2 of capacity. The WCML is nowhere near as busy as the GEML...
I suspect the article about the 'rushed job', is as much speculation as my vandalism theory.
I suspect the article about the 'rushed job', is as much speculation as my vandalism theory.
so since the cabinet have now experienced what a shambles the railway system is, will there now be some form of intervention by Hoon, Adonis & Co ?
Can anyone throw light on how much pressure was put on riltrack by the govt to get the WCML upgrade done by Decmber 2008, rather than May 2009 ?
Can anyone throw light on how much pressure was put on riltrack by the govt to get the WCML upgrade done by Decmber 2008, rather than May 2009 ?
Gerald Fiennes
Member
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Although VT were indeed last year quite wisely suggesting that VHF was pushed back until May or thereabouts, it's a big leap to say that these failures are a result of the new timetable. LM has reportedly been having some problems with its Desiro pantographs lately and the long cold spell may also be a factor. The key thing is to get the route back, even with a TSR, as quickly as possible. Railways are good at moving large volumes of people quickly; buses are not!
It think the sad part about it is it gives the railway's usual critics ammunition for their one sided arguments, forgetting the M25 is closed with crashes most days and rail is usually the most punctual and reliable form of transport - despite the occasional slip up - often forgotten by the media bleating.
I've already seen the usual crap spouted that the railway is a 19th century invention and this was bound to happen - forgetting so are telephones and fuel cells. And its the most efficient and speedy way of moving large numbers of people in dense conurbations, in an energy efficient way, so its more relevant than ever.
In fact the LNWR Jumbos were running trains at Motorway speeds before cars were even invented, and at the turn of the 20th century the Great Eastern Railway Jazz service consisted of running 24 steam trains per hour, carrying 1200 passengers in 15 coach trains every 2 1/2 minutes on each running line - all on semaphore signalling with sykes lock and block out of Liverpool street! Something the M1 has never matched.
I've already seen the usual crap spouted that the railway is a 19th century invention and this was bound to happen - forgetting so are telephones and fuel cells. And its the most efficient and speedy way of moving large numbers of people in dense conurbations, in an energy efficient way, so its more relevant than ever.
In fact the LNWR Jumbos were running trains at Motorway speeds before cars were even invented, and at the turn of the 20th century the Great Eastern Railway Jazz service consisted of running 24 steam trains per hour, carrying 1200 passengers in 15 coach trains every 2 1/2 minutes on each running line - all on semaphore signalling with sykes lock and block out of Liverpool street! Something the M1 has never matched.
PhilipW
Member
Does anyone have an update as of Thursday morning. There has been nothing on the news so I assume that all 4 lines are back and operating normally.
andylloyd
Member
Wire problems now reported in Atherstone.
Services delayed bby upto 50 mins.
Here we go again
Services delayed bby upto 50 mins.
Here we go again
'London Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Crewe, Liverpool Lime Street
TOC(s) Affected London Midland, Virgin Trains
Description
Because of overhead wire problems in the Atherstone area, journeys may be delayed by up to 50 minutes'
Hmn, very strange, especially as the WCML has hardly suffered from failures like that even when the wires were 40 years old or more. Most of it now is 2-4 years. The only other thing I can think of is there has been some massive oversight of some kind, in which case NR should cease to exist.
'NETWORK Rail bosses were in the dock today over a string of failures which have brought Britain's busiest railway to its knees.
A major investigation is under way into how overhead power lines have repeatedly been brought down in the past week.
There was still chaos today as Virgin Trains cancelled services to and from Euston in the aftermath of yesterday's fiasco, which saw 100,000 people delayed or stranded.
The chairman of the influential Commons Transport Select Committee said she would consider holding an inquiry into the failings, which came just after the £9 billion publicly-funded upgrade of the line was completed.
Louise Ellman MP condemned NR's failures as "unacceptable" and said she was keen to grill Network Rail bosses about the catalogue of problems.
"It's totally unacceptable that following the multi-billion-pound upgrade, passengers are once again left stranded," the Labour MP told the Standard.
"This seems to be a series of serious incidents with no rational explanation. The public deserves to have the answers. I will be considering asking Network Rail to give an account of themselves."'
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23614501-details/article.do?ito=newsnow&
TOC(s) Affected London Midland, Virgin Trains
Description
Because of overhead wire problems in the Atherstone area, journeys may be delayed by up to 50 minutes'
Hmn, very strange, especially as the WCML has hardly suffered from failures like that even when the wires were 40 years old or more. Most of it now is 2-4 years. The only other thing I can think of is there has been some massive oversight of some kind, in which case NR should cease to exist.
'NETWORK Rail bosses were in the dock today over a string of failures which have brought Britain's busiest railway to its knees.
A major investigation is under way into how overhead power lines have repeatedly been brought down in the past week.
