West Coast Franchise

[roversfan2001]

That's the whole point! Virgin is a 'sexier' brand than Stagecoach. The former being associated with trans-Atlantic travel, glamourous holidays and space tourism, the latter being associated with local buses. Note that SWT dropped the Stagecoach prefix many years ago and EMT never carried it. Even their main intercity bus brands (Megabus and Citylink) 'hide' the link with Stagecoach.

Very much sounds like they're profiting off Virgin's reputation then.

 

[Agent_c]

Very much sounds like they're profiting off Virgin's reputation then.

Its the business virgin are in - the brand business. Many are surprised to learn just how few Virgin companies have Branson ownership or involvement beyond franchising the name.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm fairly simple, as long as it remains as Virgin Trains (West Coast suffix optional) I'm not fussed. Never understood why Stagecoach have a 49% share yet no branding at all, I bet 'Joe Public' has no idea VTWC is 49% Stagecoach and VTEC 90%(!).

The next franchise holder could do with lengthening Pendolinos to more than 11 coaches (platform lengths allowing). Also, scrap the Voyagers, failing that, make them all 8 coaches (remove end cars from them all and join two together).

Stagecoach don't have any branding because they're a no frills bus company. Doesn't fit with Virgin's full service model.

There is some Stagecoach branding in Virgin's Birmingham and London offices, but not on public display.

Stagecoach traditionally have supplied the operational and financial nous behind the business.
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Very much sounds like they're profiting off Virgin's reputation then.

Piffle.

Are Virgin profiting off Stagecoach's solid ops knowledge?

Or maybe it's just a partnership?

 

[CosherB]

Very much sounds like they're profiting off Virgin's reputation then.

Is the concept of "joint venture" alien to you? :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Arriva are an awful, awful company. They won't spend a penny on investment, and if people think Virgin's fares are expensive, they ain't seen nothing yet!

Would you say that about Northern with all its new trains on order? Agreed it's early days.

The DfT hasn't even hinted at expanded services in its prospectus for ICWC.
It's all about "quality", ticketing and more/fewer stops.
Any new tilting train order will run into the "no tilt on HS2" problem with classic compatibles on the WCML.
If you buy more trains, what do you do with them after 2026?
The ICWC bids will be being formulated just as the final go ahead is given for HS2 (or not).
We are also presuming that the current Brexit impasse and change of government will not impact the franchising schedule. Still no news on East Anglia.
And XC's direct award has to be done in the next 3 months (no change there, probably).
It all affects the "mood" in the industry.

 

[roversfan2001]

Is the concept of "joint venture" alien to you? :roll:

So you're saying that Stagecoach provide 90% of the effort and resources into VTEC? I highly doubt it's anywhere near that level, therefore, they are receiving proportionally more than they are giving - thanks (indirectly) to the Virgin brand.

 

[AlterEgo]

So you're saying that Stagecoach provide 90% of the effort and resources into VTEC? I highly doubt it's anywhere near that level, therefore, they are receiving proportionally more than they are giving - thanks (indirectly) to the Virgin brand.

What on earth are you on about? It's a partnership! Stagecoach have a 90% stake in the company and it certainly means they're putting in...well, 90%!

The brand is simply Virgin.

It's like Virgin Media - look up their owners...

 

[absolutelymilk]

The DfT hasn't even hinted at expanded services in its prospectus for ICWC.
It's all about "quality", ticketing and more/fewer stops.
Any new tilting train order will run into the "no tilt on HS2" problem with classic compatibles on the WCML.
If you buy more trains, what do you do with them after 2026?
The ICWC bids will be being formulated just as the final go ahead is given for HS2 (or not).

Indeed, we will probably see the 9 car 390s made up to 11 car but nothing much apart from that in terms of new trains. As you say, the new franchise will likely be about improving the experience for passengers, e.g. free wifi, better lounges and information at stations

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed, we will probably see the 9 car 390s made up to 11 car but nothing much apart from that in terms of new trains. As you say, the new franchise will likely be about improving the experience for passengers, e.g. free wifi, better lounges and information at stations

I even doubt that will happen now. Imagine it would cost a fair bit.

 

[IanXC]

I suppose the XC direct award will give us some indication of the future of their 221 fleet, which may give us some indication of what will happen next on the ICWC franchise.

 

[DarloRich]

Going to depend quite significantly on how much disruption HS2 construction brings to Euston, Handsacre and Crewe before anyone makes a considered bid on how much profit it can make.

we have a winner!

 

[ainsworth74]

I even doubt that will happen now. Imagine it would cost a fair bit.

Indeed I was impressed they did it the first time! But that was for an order of 106 vehicles which, whilst not large, wasn't a small order. Any further order would be for 44 vehicles (unless any additional 390s are ordered as well) so the cost of restarting the production line, again, would probably be huge on a per vehicle basis.

Unless Alstom are desperate for work for the factory that built the 390s?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Indeed I was impressed they did it the first time! But that was for an order of 106 vehicles which, whilst not large, wasn't a small order. Any further order would be for 44 vehicles (unless any additional 390s are ordered as well) so the cost of restarting the production line, again, would probably be huge on a per vehicle basis.

Unless Alstom are desperate for work for the factory that built the 390s?

I suppose they could get a few more to replace the Voyagers on the London -Scotland via Birmingham route

 

[Robertj21a]

Are they physically capable of running with more than 11 carriages?
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Any particular reason why IEP does not appear to be being considered for XC?
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Arriva are an awful, awful company. They won't spend a penny on investment, and if people think Virgin's fares are expensive, they ain't seen nothing yet!

Disagree with you there. We need different companies, with different criteria, profit margin, management etc to provide a sensible level of competition. Having Arriva involved means that costs are kept in check by all companies bidding for a franchise.

