West Coast franchise delayed to Jan 2013

[WatcherZero]

Indeed Virgin was 'rescued' because the delays in the WCML uprgade and the eventual canning of 140mph running both broke its business model and were out of its control while not technically 'act of god' like natural disasters or the economy which the government could claim was tough luck.

Virgin offered to itself contribute to bringing the stock into service early offering to return extra revenues if Dft covered the leasing and maintence costs (they were more concerned with over crowding affecting the existing business than making money from the stock) but I believe the Dfts reticense wasnt so much it was a bad deal but that they didnt want to be increasing spending at a time of cuts. Fundamentally no matter how good a deal they wernt prepared to actually increase subsidy payments.

 

[387star]

2013 will be busy with Northern, C2C and perhaps East Coast also to deal with...

I will be very interested in the Northern Rail franchise spec from 2013 and if there will be mass scrapping of pacers. Probably not though!

 

[YorkshireBear]

2013 will be busy with Northern, C2C and perhaps East Coast also to deal with...

I will be very interested in the Northern Rail franchise spec from 2013 and if there will be mass scrapping of pacers. Probably not though!

i would hope the northern franchise has all its lessons learnt from last time.
It needs to be in the contract that they need new trains and to start to get rid of pacers from really unsuitable routes as fast as possible, the routes which a pacer is fine on can last for a while.

I think virgin should win it only if they have a good bid. We want the company that is gonna be the most investing and run the bets service.

 

[Anvil1984]

Northern franchise has to have some form of pacer replacement available and they will have to refurbish the majority of the fleet with DDA coming up, currently only the 333's meet this.

Back to West Coast, I would like to see Virgin win this again (or be promised behind the scenes the East Coast one) , as a TOC I have liked the way they have operated and have promoted themselves in the public (on television adverts for instance) on service and not "look how cheap we can sell you tickets for". The only thing I would do though is make sure Virgin don't keep hiking up their Anytime fares which per mile must have some of the highest fares. They have had to re-negotiate but that is more down to the failings of others to do schemes on time and with other hiccups like Greyrigg. It can't help when Network Rail shut the line south of Birmingham so you have to go on a diversion, that isnt going to attract custom

 

[All Line Rover]

Back to West Coast, I would like to see Virgin win this again (or be promised behind the scenes the East Coast one)

I don't want them winning the East Coast franchise, because I want them staying here in the west of England!

 

[Anvil1984]

I don't want them winning the East Coast franchise, because I want them staying here in the west of England!

I'm biased as I'm ex Virgin XC staff, then went through a couple of Arriva XC years now Northern in my little railway career and Virgin do look after the staff well which of course rubs off on to the passengers as you want to be there more.

I don't really think Virgin have done much wrong to deserve kicking off the West Coast, if they do get pushed off it will be down to the way franchising is run, (renewed on a financial threshold and not a quality one) other than anything else

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The FT today says a 9-month WCML extension for VT is not yet agreed and it may go to Directly Operated Railways in the interim.

Looks like chaos to me.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92c40070-7ff4-11e0-b018-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1MbLenn83

 

[tbtc]

The FT today says a 9-month WCML extension for VT is not yet agreed and it may go to Directly Operated Railways in the interim.

Looks like chaos to me.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92c40070-7ff4-11e0-b018-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1MbLenn83

I wonder why they didn't consider DOR for the short term East Anglia franchise?

 

[All Line Rover]

The FT today says a 9-month WCML extension for VT is not yet agreed and it may go to Directly Operated Railways in the interim.

Looks like chaos to me.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/92c40070-7ff4-11e0-b018-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1MbLenn83

Directly Operated Railways! Have they gone mad!?

 

[WatcherZero]

I would put it down to negotiating strategy, basically telling Virgin they are not the only option.

 

[Masbroughlad]

What a complete mess and how much money has been wasted so far. Frightening.

No wonder the railways end up in such a mess.

Given how 'good' West coast is, a swift process would have been easier?

I am off to find a wall to bang my head against......

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/05/17-plans-to-replace-west-coast.html

Surely it will have to go out to initial tender again?