There was still chaos today as Virgin Trains cancelled services to and from Euston in the aftermath of yesterday's fiasco, which saw 100,000 people delayed or stranded.
The chairman of the influential Commons Transport Select Committee said she would consider holding an inquiry into the failings, which came just after the £9 billion publicly-funded upgrade of the line was completed.
Louise Ellman MP condemned NR's failures as "unacceptable" and said she was keen to grill Network Rail bosses about the catalogue of problems.
"It's totally unacceptable that following the multi-billion-pound upgrade, passengers are once again left stranded," the Labour MP told the Standard.
"This seems to be a series of serious incidents with no rational explanation. The public deserves to have the answers. I will be considering asking Network Rail to give an account of themselves."'
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23614501-details/article.do?ito=newsnow&
Ascot
Established Member
For Chaz's next trick he will work out Metroland's conspiracy theory on the OHLE.
I have no specific theory, or information, except that it could be someone with a grudge against the railway. Remember the chap in the Midlands who went round vandalising signalling equipment?
Not sure I buy the rush job, increased traffic or speeds, because:
1) Pendos have been running at higher speeds for some years.
2) Since the new year, the line has hardly had the full timetable with the disruption caused by third parties. Even so, in previous busy periods it would have flagged up problems. Other lines are much busier than parts of the WCML and have no problems.
3) Even if it was a rush job, it doesn't really explain why the wires have all suddenly started coming down now, problems would have been flagged up before, by say the OHL measuring train.
4) The cold might have some part to play, especially if older brittle components have been left in. (I have no evidence they have!). But other lines, such as the GEML or the Manchester-Crewe line would have had more problems with the wires being older.
5) WCML OHL has traditionally been reliable, the MK1 catenary design is quite solid and the 40 year old wires have mostly been replaced. The ECML has always suffered as the masts were so far apart to save money.
It could be the problems are just a set of bad components, or some design oversight- but again, surely these problems would have been flagged?
I just think its odd, as I have never seen OHL fail so frequently, especially compared with lines that have higher traffic elsewhere here and in the world. Whatever the causes, it will be interesting to find out.
Not sure I buy the rush job, increased traffic or speeds, because:
1) Pendos have been running at higher speeds for some years.
2) Since the new year, the line has hardly had the full timetable with the disruption caused by third parties. Even so, in previous busy periods it would have flagged up problems. Other lines are much busier than parts of the WCML and have no problems.
3) Even if it was a rush job, it doesn't really explain why the wires have all suddenly started coming down now, problems would have been flagged up before, by say the OHL measuring train.
4) The cold might have some part to play, especially if older brittle components have been left in. (I have no evidence they have!). But other lines, such as the GEML or the Manchester-Crewe line would have had more problems with the wires being older.
5) WCML OHL has traditionally been reliable, the MK1 catenary design is quite solid and the 40 year old wires have mostly been replaced. The ECML has always suffered as the masts were so far apart to save money.
It could be the problems are just a set of bad components, or some design oversight- but again, surely these problems would have been flagged?
I just think its odd, as I have never seen OHL fail so frequently, especially compared with lines that have higher traffic elsewhere here and in the world. Whatever the causes, it will be interesting to find out.
WCML did have old relay based control systems at Willesden, Rugby, Crewe and Cathcart. This has now been centralised, and the mimic switch panels have been replaced by SCADA - probably supplied by people like Transmitton, who also supply national grid etc
SCADA is computer based system for electrical control is simply remote switching of the circuit breakers that divide up OHL sections, separated by neutral sections. While some smaller switches are remotely operated, most localised switching is done by hand.
There's nothing especially different about remote switching on SCADA compared to relay based system in terms of electrical supply or reliability. The electrical step down is done with transformers at feeder stations, and OHL supply is really a matter of taking current off those transformer windings, via circuit breakers, across bus bars and onto the OHL wire, returned via one of the running rails, helped by booster transformers and back to the feeder station and national grid.
There is usually some electronics at feeder stations to stop certain electrical frequencies getting back into the grid from modern locomotives which tend to have electronic control rather than tap changers. But the class 90s have these sorts of systems and have been running for years.
The only other change is the conversion to 25-50kv auto transformers.
I've just checked, Transmitton did win the contract, at least on the northern part (currently with no problems) here is the press release
http://www.processingtalk.com/news/tra/tra127.html
SCADA is computer based system for electrical control is simply remote switching of the circuit breakers that divide up OHL sections, separated by neutral sections. While some smaller switches are remotely operated, most localised switching is done by hand.
There's nothing especially different about remote switching on SCADA compared to relay based system in terms of electrical supply or reliability. The electrical step down is done with transformers at feeder stations, and OHL supply is really a matter of taking current off those transformer windings, via circuit breakers, across bus bars and onto the OHL wire, returned via one of the running rails, helped by booster transformers and back to the feeder station and national grid.
