West Coast Franchise

[Huntergreed]

With the consultation period of the WCML franchise ending tomorrow, it means that we may be seeing a very different name on those pendolinos soon. Who would you like to see get the franchise and what do you think of the current service provided by Stagecoach and Virgin?

 

[thenorthern]

I would think the next franchise bid would come from Inter City Railways Limited (90% Stagecoach and 10% Virgin) who run the East Coast franchise rather than Virgin Rail Group (51% Virgin and 49% Stagecoach).

Given the fiasco 4 years ago I can't see anyone except a Virgin Group connected firm winning the franchise.

 

[All Line Rover]

I would like to see Virgin retain it (as majority shareholder). Most of the negative changes in recent years have been indirect results of decisions made by the Department for Transport. These could be easily reversed if appropriate investment is agreed upon.

VTEC do a good enough job but they don't seem quite as good as VTWC. Just my opinion.

 

[IanXC]

I think the key factor in a Virgin bid (of whatever complexion) is whether the DfT include their draft requirement for a 'geograhical brand'.

 

[Agent_c]

What would a regional brand look like: London, Midland and Scotland (By Virgin)?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Having co-operation on the main two London to Scotland routes is good for passengers, allowing quick resolutions in the event of problems (stories on here and Twitter of people getting transferred between the two routes after delays and cancellations).

I don't think it would improve competition (ie. cut prices) if the lines had different franchisees as they are still primarily competing with planes, coaches and cars.

 

[All Line Rover]

I have noticed that they are already leaning in the direction of calling themselves Virgin Trains West Coast.

 

[Huntergreed]

I kinda want first to win just to see what happens

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I have noticed that they are already leaning in the direction of calling themselves Virgin Trains West Coast.

AFAIK the intention was that they would merge into a single brand pretty quickly - I wonder if they were waiting to see how this new franchise worked out.

I would expect, if Intercity Group win out this time, meaning that the West and East Coast are literally the same make-up, they will merge into a single branding. Would make promotions a lot easier.

 

[Huntergreed]

AFAIK the intention was that they would merge into a single brand pretty quickly - I wonder if they were waiting to see how this new franchise worked out.

I would expect, if Intercity Group win out this time, meaning that the West and East Coast are literally the same make-up, they will merge into a single branding. Would make promotions a lot easier.

I wonder what they would call themselves, it would be quite ironic to arrive back at 'intercity' days

 

[SaveECRewards]

I have noticed that they are already leaning in the direction of calling themselves Virgin Trains West Coast.

They definitely need to do something about the brand confusion and calling themselves Virgin Trains West Coast would be a good start. Use VT in marketing and in areas where there's no confusion and use VTEC and VTWC where the distinction is needed.

Recently I got an invite for the Virgin Trains customer panel. I thought it was for VTEC (as I travel more in a month on VTEC than I do in a year on VTWC) but it turned out to be for VTWC. I'm happy enough to give my feedback but seemed odd it was the company I only occasionally use that asked me to join (was it sent to everyone registered with them?)

 

[Huntergreed]

They definitely need to do something about the brand confusion and calling themselves Virgin Trains West Coast would be a good start. Use VT in marketing and in areas where there's no confusion and use VTEC and VTWC where the distinction is needed.

Recently I got an invite for the Virgin Trains customer panel. I thought it was for VTEC (as I travel more in a month on VTEC than I do in a year on VTWC) but it turned out to be for VTWC. I'm happy enough to give my feedback but seemed odd it was the company I only occasionally use that asked me to join (was it sent to everyone registered with them?)

It doesn't help when they call themselves "Virgin Trains" on the east coast :roll:

 

[dk1]

It doesn't help when they call themselves "Virgin Trains" on the east coast :roll:

Agreed, that is plain annoying. Most of us are well educated such but Joe Public sees it as Virgin Trains. The poor guys in Twitter Towers waste so much time explaining.

 

[AlterEgo]

Let's see what the ITT brings, and what the companies put in their bids first.