 

[EWS 58038]

i would hope the northern franchise has all its lessons learnt from last time.
It needs to be in the contract that they need new trains and to start to get rid of pacers from really unsuitable routes as fast as possible, the routes which a pacer is fine on can last for a while.

I think virgin should win it only if they have a good bid. We want the company that is gonna be the most investing and run the bets service.

According to Captain Deltic new rolling stock orders are something of the past. Almost two years have past without any new order.

I think a Stadler GTW (UK adapted version) would pretty well qualify to replace the Pacers... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_GTW

 

[WatcherZero]

Thats a bit small for a pacer replacement, its articulated but essentially a single rail car.

 

[sprinterguy]

Thats a bit small for a pacer replacement, its articulated but essentially a single rail car.

The Pacers aren’t exactly lengthy either though, compared to other multiple units. I too can see the Stadler GTW as being the modern equivalent of the Pacer, they look to be a pretty much like for like equivalent in terms of train length and capacity, as well as for lousy door arrangements as regards fast loading and unloading at stations. Of course I’d prefer something constituting more than a like for like replacement to take the place of the Pacers: A decent order of 172s, for example.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely it will have to go out to initial tender again?

Of course, Virgin might have declined the extension if the terms were adverse, much like First recently did on GW.
If so the ball will be back with DfT.

As I understand it these short extensions are on terms fixed at the start of the franchise and are not a "renegotiation".

Yet another factor is that DfT Rail is "under new management" and they may well be wanting to ditch the old guard's processes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well its the same length as a two car 142 (30m) though it has a large central unusable area and seats less than a single two car 142 which often work in multiple for most of the day and are full already, where the engine is housed and theres just a narrow corridor between cars which makes maintence easier (and allows the low floor versions) but is wasted passenger space. The door arrangement also would be totally unsuitable for urban or suburban work with half the boarding speed of a pacer. It is a tram-train with low and high floor versions so if it was extended slightly so it had 4 doors/side it may be useful for tram-train routes.

One thing I just thought of though is it has a narrow corridor through the engine articulated section already, it may not be possible for corridors at all in UK gauge.

 

[Anvil1984]

To be honest I don't believe in like for like Pacer replacement, I believe in Pacer displacement by increasing the quality of the units at the top and filtering the lesser units down. Ok the costs are higher but in my opinion so are the long term gains balancing it out.
The likes of Northern need a fleet of 2 or 3 car full length stock, rail buses have been outgrown and 153 should be barred from working solo. Class 172s could fill a gap, if we look at local trains on the continent maybe a Bombardier Talent would do. Just not a like dor like replacement

 

[sprinterguy]

I too believe that Pacer replacement on a like for like, seat for seat basis isn’t the way to go, and something better is needed, but I cannot disagree with the original statement that the Stadler GTW is certainly the modern day Pacer equivalent: A bit hopeless for commuter runs, but would probably fare reasonably well on rural services.

Back to the original topic, this seems to be a strange decision from the DfT: On one hand they are extending the West Coast franchise for an additional ten months, but on the other they are setting up a caretaker franchise for only a matter of months for the Greater Anglia franchise. The suggestion that the DfT will take it under their wing and operate it through DOR for the additional ten months is exceedingly bizarre. And all this after they have already tendered the franchise to prospective bidders: Would it have been so much harder to make this decision before the franchise was let?

I’d be happy to see Virgin retain the franchise in the future: They have developed a strong, well recognised brand that the general public are well aware of and provide a good level of service. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

 

[EWS 58038]

DOR EastCoast
DOR WestCoast

Now... let's talk about monopoly's and why Virgin was banned from bidding on the EastCoast franchise when GNER went into administration...

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course, Virgin might have declined the extension if the terms were adverse, much like First recently did on GW.
If so the ball will be back with DfT.

As I understand it these short extensions are on terms fixed at the start of the franchise and are not a "renegotiation".

There are two slightly different scenarios - in the case of FGW there has always been a three year option - which FGW are not taking up. The media have referred to this as 'handing in the keys' for some reason. Virgin's West Coast contract did not have a comparable optional extension.