There is usually some electronics at feeder stations to stop certain electrical frequencies getting back into the grid from modern locomotives which tend to have electronic control rather than tap changers. But the class 90s have these sorts of systems and have been running for years.
The only other change is the conversion to 25-50kv auto transformers.
I've just checked, Transmitton did win the contract, at least on the northern part (currently with no problems) here is the press release
http://www.processingtalk.com/news/tra/tra127.html
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Mintona
Established Member
Bridge bash between Rugby and Milton Keynes, all trains via Northampton, delays expected. On top of the wire problems at Atherstone.
It appears at least one of the failures has been put down to 'The wrong bit of kit'
'Meanwhile Network Rail has launched an investigation into why power lines at Wembley, Watford and Bletchley failed within days of each other.
The fault at Rugby has already been put down to "the wrong bit of kit" being fitted to the overhead lines during routine maintenance work.
Commerce leaders voiced anger at the shambles which engulfed rail passengers on one of the country's key arteries, triggering fresh criticism of Network Rail.
"Businesses have lost a staggering £38 million in just three days because Network Rail have again failed to adequately deliver," said David Frost, director general of the British Chambers of Commerce. '
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5469285.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084
It also appears a failure at Nuneaton was down to contractors
Network Rail today denied that a spate of overhead power line failures on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) was the fault of the line's recently-completed £9bn upgrade.
Over the past six days the WCML has suffered five separate incidents of power lines coming down, causing heavy delays for thousands of passengers.
The most recent took place at 9pm last night in Kenton, Hertfordshire, when powerlines fell from their catenary to strike a Virgin Trains Pendolino service, forcing the cancellation of all trains to and from London Euston until 10am this morning.
Reports by the BBC have suggested that the successive faults may be linked to the higher speeds trains are able to travel on the line thanks to the WCML upgrade.
However, a Network Rail spokesman denied this, telling NCE that all five failures were being treated as separate incidents,with no underlying cause evident.
Prior to last night's incident, the WCML had be closed last Friday due to a light aircraft crashing in to overhead power cables in Staffordshire. This was followed by powerlines falling on to the track in Watford in the early hours of Monday morning, plus lines coming down in Nuneaton, Warwickshire and Bletchley, Buckinghamshire on Tuesday.
The causes of the failures in Watford, Bletchley and Kenton are as yet unknown to Network Rail investigators.
However, the track operator is blaming (as yet unnamed) electrical contractors for the failure at Nuneaton, who were in the process of isolating the overhead lines for maintenance.
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/2009/01/n...l;jsessionid=95FFFCC182DBB8255CEDD46709EC5349
'Meanwhile Network Rail has launched an investigation into why power lines at Wembley, Watford and Bletchley failed within days of each other.
The fault at Rugby has already been put down to "the wrong bit of kit" being fitted to the overhead lines during routine maintenance work.
Commerce leaders voiced anger at the shambles which engulfed rail passengers on one of the country's key arteries, triggering fresh criticism of Network Rail.
"Businesses have lost a staggering £38 million in just three days because Network Rail have again failed to adequately deliver," said David Frost, director general of the British Chambers of Commerce. '
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5469285.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=797084
It also appears a failure at Nuneaton was down to contractors
Network Rail today denied that a spate of overhead power line failures on the West Coast Main Line (WCML) was the fault of the line's recently-completed £9bn upgrade.
Over the past six days the WCML has suffered five separate incidents of power lines coming down, causing heavy delays for thousands of passengers.
The most recent took place at 9pm last night in Kenton, Hertfordshire, when powerlines fell from their catenary to strike a Virgin Trains Pendolino service, forcing the cancellation of all trains to and from London Euston until 10am this morning.
Reports by the BBC have suggested that the successive faults may be linked to the higher speeds trains are able to travel on the line thanks to the WCML upgrade.
However, a Network Rail spokesman denied this, telling NCE that all five failures were being treated as separate incidents,with no underlying cause evident.
Prior to last night's incident, the WCML had be closed last Friday due to a light aircraft crashing in to overhead power cables in Staffordshire. This was followed by powerlines falling on to the track in Watford in the early hours of Monday morning, plus lines coming down in Nuneaton, Warwickshire and Bletchley, Buckinghamshire on Tuesday.
The causes of the failures in Watford, Bletchley and Kenton are as yet unknown to Network Rail investigators.
