West Coast Franchise

[Zoe]

But the turbo's are as off the shelf as any DMU, but XC can't (and others) can't extend them.

Pendolinos were already available before the 390s were built. The new coaches will be 390 coaches, not any other EMU coaches. As far as I know the Voyagers were not off the shelf, Virgin basically said "We want a 125 mph DMU" and so Bombardier built the Voyagers for them. In theory you could restart the Voyager production line I would have thought but I understand the designed for the Voyagers have been thrown away so this is no longer possible. Throwing away the designs would seem a bit short sighted but as the train was built specifically for one purpose they clearly thought no more would ever be built.

 

[Failed Unit]

Look at the turbo history.

165. --> 168 --> 170 --> 172

You can't get more off the shef than that, coupled with the electrostars.

Are you confusing the turbo with the 22xs as the turbos can't be extended. What you say about the 22x is correct of course, maybe worse that the 221s are not comparable with the 222s

 

[Zoe]

So if the designs are still available, why not just restart the 170 production line?

 

[Failed Unit]

So if the designs are still available, why not just restart the 170 production line?

Good question, the engines can't be used but I have no idea why a 172 can't fit in a 170 set as the 172 is an evolution the principle is the same.

 

[Zoe]

Good question, the engines can't be used but I have no idea why a 172 can't fit in a 170 set as the 172 is an evolution the principle is the same.

Do you even need to build 172s? Why not just more 170s?

 

[Failed Unit]

Do you even need to build 172s? Why not just more 170s?

The engines, but scotrail have different engines. It probably is possible to build a 170 and find alternatives for components that are no longer made.

 

[tbtc]

But the turbo's are as off the shelf as any DMU, but XC can't (and others) can't extend them. It may be more of a problem with DMUs but from what I know you can't put a 172 trailer in a 170. Happy to be corrected and if you can maybe TPE and XC should be ordering some to make their 2 car 170s upto 4 car. I am sure many services need them and the 3 cars could be moved to other services. Nottingham - Cardiff 4 car and the 3 cars onto stansted. Likewise on TPE 185s back to Cleethorpes and have the 4 car 170s on busy north pennie routes.

Hypothetical and I know it won't happen, but imagine 100 extra centre coaches for 170s being built.

Scotrail run doubled-up 170s and 170s coupled to 158s, TPE run doubled-up 170s, LM run doubled=up 170s and 170s coupled to 153s, XC run doubled-up 170s...

As far as I understand, every TOC with 170s has them coupled to other units for a good portion of the day, with the exception of NXEA

So, if a hundred coaches were built, it'd allow several 170s to be extended to 3/4/5 coaches, which would free up a couple of dozen units that could be used elsewhere.

In fact, a five car 170 might be okay for some other XC services, albeit pathed to 100mph.

In essence, if enough are ordered to make the unit-cost reasonable then you'd end up with sufficient coaches to spare enough DMUs for a decent cascade

Otherwise the only likelyhood of increased length will be when the "central belt" electrification is completed in Scotland and FSR won't need so many 170s (of course when that happens, FSR will want to keep the 170s on secondary routes instead)

 

[Zoe]

The engines, but scotrail have different engines. It probably is possible to build a 170 and find alternatives for components that are no longer made.

Couldn't you ask the engine builder to restart their production line? The only reason I can see it wouldn't be allowed is if the engines no longer meet EU emissions rules.

 

[tbtc]

Couldn't you ask the engine builder to restart their production line? The only reason I can see it wouldn't be allowed is if the engines no longer meet EU emissions rules.

I've heard that emissions is the reason more 185 coaches aren't built

 

[Failed Unit]

Couldn't you ask the engine builder to restart their production line? The only reason I can see it wouldn't be allowed is if the engines no longer meet EU emissions rules.

Which I understand is the problem, but the 170431 & 432 have new engines so maybe that type could be used.

 

[222007]

Couldn't you ask the engine builder to restart their production line? The only reason I can see it wouldn't be allowed is if the engines no longer meet EU emissions rules.

Thats exactly why they are no longer availible

 

[IanXC]

If it really is too complicated to build new centre cars for 170s, why not reform along the lines of 2x 3car into 1x 2car and 1x 4car. Then rather than ordering new centre cars, order whole new units... bit of a cascade would be required to keep reasonably uniform fleets but seems to be a good way around the problem, with the added benefit that we don't end up with units where some cars have done many many more miles than others.

 

[Zoe]

I would have thought a new engine could be built that would be compatible with 170s though and so I can't think of anything that would then prevent the restarting of the 170 production line.