However all franchises do include a provision for an extension of about 6 months (in fact it's 28 weeks - 7 reporting periods) on existing terms if DfT wan't to move the end date for administrative reasons, which would normally be able to cover something like the 2012 games, however DfT seem to have initially chosen not to do this.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

DOR EastCoast
DOR WestCoast

Now... let's talk about monopoly's and why Virgin was banned from bidding on the EastCoast franchise when GNER went into administration...

That's not correct - Virgin were not banned from bidding for the ECML back in 2007. Remarkable how these myths develop...

Virgin and Stagecoach were a prequalified bidder, under the name 'Intercity Railways Ltd'. The problem may heve been that the bid included GNER. Here's Staegoach's press release expressing their disappointment at not being selected:

http://www.stagecoachgroup.com/scg/media/press/pr2007/2007-08-14/

 

[185]

DOR EastCoast
DOR WestCoast

Now... let's talk about monopoly's and why Virgin was banned from bidding on the EastCoast franchise when GNER went into administration...

It's a different story when it's Me, You and Great Britain Ltd pocketing the profits, rather than a man with a beard and a yacht.

 

[WestCoast]

It's a different story when it's Me, You and Great Britain Ltd pocketing the profits, rather than a man with a beard and a yacht.

All the 'profitable' franchises could be operated by DOR, what about "British Rail" for a name? Oh wait....

 

[tbtc]

To be honest I don't believe in like for like Pacer replacement, I believe in Pacer displacement by increasing the quality of the units at the top and filtering the lesser units down

The trouble I have with "cascades" is that you can't just shuffle units down the ranks indefinitely. If we don't build new "basic" DMUs then we'll end up with 158s on "stopper" services - we need something simple with wide doors and decent acceleration (doesn't need to do 100mph or anything fancy, just cope with frequently stopping services with quick "dwell" times at stations).

100 172s would do nicely. Letting Voyagers replace Turbostars to replace 158s to cascade further down the food chain is a bad idea IMHO

 

[Masbroughlad]

Getting back on track.... When will we get some more news on West Coast?

It is starting to look like the whole thing is a bit of a dog's dinner!

 

[Nym]

Am I the only one that would like one of the bidders to propose the lengthening and addition of panto/transformer cars to the 221 fleet in it's entirety, and ordering more pendos? Then the DfT turn them down...

Echos of a 1997 bid for the ECML anyone?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Echos of a 1997 bid for the ECML anyone?

What happened then?

 

[Skimble19]

Isn't always a dogs dinner with the DFT though?!

As for the suggestion of the Barbielino finally coming to life - great news! To be fair, DOR has done a great job on East Coast so far, so people need not worry about them being some kind of NXEC and coming along and slashing anything and everything or whatever..

 

[Masbroughlad]

It just does not make sense to give the TOC to a new operator (DOR) for a few months. Surely just extend Virgin's contract until franchise renewal time....

Or am I/are we missing something? Could DOR have a bigger role in our railways in the future.

Can somebody remind me if we have had any franchise renewals (of significant length) since the General Election last year?

Is there a bigger agenda to come? As a result of McNulty or otherwise? Or is it just another cock up?

 

[Windsorian]

Hate to mention this but the 5 month long HS2 consultation is due to end on 29th July, though by now the DfT will already have a fair idea of the numbers of those for and against the proposal.

The government decision on HS2 is expected by "the end of this year" which usually means in the week before parliament breaks up for the 2011 Christmas recess.

Could it be that the DfT already know the way the consultation is heading and allowance is already being made for the the new WCML franchise to reflect the outcome ???

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hate to mention this but the 5 month long HS2 consultation is due to end on 29th July, though by now the DfT will already have a fair idea of the numbers of those for and against the proposal.

The government decision on HS2 is expected by "the end of this year" which usually means in the week before parliament breaks up for the 2011 Christmas recess.

Could it be that the DfT already know the way the consultation is heading and allowance is already being made for the the new WCML franchise to reflect the outcome ???

hasnt thought of that, dont know whether i should be happy or sad...