However, the track operator is blaming (as yet unnamed) electrical contractors for the failure at Nuneaton, who were in the process of isolating the overhead lines for maintenance.
http://www.nce.co.uk/news/2009/01/n...l;jsessionid=95FFFCC182DBB8255CEDD46709EC5349
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It is quite amazing how many incidents there have been over the past few days! Ill reserve my judgement for the time being as to the cause but I will say however that it is not always NR's fault. The have been a few incidents round this way over the last couple of years that were due to dodgy pans.
voyagerdude220
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2005
- Messages
- 4,262
As part of my 1,276 mile bash last Friday, I walked from 390044 to 390038, via the Concourse, between platforms 4 and 12, and thanks to the fact that my Glasgow Pendo was already boarding, I managed a non-stop gentle walk, and felt very impressed by the quietness of the concourse, compared to pre-VHF timetable standards (My Pendo arrived into Euston at 08:08)
I don't know whether it was simply a case of passengers being able to board Pendolinos sooner, or if it was a quiet time, but my Pendo was very busy in coaches H,J and K.. it didn't stop me having coach G literally to myself though all the way until Lancaster though!
What I can't understand is that after 15 December 2008 for two weeks everything was working relatively well on the Birmingham - Euston line - with 3tph running with little delay and I think the same on the Euston to Manchester!?!.
It all seems to have happened in January - which is why I don't buy blaming increases in speeds or more trains!
It all seems to have happened in January - which is why I don't buy blaming increases in speeds or more trains!
It has been pointed pout elsewhere that the Panchex alarms are apparently going off more often recently, so could there be an interaction between poor quality Pantograph carbons (due to increased wear etc in colder weather) and cold wires?
Looks like a lot of older components cracked, left in from the orginal electrification or things were installed improperly.
A spokesman for Network Rail denied suggestions that the line's decade-long, £9bn overhaul, completed last month, had left the route susceptible to problems and that it could not cope with the increased traffic it was carrying.
He said the Watford incident had been caused by metal fatigue in a screw, the Bletchley problems by a snapped electrical wire, and the Wembley failure by an incorrectly installed glass-fibre rod.
"They are unrelated, different cases and have nothing to do with increased traffic or new timetables," he said. "However lame it may sound, it does look like a series of unrelated incidents."
The rail minister, Andrew Adonis, is known to have been watching the west coast upgrade closely. He is understood to have sought and received guarantees from Network Rail that there would be no problems on the revamped route.
Some rail industry insiders believe the latest infrastructure breakdowns will have tested his patience with Network Rail.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/09/network-rail
Yesterday's overhead line failure took place at Atherstone, Warwickshire, after a steel brace cracked.
It was the fifth to take place on the line in the past week and led to delays of up to 70 minutes as trains had to be rerouted.
Network Rail's problems worsened when a lorry hit a bridge near Rugby, closing the line for about 40 minutes.
This weekend's exhaustive check preliminary investigations which have failed to find a common cause for the overhead line failures.
Network Rail has discovered that an installation error was responsible for the power failure at Wembley, north London.
Metal fatigue is being held for the failures of components at Bletchley and Watford.
Network Rail's difficulties have been worsened by the age of some of the overhead cables, some of which were installed just after the war , while others date back to the 1970s
But the technology is still considered more robust than using an electrified third rail, which is even more vulnerable to snow, ice and leaf fall.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...in-Line-hit-by-seventh-day-of-disruption.html
A spokesman for Network Rail denied suggestions that the line's decade-long, £9bn overhaul, completed last month, had left the route susceptible to problems and that it could not cope with the increased traffic it was carrying.
He said the Watford incident had been caused by metal fatigue in a screw, the Bletchley problems by a snapped electrical wire, and the Wembley failure by an incorrectly installed glass-fibre rod.
"They are unrelated, different cases and have nothing to do with increased traffic or new timetables," he said. "However lame it may sound, it does look like a series of unrelated incidents."
The rail minister, Andrew Adonis, is known to have been watching the west coast upgrade closely. He is understood to have sought and received guarantees from Network Rail that there would be no problems on the revamped route.
Some rail industry insiders believe the latest infrastructure breakdowns will have tested his patience with Network Rail.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/09/network-rail
Yesterday's overhead line failure took place at Atherstone, Warwickshire, after a steel brace cracked.
It was the fifth to take place on the line in the past week and led to delays of up to 70 minutes as trains had to be rerouted.
Network Rail's problems worsened when a lorry hit a bridge near Rugby, closing the line for about 40 minutes.
This weekend's exhaustive check preliminary investigations which have failed to find a common cause for the overhead line failures.
Network Rail has discovered that an installation error was responsible for the power failure at Wembley, north London.
Metal fatigue is being held for the failures of components at Bletchley and Watford.
Network Rail's difficulties have been worsened by the age of some of the overhead cables, some of which were installed just after the war , while others date back to the 1970s
But the technology is still considered more robust than using an electrified third rail, which is even more vulnerable to snow, ice and leaf fall.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...in-Line-hit-by-seventh-day-of-disruption.html
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