 

[WatcherZero]

The word is the Government wanted a placeholder franchise focused on cost savings (efficiency gained from fewer station calls so less increase to passenger capacity required and hence no need for new trains ahead of HS2).

However everyone has pretty much told them that's a stupid idea as you would be destroying the local demand that is supposed to be the bread and butter after HS2 opens in light of faster direct services which wont even exist after the franchise ends.

Whats the point of growing a market that will no longer be served and hurting a market that will be.

 

[387star]

A few years ago weren't First to completely rebuild the pendolino interiors were there any mock ups? They actually as much as said the present interiors were not fit for purpose

More electric trains are a given to reduce voyager dependancy presumably in the fo,rm of bi modes so they can run off the wires with all voyagers surely eventually to be with crosscountry (and possibly meridians too)

 

[Hadders]

I hope Virgin Rail Group retain it. They've been a competent operator and their brand name brings a degree of glamour to the railways (I know it doesn't for us lot on here but it does for Joe Public).

God help us if Govia, Arriva or Serco get it...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

A few years ago weren't First to completely rebuild the pendolino interiors were there any mock ups? They actually as much as said the present interiors were not fit for purpose

More electric trains are a given to reduce voyager dependancy presumably in the fo,rm of bi modes so they can run off the wires with all voyagers surely eventually to be with crosscountry (and possibly meridians too)

There's no tilting bi-mode units as yet, and nobody manufacturer is interested given the small market.

The usual plans will appear depending on who bids - more EMUs (Pendolinos/CAF tilting) with drags to Holyhead, more DMUs (ex XC Super Voyagers) with no drags to Holyhead, or more EMUs (Pendolinos/CAF tilting) with no drags to Holyhead.

 

[All Line Rover]

All the Pendolinos need to be 11 cars in length. HS2 is a long way off and, while I don't expect it to be cancelled, the opening dates for each phase could be delayed depending on the state of the economy.

The Voyagers are more problematic. All of the VTWC guards seem to hate them, always mentioning that they are too short. But why acquire additional diesel trains to run primarily under electric wires?

 

[roversfan2001]

I'm fairly simple, as long as it remains as Virgin Trains (West Coast suffix optional) I'm not fussed. Never understood why Stagecoach have a 49% share yet no branding at all, I bet 'Joe Public' has no idea VTWC is 49% Stagecoach and VTEC 90%(!).

The next franchise holder could do with lengthening Pendolinos to more than 11 coaches (platform lengths allowing). Also, scrap the Voyagers, failing that, make them all 8 coaches (remove end cars from them all and join two together).

 

[fgwrich]

All the Pendolinos need to be 11 cars in length. HS2 is a long way off and, while I don't expect it to be cancelled, the opening dates for each phase could be delayed depending on the state of the economy.

The Voyagers are more problematic. All of the VTWC guards seem to hate them, always mentioning that they are too short. But why acquire additional diesel trains to run primarily under electric wires?

Length wise, unless a solution to replace them is found then could it work the other way with the XC franchise bringing in replacements and sending some 221s back to VWC?

I hope Virgin Rail Group retain it. They've been a competent operator and their brand name brings a degree of glamour to the railways (I know it doesn't for us lot on here but it does for Joe Public).

God help us if Govia, Arriva or Serco get it...

Govia I think it's fair to say have rather rapidly outstretched themselves with TSGN - They also seem to pick up or bid for the more of the local bids (Southern/SouthEastern/LM/Northern) than the Intercity franchises. That said, I can see Arriva / First / Virgin Stagecoach put their hat into the ring for it. Will we see an attempted return of the beleaguered NX to the franchising party too*? Serco don't seem to have made too bad a job of the Caley sleeper, but as this is a bigger intercity franchise i'd say would be unlikely to bid for this one as well.


*God help us if they decided to bid, but are still not seen with a good reputation so may remain in hiding.

 

[All Line Rover]

The next franchise holder could do with lengthening Pendolinos to more than 11 coaches (platform lengths allowing). Also, scrap the Voyagers, failing that, make them all 8 coaches (remove end cars from them all and join two together).