 

[The Planner]

Providing they havent got rid of the original jigs to make them.

 

[tbtc]

Providing they havent got rid of the original jigs to make them.

Would that make it impossible?

As I've said some companies make a market in selling products designed to be compatible with existing products (which were made by another manufacturer), in the way that I can get a mobile phone charger/ camera battery/ games console controller (etc) made by a different company to the one who made the phone/camera/console - they can "reverse engineer" something which will be compatible with the existing product, and provide a cheaper alternative.

Would the same work with trains?

 

[Zoe]

Would that make it impossible?

As far as I know, that's why they can't build more Voyagers, regardless of the fact that the engines are no longer in production. With the 390s the designs were obviously retained so it was quite short sighted to throw away the Voyager designs.

 

[tbtc]

As far as I know, that's why they can't build more Voyagers, regardless of the fact that the engines are no longer in production. With the 390s the designs were obviously retained so it was quite short sighted to throw away the Voyager designs.

But, here's an idea. In order to increase their Voyagers to Five Coaches, Virgin have "cannibalised" one Voyager, leaving only the two cabs and one centre coach (IIRC). These aren't used, as far as I am aware.

Send them to China, let the experts work out how to reverse-engineer them, then let them produce something which works in a Voyager formation.

 

[MCR247]

It is just two cabs from 144

 

[MCR247]

As far as I know, that's why they can't build more Voyagers, regardless of the fact that the engines are no longer in production. With the 390s the designs were obviously retained so it was quite short sighted to throw away the Voyager designs.

Of course they can build more voyagers! Where the hell did that rubbish come from?!?!

 

[Zoe]

Of course they can build more voyagers! Where the hell did that rubbish come from?!?!

See comments elsewhere about not having the jigs.

 

[MCR247]

So when Bombardier(!) offered to build more panto coaches, they must have forgotten they couldn't build anymore....

 

[tbtc]

It is just two cabs from 144

Sorry, I thought there was one spare "Centre" coach

Either way, two cabs should be sufficient for someone to work with to find how to build new coaches that are compatible with existing units.

There are probably enough Voyagers (in terms of units), we just need dozens of centre coaches for them, and this sounds like one way of doing it

With most electrical things these days you can work backwards from the "finished product" and find a way of building more/new ones which can work alongside (etc)

 

[Zoe]

There are probably enough Voyagers (in terms of units), we just need dozens of centre coaches for them, and this sounds like one way of doing it

The advantage of building more Voyagers would allow capacity to be doubled on the core section of the route and they would have the ability to split and run to different destinations.

 

[tbtc]

The advantage of building more Voyagers would allow capacity to be doubled on the core section of the route and they would have the ability to split and run to different destinations.

True, though if more were needed it'd be better to electrify through Chester to free up twenty units

Running doubled Voyagers is necessary on some trips at the moment for capacity. However, if all were long enough then the "drag" may be a reason not to do it

 

[Zoe]

True, though if more were needed it'd be better to electrify through Chester to free up twenty units

How about electrify to Chester and send the Voyagers to FGW to take over West of England services. Just in case the MML doesn't get electrified by the time the HSTs are life expired.

 

[tbtc]

How about electrify to Chester and send the Voyagers to FGW to take over West of England services. Just in case the MML doesn't get electrified by the time the HSTs are life expired.

Replace HSTs on the London - Devon/Cornwall route with Voyagers?

 

[Zoe]

Replace HSTs on the London - Devon/Cornwall route with Voyagers?

Well the plan seems to be to replace them with Meridians, if for some reason the MML doesn't get electrified but the line to Chester was then Voyagers could go to FGW for that route.

 

[The Planner]

I've heard that one too, Voyagers to run Padd - Penzances. Wire up to Chester and from there to Acton Grange/Runcorn, plus Blackpool and Windermere. Diversionary route city and no massive use for long distance diesels up there.

 

[swt_passenger]

See comments elsewhere about not having the jigs.

I decided some years ago that lack of jigs is a 'railway myth'!

If you order enough trains or carriages the builder will get out his drawings and build new jigs.

If you pay him enough, he'll build whatever you ask for - it's how they make money after all...

 

[FrozenPoints]

I decided some years ago that lack of jigs is a 'railway myth'!

If you order enough trains or carriages the builder will get out his drawings and build new jigs.

If you pay him enough, he'll build whatever you ask for - it's how they make money after all...

See comments elsewhere about not having the jigs.

Of course they can build more voyagers! Where the hell did that rubbish come from?!?!

What are 'jigs' exactly?

And having 9-car or 10-car voyagers would be handy or something along those lines for GWML