What evidence do you have for believing that Arriva fares will be higher than Virgin ? - my evidence suggests the opposite.

 

[AlterEgo]

Disagree with you there. We need different companies, with different criteria, profit margin, management etc to provide a sensible level of competition. Having Arriva involved means that costs are kept in check by all companies bidding for a franchise.

What evidence do you have for believing that Arriva fares will be higher than Virgin ? - my evidence suggests the opposite.

XC fares are eye-watering...for a start.

I think it should be mentioned that TOCs aren't *necessarily* encouraged to compete with one another (hence VT/SC getting both EC and WC franchises), but more so with the car and the plane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the whole point! Virgin is a 'sexier' brand than Stagecoach. The former being associated with trans-Atlantic travel, glamourous holidays and space tourism, the latter being associated with local buses. Note that SWT dropped the Stagecoach prefix many years ago and EMT never carried it. Even their main intercity bus brands (Megabus and Citylink) 'hide' the link with Stagecoach.

Citylink is not pure Stagey, it's a joint venture with ComfortDelGro.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[transmanche]

Citylink is not pure Stagey, it's a joint venture with ComfortDelGro.

I know. Much like their joint ventures with Virgin... where the Stagecoach brand is not used.

 

[Hadders]

Sadly, I can't see the 9-car Pendolinos being lengthened. As well as the cost of reactivating a production line for a small order the additional carriages would need to be written off over 20-ish years rather than the 35-40 years that would be used for new trains. Doubt the sums would stack up.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Surely any order could be combined with the GNWR order of 4x 6-car 125mph tilting stock?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely any order could be combined with the GNWR order of 4x 6-car 125mph tilting stock?

They haven't ordered them yet.

 

[leomartin125]

What happened to First Group getting the WC franchise? I thought that the shambles that occured a few years back only gave Virgin more time on the West Coast, and that first Group would inevitably take up operations at some point... Maybe now?

 

[Huntergreed]

What happened to First Group getting the WC franchise? I thought that the shambles that occured a few years back only gave Virgin more time on the West Coast, and that first Group would inevitably take up operations at some point... Maybe now?

First will bid for it, as will Virgin, and the DfT will decide who gets the contract.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

What happened to First Group getting the WC franchise? I thought that the shambles that occured a few years back only gave Virgin more time on the West Coast, and that first Group would inevitably take up operations at some point... Maybe now?

The franchising round was cancelled and an interim franchise agreed with Virgin. It goes for a new franchising round for 2018 onwards.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What happened to First Group getting the WC franchise? I thought that the shambles that occured a few years back only gave Virgin more time on the West Coast, and that first Group would inevitably take up operations at some point... Maybe now?

There is going to be a full competition, ITT due out by the end of this year.
First has no special rights (nor has Virgin).
Virgin has had a direct award since 2012, extended by a year to 2018 so that SWT could be brought forward.
The DfT consultation period for the 2018 franchise has just finished.

Remember First is also short listed for East Anglia and South Western.
They probably wouldn't want/be capable of running both of these and ICWC (with GWR and TPE).

 

[Monty]

So you're saying that Stagecoach provide 90% of the effort and resources into VTEC? I highly doubt it's anywhere near that level, therefore, they are receiving proportionally more than they are giving - thanks (indirectly) to the Virgin brand.

The management of VTEC is very much led by Stagecoach, that includes involving managers from its EMT and SWT franchises.

 

[Philip Elliott]

The management of VTEC is very much led by Stagecoach, that includes involving managers from its EMT and SWT franchises.

Apart from all the VTWC managers on loan.....

 

[lincolnshire]

The franchising round was cancelled and an interim franchise agreed with Virgin. It goes for a new franchising round for 2018 onwards.

I wonder why they didn,t put in DOR railways to run the franchise or was it they was to busy running East Cost railways.

That should have been the fair way of doing things or was the Department of Transport frightened of taking on the Virgin media machine after they had been to court over the franchise.

I think another reason Stagecoach wanted to keep a low profile was at the time of the awarding of the original franchise for West Coast, they was seen as the bad boys who came into town and bought up the local bus company or went up against existing bus companies undercutting fares or running there bus beforehand and taking the passengers till only the one succeeded which usually was Stagecoach.

It was better to have a brand that people had heard of and was new to trains
and only been in to aeroplanes beforehand.

Be interesting to see what happens now we have a new Prime Minister running the outfit and see if it makes any difference.

 

[CosherB]

I wonder why they didn,t put in DOR railways to run the franchise or was it they was to busy running East Cost railways.

Because the simplest and cheapest solution was the status quo - i.e. a direct award.

Be interesting to see what happens now we have a new Prime Minister running the outfit and see if it makes any difference.

I'd imagine that the PM has bigger priorities on her personal plate at the moment, like extracting the UK from Europe and working out how to keep the lights on in the next 5 to 10 years.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wonder why they didn,t put in DOR railways to run the franchise or was it they was to busy running East Cost railways.

Because the franchise hadn't "failed".
It was the DfT which failed.

 

[3141]

I think another reason Stagecoach wanted to keep a low profile was at the time of the awarding of the original franchise for West Coast, they was seen as the bad boys who came into town and bought up the local bus company or went up against existing bus companies undercutting fares or running there bus beforehand and taking the passengers till only the one succeeded which usually was Stagecoach.

My recollection - and someone please correct me if I'm wrong - is that the original West Coast franchise was won solely by Virgin Rail Group. It was a few years later that Richard Branson raised the possibility of selling shares in part of the Group, and Stagecoach offered to buy a 49% stake. Therefore at the start of the franchise Stagecoach had no profile in it at all.