Are they physically capable of running with more than 11 carriages?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Length wise, unless a solution to replace them is found then could it work the other way with the XC franchise bringing in replacements and sending some 221s back to VWC?

Any particular reason why IEP does not appear to be being considered for XC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see Arriva / First / Virgin Stagecoach put their hat into the ring for it.

Arriva are an awful, awful company. They won't spend a penny on investment, and if people think Virgin's fares are expensive, they ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[roversfan2001]

Are they physically capable of running with more than 11 carriages?

I'd hope so, if not then that's poor future-proofing, HS2 is at least 10 years away, probably 50 years before HS[insert high number here] reaches Scotland. 11 coaches would be woefully inadequate before long.

 

[The Planner]

Going to depend quite significantly on how much disruption HS2 construction brings to Euston, Handsacre and Crewe before anyone makes a considered bid on how much profit it can make.

 

[cjmillsnun]

All the Pendolinos need to be 11 cars in length. HS2 is a long way off and, while I don't expect it to be cancelled, the opening dates for each phase could be delayed depending on the state of the economy.

The Voyagers are more problematic. All of the VTWC guards seem to hate them, always mentioning that they are too short. But why acquire additional diesel trains to run primarily under electric wires?

Will DfT allow a new build of trailer cars to strengthen the last few 9 car sets? Will Alstom want to build them?

The answer to both questions is probably not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva are an awful, awful company. They won't spend a penny on investment, and if people think Virgin's fares are expensive, they ain't seen nothing yet!

Funny, they seem to have invested a lot in Chiltern and brought in additional stock on ATW.

XC is a different matter though.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Are they physically capable of running with more than 11 carriages?

Any particular reason why IEP does not appear to be being considered for XC?

Alstom Pendolino sets can cope with additional carriages, the station and platform infrastructure can't without further modification.

IEP/AT300 is being considered for XC but the franchise has some time to run yet and there are some issues that would need resolved first concerning gauging, linespeeds on unelectrified routes and facilities cover.

There's also Class 222 stock from the Midland Main Line electrification to deal with.

 

[All Line Rover]

Will DfT allow a new build of trailer cars to strengthen the last few 9 car sets? Will Alstom want to build them?

The answer to both questions is probably not.

I remember it being said previously on this forum that lengthening any Pendolinos to 11 cars was out of the question.

Funny, they seem to have invested a lot in Chiltern and brought in additional stock on ATW.

XC is a different matter though.

A small amount of background information would reveal that the impetus behind Chiltern can hardly be attributed to Arriva.

All I have seen from Arriva is a bare-bones, high-fare, invest-only-when-forced-to-do-so approach. Even Grand Central is evidence of this, minus the high fares.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's also Class 222 stock from the Midland Main Line electrification to deal with.

If the 222s went to XC and a similar number of 5-car 221s were displaced to VTWC, VTWC's capacity problems on the Voyagers would be solved overnight.

 

[thenorthern]

Will the franchise have a requirement to order new trains?

I think if there are any new trains they would have to be dual diesel and electric and tilting which I don't see being built for a while.

 

[transmanche]

Never understood why Stagecoach have a 49% share yet no branding at all, I bet 'Joe Public' has no idea VTWC is 49% Stagecoach and VTEC 90%(!).

That's the whole point! Virgin is a 'sexier' brand than Stagecoach. The former being associated with trans-Atlantic travel, glamourous holidays and space tourism, the latter being associated with local buses. Note that SWT dropped the Stagecoach prefix many years ago and EMT never carried it. Even their main intercity bus brands (Megabus and Citylink) 'hide' the link with Stagecoach.

 

[cjmillsnun]

A small amount of background information would reveal that the impetus behind Chiltern can hardly be attributed to Arriva.

All I have seen from Arriva is a bare-bones, high-fare, invest-only-when-forced-to-do-so approach. Even Grand Central is evidence of this, minus the high fares.

Arriva have controlled the purse strings since 2011. Money spent by them includes the Mk3 door conversions. They were not compelled in any way to do that. The Mk3s were usable as they were and could've just had a bare bones livery change.